37 replies to this topic

[On Stranger Tides]

It seems that thar be a shortage of actual Golden Age Piracy Mocs. My past Two Mocs is the start of me doing actual pirates doing actual piraty things. There Is so much army building and Napoleonic builds, but no real pirates. In the old Classic Pirate sets, every time there was an Imperial(redcoat or bluecoat) they were normally fighting pirates. I'd like to see some pirate Mocs between 1680-1730... My memory or browsing might serve me wrong, but I do not think I've seen a historical Pirate ship build. Now I just wanna clear up that I am not ranting or singling anyone out, I have just been wondering If anyone else has noticed these things..
                                                                          Captain Jesse CT Mims

[Foremast Jack]

While I have noticed what you're talking about, it has never bothered me since I'm a great fan of the Napoleonic Era. I think there are quite a few more piratical things being made than you realize. There are certainly quite a few ships that would satisfy the requirements in the ship index.

[On Stranger Tides]

Foremast Jack, on 26 January 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

While I have noticed what you're talking about, it has never bothered me since I'm a great fan of the Napoleonic Era. I think there are quite a few more piratical things being made than you realize. There are certainly quite a few ships that would satisfy the requirements in the ship index.

But shouldn't Napoleonic go in Historical?

[Foremast Jack]

I think you could just as easily argue that "pirates" should be in historical.

But since pirates definitely deserve their own forum, and there was quite a bit of sanctioned piracy (as well as the normal kind ) during the Napoleonic Wars so I think it's in the right place.

[On Stranger Tides]

I know it is all semantics, but imo, Privateers aren't pirate. The world's navy basically had piracy stamped out in the 1730's.

[kurigan]

Lead by example.

[On Stranger Tides]

kurigan, on 26 January 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

Lead by example.

Two in the hole

[kurigan]

To be sure, I had written a much longer post, but would rather not be checked simply for standing up and offering correction. I will say this however; you are off base on several points. There are plenty of pirate specific MOCs. Piracy has never been stamped out and is still a problem today. The Napoleonic Era is expressedly stated as part of this forum’s intended period. Your land based scenes are nice but if

Quote

“I'd like to see some pirate Mocs between 1680-1730... My memory or browsing might serve me wrong, but I do not think I've seen a historical Pirate ship build”

, then I suggest you be the one to fill the void, if in fact there is a void.



I’ll also submit a query to you: What does make a vessel a “Pirate Ship”?

[Admiral Croissant]

While it's okay to ask for more pirate MOCs, your statement about "no real pirates" is incorrect.
There are at least 6 pirate MOCs on the first page now, of which a few are pirate ships.
Also, I can spot only three army topics on the first page, about 5 Napoleonic and a few Islander MOCs.
IMO that's a nice variety of MOCs.
I think only pirates is very specific and a pirate ship isn't very different from another sailing ship, except for the flag.
And a pirates life would be mixed within the life of the 17th or 18th century, so why not make those MOCs too?
Even TLG mixes those two factions within the pirates theme.
When I look at the first page I don't see less Pirate MOCs than other themed MOCs.
And if we would do only pirates, I'm afraid there would hardly be any need to have it in a seperate forum due to the small number of MOCs..

That's how I feel about it

[Sebeus I]

As far as I know in the time ships were not build with the purpose of pirating, a ship was considered a pirate ship when it sailed under a pirateflag.
There are a lot ships with imperial flags lately but I can tell you that I'm waiting to post a pirateship myself.
Here's a preview;



Now don't tell me this isn't piraty enough  
skulls on the sails, bones on the prow and a pirate flag ofcourse  

[SkaForHire]

On Stranger Tides, on 26 January 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

I know it is all semantics, but imo, Privateers aren't pirate. The world's navy basically had piracy stamped out in the 1730's.

The dissertation I am writing right now says otherwise...

The Golden Age was just the largest wave of piracy. The Napoleonic period was the second in the Caribbean area at least. These are not truly privateers either. These are a bunch of guys sailing around with different flags, and saying that they had permissions from new Latin American countries, or from France, but in reality very few had any legitimate papers. Additionally, many of those new nations that issued the letters didn't exist very long at all, where you have some of the pirates roaming around the Gulf of Mexico claiming they had a letter of marque from a place that had not existed (the Spanish stamped them out in counter revolution) for five or more years. These people were surely pirates.

Back to the Golden Age, if you want to get "historical" then you are not going to have too many MOCs of navies attacking pirates. In the early part, this would be the job of pirate hunters (privateers) and when Queen Annes War ends (1715), finally the Royal Navy would start entering the fray (post 1720s). And in that case, you would need to make a bunch of large ships against a few pirate dinghies and sloops...

I think as MOCing goes, you are going to see waves. Napoleonics traditionally have a large fan base that is going to be steady, where the "hotness" of pirates is circular. We are probably approaching a down period in popular culture when it comes to piracy - even with a fifth PoC coming out. Pirates, like Ninjas, can't stay "sexy" (a term we academics like to use for a briefly hot topic) forever. I think this applies to Lego and MOCing too.

[On Stranger Tides]

SkaForHire, on 29 January 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

The dissertation I am writing right now says otherwise...

The Golden Age was just the largest wave of piracy. The Napoleonic period was the second in the Caribbean area at least. These are not truly privateers either. These are a bunch of guys sailing around with different flags, and saying that they had permissions from new Latin American countries, or from France, but in reality very few had any legitimate papers. Additionally, many of those new nations that issued the letters didn't exist very long at all, where you have some of the pirates roaming around the Gulf of Mexico claiming they had a letter of marque from a place that had not existed (the Spanish stamped them out in counter revolution) for five or more years. These people were surely pirates.

Back to the Golden Age, if you want to get "historical" then you are not going to have too many MOCs of navies attacking pirates. In the early part, this would be the job of pirate hunters (privateers) and when Queen Annes War ends (1715), finally the Royal Navy would start entering the fray (post 1720s). And in that case, you would need to make a bunch of large ships against a few pirate dinghies and sloops...

I think as MOCing goes, you are going to see waves. Napoleonics traditionally have a large fan base that is going to be steady, where the "hotness" of pirates is circular. We are probably approaching a down period in popular culture when it comes to piracy - even with a fifth PoC coming out. Pirates, like Ninjas, can't stay "sexy" (a term we academics like to use for a briefly hot topic) forever. I think this applies to Lego and MOCing too.

I am too a History major and there's not much your going to say that I don't know. I was just saying when people hear pirate, it is the golden age they're thinking of.

[Sebeus I]

Is it really necessary to go all historical here ?
For me pirates is about drunken scallywags capturing a ship and decide to go haul in some treasure or steal some from fancy folks at sea,
Pirates don't care about things being historically correct, they want it to be shiny, tasty or busty, simple as that  

[Foremast Jack]

Sebeus Iniwum, on 29 January 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

... shiny, tasty or busty...

Such eloquence!

[SkaForHire]

On Stranger Tides, on 29 January 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I am too a History major and there's not much your going to say that I don't know. I was just saying when people hear pirate, it is the golden age they're thinking of.

I beg to differ. For example in the US, if you were talking to someone in Louisiana about pirates, they are probably thinking Lafitte.

Additionally, most people don't understand the historical context of piracy (And I am not saying you don't, just talking here). The perception of piracy portrayed in classic Hollywood is really what people are thinking about. If you look at the movies that made this image, most of them are actually about English privateers in the buccaneering age, not pirates in the Golden Age! (The Sea Hawk, Captain Blood) The whole black legend that revolves around the Spanish colonial period to this day is an English representation that is repeated over and over again in film and in books. That is why most pirates in these movies are actually Spanish, as you know it was most often everyone but the Spanish plundering the Spanish.

Anyway, on the topic of the forum, perhaps we need a competition to get some "Golden Age" MOCs going? Seems to be working over in Historical with Historica.

[On Stranger Tides]

SkaForHire, on 01 February 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I beg to differ. For example in the US, if you were talking to someone in Louisiana about pirates, they are probably thinking Lafitte.

Additionally, most people don't understand the historical context of piracy (And I am not saying you don't, just talking here). The perception of piracy portrayed in classic Hollywood is really what people are thinking about. If you look at the movies that made this image, most of them are actually about English privateers in the buccaneering age, not pirates in the Golden Age! (The Sea Hawk, Captain Blood) The whole black legend that revolves around the Spanish colonial period to this day is an English representation that is repeated over and over again in film and in books. That is why most pirates in these movies are actually Spanish, as you know it was most often everyone but the Spanish plundering the Spanish.

Anyway, on the topic of the forum, perhaps we need a competition to get some "Golden Age" MOCs going? Seems to be working over in Historical with Historica.

No offense, but I bet if u asked a normal person what century the golden age was they wouldn't know in which order the civil what, revolution, and Columbus sailed were. hahah.
I'm up for the challange

Edited by On Stranger Tides, 01 February 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[SkaForHire]

On Stranger Tides, on 01 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

No offense, but I bet if u asked a normal person what century the golden age was they wouldn't know in which order the civil what, revolution, and Columbus sailed were. hahah.
I'm up for the challange

You are absolutely right, I teach college history - I have a hard enough time trying to get them to remember the dates of the Revolution or Civil War, let alone anything else. That stands at a rich major private or at community college, Americans are ignorant of their history.

I was saying that if you asked them to name a pirate, they would give you a splattering of different names (or attempts at a name) from different eras. I once got an essay about how Captain Morgan was a great rum producer from North Carolina during the Civil War, and the owner of a blockade runner that saved General Robert E. Lee. I thought the kid was kidding, I wrote on his test, "Good story, better than leaving it blank, I can throw you a few points for creativity." He came to me the next semester (it was a final) and told me that he was totally serious and he did not like that I thought he made it up on purpose. I told him to take the points and run then. ha. I don't know where he got his information from, maybe someone was having fun changing the wikipedia page the night before the test while he was cramming. Or maybe he spent the night before cramming Captain down his gullet.

[Admiral Croissant]

Please either stay on topic or say nothing.
This is a LEGO forum in the first place so keep it a bit more LEGO related

[SkaForHire]

Admiral Croissant, on 04 February 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Please either stay on topic or say nothing.
This is a LEGO forum in the first place so keep it a bit more LEGO related

Yes, but the whole conversation is related to what type of MOCs are relevant to the Golden age, and the perception of the Golden age. If you don't allow for some off topic, then we are really  going to spin our wheels here. Again, I am not sure why the pirates forum staff as of late have been clamping down when something strays the slightest bit. Yes, it is a Lego pirate forum, but doesn't heavy censorship really hinder creativity - besides, it is not like we are talking about something completely random here, it IS related to pirate history. The point of community is that we build friendships, this isn't just a place where we post pics of what we are working on - we can do that on Brickshelf. We communicate with one another here and enjoy the hobby with others.  I mean, most of us have been talking to one another for years (I can't believe it has been 6 for me) in these forums, we are bound to say stuff not necessarily on topic, but still related to the topic. I just don't see why things have gotten so strict over the last couple years - this forum never really got that off topic to begin with. There was a point early on in my Eurobricks career, that I never loaded another forum than this one. It just seems as of late the camaraderie has broken down. Now I am not blaming the moderators (it is a tough job to moderate forums, I know that), but this post may really show a few reasons why this is so.

For example the OP wants to see more Golden Age stuff, he didn't understand why there was not more. Is this a fundamental problem with the Pirates genre, are we slowly losing those interested in the core? Are most people using this forum  primarily interested in Napoleonics instead? I don't think that is necessarily true, but it does seem like things are a bit slower around here nowadays. (Or maybe just a bit repetitive?)

Lastly, telling people basically to  shut up doesn't solve anything.  That was a rude way to put that. We can sit around and post only set reviews and MOCs, or we can have a little bit of discussion, posts our MOCs, and set reviews, and hopes of new pirates to come. I personally think a multidimensional, alive forum that gets slightly off topic once in a while is better than one that seems stale and cold.  But that is my two cents.

But... Back to another thing I posted a few posts back, and slightly a tangent off that rant - what about a community build? Bluecoats V. Redcoats was a great event, and it really livened the forum. Or how about something somewhat like Historica over in the History forum? Heck, I will gladly help run it after May 15 if there is enough interest. There might be close to 100 people participating over there, think of the influx of building and stories we could have in here with that kind of interest boost?  

To bring it full circle to the OP's first post, something like this could result in an influx of building classic Golden Age ships and architecture.

in the end, we can all take our Lego and go build by ourselves - we don't need a forum, but we do choose to be here. A forum needs members just like it needs rules. Maybe not everyone sees the same situation I see - I do have a longer exposure to the forums than a lot of people it seems, and nostalgic memories of something are always sweeter. Still, I would love to help run a real kick-butt community build set in the Golden Age of Piracy, and I think there are some of you who would bite on this.

Ok, I will end rant and won't say anything more about the off topic smack downs of the recent past - it has just been something that has irked me for a while now and wanted to get off my chest.

[Commander Red Hat]

Sebeus Iniwum, on 26 January 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

As far as I know in the time ships were not build with the purpose of pirating, a ship was considered a pirate ship when it sailed under a pirateflag.
There are a lot ships with imperial flags lately but I can tell you that I'm waiting to post a pirateship myself.
Here's a preview;



Now don't tell me this isn't piraty enough  
skulls on the sails, bones on the prow and a pirate flag ofcourse  

It's piraty enough, but your masts are a bit short.  

[kurigan]

A point to the detractors before this thread is likely to be closed: Historical accuracy is not the enemy of good fun or imagination. There is definitely an increased interest in accuracy (which has apparently been mistakenly perceived as entirely Napoleonic) on this forum as it provides for several benefits to a community as such. For one it generates an empirical standard by which to judge and associate projects by different builders. One can most definitely tell if their project is up to snuff by virtue of the same research they did in the creation of a given piece, or lack thereof for that matter. Attention to accuracy will also affect the reputation of a group, as a whole, positively even the pursuit is not unanimous. On lookers will think more highly of that group and even more will be attracted to a place where an education may be had. Since this is an adult group a certain level of discipline rather than pure fancy is reasonable to expect, even if only on occasion, from its members. There is another important point to be made, which does not seem to be universally understood by the example this thread offers. Builders bent on accuracy, like myself, are not opposed to fascistic builds, nor do we in any way impede builders with such aspirations (I’ve even commented rather encouragingly on a few fantastic projects I found quite outstanding). This entire thread can very easily be perceived as offensive and exclusive, which may account for why it has been so “smacked down”. I myself have found myself irrationally fuming at it more than once, however briefly. Honestly it seems the wisest course of action to me, to put this topic down entirely and simply do; encourage through action, rather than challenge a community already busy with its own pursuits.

Edited by kurigan, 07 February 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Admiral Croissant]

SkaForHire, on 07 February 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Lastly, telling people basically to  shut up doesn't solve anything.  That was a rude way to put that. We can sit around and post only set reviews and MOCs, or we can have a little bit of discussion, posts our MOCs, and set reviews, and hopes of new pirates to come. I personally think a multidimensional, alive forum that gets slightly off topic once in a while is better than one that seems stale and cold.  But that is my two cents.

You're right about that, and I said it in a slightly rude manner. It wasn't my intention to shut this whole conversation.

However, even you said very recently " Anyway, on the topic of the forum, perhaps we need a competition to... " so you said you were being off topic.

This conversation started with the question why there weren't more Golden Age Pirate MOCs, then it turned into a discussion about the Golden Age of piracy. I liked it to that point, but the last two posts were a bit too much chit chat to me, so stepped in because at that point it often gets more and more off topic.

It wasn't a big deal, but perhaps I should have observed it a little longer. I did like the discussion about the Golden Age of pirates and I also like historical accuracy.

Quote

But... Back to another thing I posted a few posts back, and slightly a tangent off that rant - what about a community build? Bluecoats V. Redcoats was a great event, and it really livened the forum. Or how about something somewhat like Historica over in the History forum? Heck, I will gladly help run it after May 15 if there is enough interest. There might be close to 100 people participating over there, think of the influx of building and stories we could have in here with that kind of interest boost?

A contest is a good idea, the crew has discussed a lack of interest as well, and indeed a contest could change that.
However, it's hard to get enough dedicated crewmembers and at this moment we don't have enough funds to do it.
But we're still working on both things

Quote

in the end, we can all take our Lego and go build by ourselves - we don't need a forum, but we do choose to be here. A forum needs members just like it needs rules.

True, and sometimes it's hard to determine the exact rules.
The problem is, this is a LEGO forum in the first place, and I think we also might lose interest of the public if we talk endlessly about the historical context. I mean we could have any discussion if it's somehow related to pirates, but this forum is about LEGO pirates so we do have to set some kind of limit.

[On Stranger Tides]

Right now I am currently trying to build a minifig scale merchant sloop. I cannot tell you how many times I have started over.  It gets frustrating at times, but I won't let myself take the easy way out. I am trying to do and show what I do not see often. I really hope we can start a Piratica Guild

[Commander Red Hat]

On Stranger Tides, on 07 February 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Right now I am currently trying to build a minifig scale merchant sloop. I cannot tell you how many times I have started over.  It gets frustrating at times, but I won't let myself take the easy way out. I am trying to do and show what I do not see often. I really hope we can start a Piratica Guild

You could also make a WIP thread and get some feedback from the community, we do have some good builders in here that might be able to help you.

[On Stranger Tides]

Captain Green Hair, on 07 February 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

You could also make a WIP thread and get some feedback from the community, we do have some good builders in here that might be able to help you.

Oh I am, Admiral B lives in the next town over