96 replies to this topic

[brickcitydepot]

I sent a message to the seller and marktplaats. So I am not sure who took it down.

[LegoInHand]

Maybe it's just me but the only thing that I feel is wrong here is the use of those images without permission. He should have made his own images.

Otherwise I just can't summon the moral outrage over what is just a reverse engineered how-to guide. However I am biased and believe modern IP law is getting far too over-reaching in many ways but that's another discussion...

Assuming that it is truly reverse engineered. If it's direct copy that is yet another matter.

Edited by LegoInHand, 10 May 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[brickcitydepot]

LegoInHand, on 10 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Maybe it's just me but the only thing that I feel is wrong here is the use of those images without permission. He should have made his own images.

Otherwise I just can't summon the moral outrage over what is just a reverse engineered how-to guide. However I am biased and believe modern IP law is getting far too over-reaching in many ways but that's another discussion...

Assuming that it is truly reverse engineered. If it's direct copy that is yet another matter.

If you are referring to the auction I pointed out he bought the instructions from me and turned around and listed them for sale. He did not reverse engineer anything. It is like he bought a movie and turned around and was selling digital versions of it online. I am not sure how this is a grey area.

[lightningtiger]

brickcitydepot, on 10 May 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

If you are referring to the auction I pointed out he bought the instructions from me and turned around and listed them for sale. He did not reverse engineer anything. It is like he bought a movie and turned around and was selling digital versions of it online. I am not sure how this is a grey area.

If he sold the original instructions he brought from you....okay...once only, but if he is selling dozens and dozens of copies of same said design.....racking in the cash on the back of your hard work....eh, no. Your design is copy-righted ?

[L@go]

BrickCityDepot's instructions are digital, so there's no need to 'make more'.

Just to inform people who are reading this thread: You should note that the posts in the thread are about at least three different sellers. It can get confusing :)

Edited by L@go, 12 May 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[sonicstarlight]

I have just been alerted that ebay seller miran0620 is at it again, this time claiming to have instructions to my modular courthouse. I have never made instructions for that set nor have I ever given anyone the rights to create or sell them. If you see any instructions for my courthouse or any other modular, DO NOT BUY THEM!

I am alerting ebay now. Pity this guy wasn't banned a long time ago.

UPDATE: Ebay has removed the listing.

Edited by sonicstarlight, 02 July 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[mrklaw]

sonicstarlight, on 02 July 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I have just been alerted that ebay seller miran0620 is at it again, this time claiming to have instructions to my modular courthouse. I have never made instructions for that set nor have I ever given anyone the rights to create or sell them. If you see any instructions for my courthouse or any other modular, DO NOT BUY THEM!

I am alerting ebay now. Pity this guy wasn't banned a long time ago.

Devils advocate, but what if people are inspired by your building and want to make their own? They aren't copying anything because no original instructions exist, and there may be demand in the market for them. Have you considered making your own, or perhaps working with someone and sharing the proceeds?

[sonicstarlight]

I actually encourage people to make their own versions of my models - I'm always willing to answer questions or take additional pictures to help explain techniques or the like. What I am not encouraging is others producing instructions with zero input from me, stealing the photos I personally took from my flickr account, and then trying to profit on ebay by selling said design and instructions as their own to unsuspecting people.

I honestly just don't have the patience to generate instructions on my own, and really design just for me and not for profit. Like I said, if anyone wants to replicate what I've done they are more than welcome, but surely this crosses some sort of line.

[L@go]

I'm glad to hear the listing has been removed. This guy is really a pain in the behind - and he's obviously made quite a lot of money on this.

[lightningtiger]

Since you have your courthouse design up on Cuusoo, lets all push it to 10000....Lego then green lights it.....releases it as a set. Two things then that ebay seller must deal with....first Lego's legals and then of course the instructions go up on the instructions page at Lego.com so he would be stuffed right there.
The person must have no morals for stealing someone else's thunder, might be different if that person asked or better offered a commission for it. Sadly there always will be greedy people out there, but they are usually in the end must face the music.

[Legodt]

Here is a perspective from someone who has purchased from Miran06. I had no idea that Miran06 copied JaredChan's Arc d' Triomphe, however I am grateful for the opportunity to building this amazing creation. I am a non-creative LEGO collector and I love building the modular line and I am a frequent customer or Brickbuilderspro and BrickCity Depot.  I am continually amazed by the wonderful creations and building techniques of truly gifted LEGO fans and I appreciate the opportunity to follow instructions and to have my own version of many of these wonderful creations. If it were not for someone like Miran06, I simply would not have been able to build the Arc D' Triomphe.  While I agree that his presentation of the instructions are misleading, unfair, rude, and likely illegal, I believe that there is significant value and extraordinary skill in his efforts to reverse engineer such complex creations from a few photographs and to create usable instructions. He should be compensated for this. I just wish that he honestly described what he was doing and used his own photographs.

The amount of effort and skill used to create this instructions seems to be worth much more than $8,000. For the eBay listings and sales, I think that he should describe what he has done and post an acknowledgment to the original creator that inspired the instructions. I think this would be fair.  I also believe that Miran06 has a copyright to the instructions that he has created.  The fact that he reverse engineered extremely complex creations from a few photographs is even more incredible.

I wish all of the LEGO creators would develop a plan to provide Miran06 with photographs and details, so that he could produce even more instructions.  There could be some type of cooperative whereby Miran06 would pay one-time license fee or a continuing royalties to the original creators. Perhaps Bricklink could facilitate such a system. I would imagine that creators of buildings like the Arc D' Triomphe and other large-scale creations would be gratified that others would want to copy their designs.

I feel badly about the lack of fairness exhibited by Miran06, but at the same time, I really enjoyed building from his instructions.  It is the most amazing and complex thing that I have ever built and I'm glad that I have featured prominently in my home... just like I have the entire LEGO modular sets proudly displayed... even though I did not design them.

Instead of just bashing Miran06 and his creepy ways, try to figure a way to collaborate with people with his skill and with those that have the time and inclination to develop instructions.

~Legodt

[Horry]

@Legodt
While I can see your point from a rational-optimistic point of view I cannot support the idea in good conscience. It would simply be humiliating and paradox to go to a person that gets money from selling your ideas and dignify that method by offering him collaboration. Methods like this have the potential to seriously damage the open-minded and friendly atmosphere of the internet-AFOL community - who wants to produce MOCs or instructions for MOCs that will be sold by others who don't credit you and my even claim copyright on the creation?
Don't get me wrong - I would have absolutely no problem with anyone coming forward and say: "I'd like to sell those instructions - you got the idea I got the talent and experience to sell them, let's make a deal!" - everyone benefits from this way of things - the creator, the seller and the recipients. But the way it is now the most important part of this chain is left out: the creator. And your suggestion would mean that the creator would have to deal with the conditions set by the seller at least. At the most, it means that you encourage those folks even more as they see that they don't get problems by the original creators. And there are already enough copy-past-instructors out there - you can read about them in the LEGO technic section of Eurobricks on an almost regular basis.

[Legodt]

[quote name='Horry' date='09 August 2012 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1344547038' post='1361218']
@Horry

Thank you for your comments. I agree with what you have said.  Now, I have a better understanding of the problem. I do understand the there are bad feelings for Miran06 and his bad activities, but I would love it if responsible individuals with the skill to create instructions would properly acknowledge creators and seek permission to create instructions and to share in the proceeds of sale.

As a side note, I am looking forward to building several creations by BrickCityDepot & Brickbuilderspro

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[TheMagician]

I share Legoldt's point of view - as an "uncreative" AFOL it's great to have instructions to beautiful MOCs available to build.
I also think the time that someone spends on creating these instructions can be valued by paying them money.

On the other hand it's clear that at least the same amount of time went into creating the model itself and the instruction builder indirectly profits from the efforts the other person put into developing the idea/design.

So I'm a bit torn about this issue: why don't more MOCers allow people to create instructions for their models so they can share the profit?
From what I know there are only a hand full of websites devoted to custom building instructions whereas the forums here are full with fantastic creations - it should be possible to set up a team of Eurobricks members who MOCers can ask to create building instructions for their model. That way the money (if they want to take money for it) could be split between the creators of the instructions and the desginer of the MOC.

On a side note: of course I find it highly immoral what this Ebay seller did/does - but is it also illegal? (i.e. on what basis did you have his listings removed? Do you have copyright for your designs?)

[peterab]

TheMagician, on 10 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

On a side note: of course I find it highly immoral what this Ebay seller did/does - but is it also illegal? (i.e. on what basis did you have his listings removed? Do you have copyright for your designs?)

Most of these eBay listings use the original photos. Copyright remains with the author of any creative work unless contracted otherwise. In effect the eBay seller has breached the copyright of both the photo and the design.

While I sympathise with those that would like to build these creations, by buying these instructions you are essentially enabling the seller to profit from the designers work without compensation. I'd love to see a scheme where the designers allowed others to create instructions and have both parties share the profit.

[jaredchan]

While I can't speak for all creators, I build for my own enjoyment and sharing with my friends and other LEGO fans.
However, by sharing I don't mean turning the model into a shelf product. I like the exclusivity and uniqueness of owning the thing that I create, and that thing being the only one in the world.

If builders want to profit from their models, they can simply sell the instructions and part lists themselves. If someone is interested is selling instructions of others' creation, one should ask for permission to do so.
If the current situation is acceptable, why don't we stop buying LEGO and go for cheap Chinese knockoffs?

Sadly though, there's nothing much that I can do right now.

[brickcitydepot]

Another one is at it again. This guy is selling my instructions on ebay belgium. His name is rafg1996
http://www.benl.ebay...=item460ba75743
He took down his instructions a few days ago but relisted it. What leads people to think that this is ok?
Just a heads up to everyone I sell on ebay and on my site and on bricklink. Other people trying to sell my instructions are unauthorized and should be treated as the criminals they are. I have had the most trouble with people in Europe.

[fireknight]

An yet another one. Don't know if it has been mentioned before on this forum, but there is a site called www.modulars.nl who selles reversed engineered sets made byPeachtree, Shutinc, Stefauster and others.


PS. I can't send any of them pm's, maybe someone else can do that.

Edited by fireknight, 11 March 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[fireknight]

brickcitydepot, on 07 January 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Another one is at it again. This guy is selling my instructions on ebay belgium. His name is rafg1996
http://www.benl.ebay...=item460ba75743
He took down his instructions a few days ago but relisted it. What leads people to think that this is ok?
Just a heads up to everyone I sell on ebay and on my site and on bricklink. Other people trying to sell my instructions are unauthorized and should be treated as the criminals they are. I have had the most trouble with people in Europe.

User Zellenrath is selling a printed version of Brickcitydepots Chili Restaurant.

Can be found here : http://www.marktplaa...previousPage=lr

sonicstarlight, on 02 July 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I have just been alerted that ebay seller miran0620 is at it again, this time claiming to have instructions to my modular courthouse. I have never made instructions for that set nor have I ever given anyone the rights to create or sell them. If you see any instructions for my courthouse or any other modular, DO NOT BUY THEM!

I am alerting ebay now. Pity this guy wasn't banned a long time ago.

UPDATE: Ebay has removed the listing.

Listings are back up again on Ebay.  Miran0620 is also the owner of the website www.modulars.nl  selling lots of instructions there.

[large88]

TheMagician, on 10 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

So I'm a bit torn about this issue: why don't more MOCers allow people to create instructions for their models so they can share the profit?
From what I know there are only a hand full of websites devoted to custom building instructions whereas the forums here are full with fantastic creations - it should be possible to set up a team of Eurobricks members who MOCers can ask to create building instructions for their model. That way the money (if they want to take money for it) could be split between the creators of the instructions and the desginer of the MOC.

One of the problems is that most mocs that people find "beautiful", and want instructions for, are not designed digitally. They were designed while building and the creator has put A LOT of time into it (the Hobbiton below took over 50 hours at least). So to create instructions someone would need access to the actual model and reconstruct the entire thing in LDraw and then generate instructions. Then the instructions, in most cases, need to be checked and altered to make them usable. I will not even begin talking about the fact that some models, like Technic  are simply to complex to create instructions for.

Besides all this, stealing someones idea is not a cool thing. But unless you patent/trademark/own the design in some way there is not much you can legally do about it. Ebay seems to care about the fact that the ideas and instructions are "stolen" but if someone offers them on their own website I am afraid there is not much you can do....

[RoxYourBlox]

TheMagician, on 10 August 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I share Legoldt's point of view - as an "uncreative" AFOL it's great to have instructions to beautiful MOCs available to build.
I also think the time that someone spends on creating these instructions can be valued by paying them money.

Legodt, on 09 August 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Here is a perspective from someone who has purchased from Miran06. I had no idea that Miran06 copied JaredChan's Arc d' Triomphe, however I am grateful for the opportunity to building this amazing creation. I am a non-creative LEGO collector and I love building the modular line and I am a frequent customer or Brickbuilderspro and BrickCity Depot.  I am continually amazed by the wonderful creations and building techniques of truly gifted LEGO fans and I appreciate the opportunity to follow instructions and to have my own version of many of these wonderful creations. If it were not for someone like Miran06, I simply would not have been able to build the Arc D' Triomphe.  While I agree that his presentation of the instructions are misleading, unfair, rude, and likely illegal, I believe that there is significant value and extraordinary skill in his efforts to reverse engineer such complex creations from a few photographs and to create usable instructions. He should be compensated for this. I just wish that he honestly described what he was doing and used his own photographs.

Old posts, but with this topic bumped and that website still being run by the culprit, I want to offer my simple take to prospective buyers:
If you are truly interested in a design, you should inquire about its availability from the original builder.  Do not purchase knowingly from a plagiarist.

[peterab]

large88, on 11 March 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

But unless you patent/trademark/own the design in some way there is not much you can legally do about it. Ebay seems to care about the fact that the ideas and instructions are "stolen" but if someone offers them on their own website I am afraid there is not much you can do....

Legally at least in some countries, the design would automatically be copyright. In the case of copied instructions like brick city depots they are copyright. Ebay cares about copyright but you have to go through their process each time the seller puts up the instructions. After a while Ebay will ban the seller, but it's fairly easy for them to create another account and start again. Enforcing the copyright in the courts is another matter.