70 replies to this topic

[KielDaMan]

3001/13, on 02 November 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

And to Rufus/Pandora and the rest of the Plutns... There was no reason to target me night one! I've never survived a single EB game! I'm no threat! No threat!

Well, to be fair to Rufus/Pandora, they were also metagaming victims who were doubly targeted by both Saturn (Flit) and Venus (Zeph, ironically) on Night 1 (talk about an overkill!).

[def]

3001/59, on 02 November 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

The meal cart order for day 2 was based on the voting order on day 1, but this was not the case on the subsequent days anymore. We anticipated it would (could) be based on voting order, which is why I voted first on day 1. Hinck did a lot to be fair to different time zones. I think a random meal selection order would work just as well.

I don't know if random would make anything better.  It would totally cut one strategy out of the game (keeping track of actions and trying to keep them with you; one reason our team won this game was by keeping the paranoid gun owner with us as much as possible), and a win could be simply a matter of luck.  I played a game where a few gifts were randomly given out each day. By the last day, one side got two gifts and the other nothing, and the nothing-side lost that day.  It was a very unsatisfying game with lots of complaints afterward.  I think it's important to give the sense of responsibility to players or else there can be frustration.

It's a fair discussion, creating fairness, and I think the feedback after each game lets hosts think about it from more and more perspectives.  I just wish there were enough hours in the day for me to host every crazy scheme I have here  

[Rick]

3001/13, on 02 November 2011 - 10:03 AM, said:

It would totally cut one strategy out of the game (keeping track of actions and trying to keep them with you; one reason our team won this game was by keeping the paranoid gun owner with us as much as possible), and a win could be simply a matter of luck.

I was just referring to random meal selection order, not random meal selection. From day 2 on the order was unpredictable to us as well. I thought it would be voting order for the rest of the game, which it clearly wasn't. Of course a large part of the strategy in this setup is and should be keeping the 'good' meals.

[Fugazi]

What a game! Hinckley, thank you for hosting another challenging and entertaining mafia! I had great fun trying to figure out the game mechanics with my awesome team-mates, and I must thank Pandora, Jimbee and Rufus for sticking with us and giving input despite having been killed so early on. And iamded, good work surviving for so long all by yourself!

Having missed def's shared action game, I was itching to try this concept first hand. I had followed Bloodbrick 2 very closely, so I didn't feel disadvantaged. Of course the all-scum line-up was a complete surprise, as were some of the other twists. I'm not sure how much the other teams had the various actions figured out, but even on the last day our team still hadn't identified some of the actions. So despite our best efforts, we were still basing decisions on wrong premises and uninformed guesses. I don't think there was a problem with the game balance though -- we were just very unlucky, and bad luck can unsettle the game balance in pretty much any game.

3001/34, on 02 November 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

Yes, even if it was difficult to figure out what others were getting, it was more a challenge than a frustration. I liked it because it forced me/us to decipher more what the others took, which gives those who work hard in analyzing the meal effects a strategic intel advantage, which I think helped our team a lot especially in the latter stages of the game.

When I first realised that we wouldn't get to know what meal everyone picked, I thought it would be a really difficult game. Of course back then we also thought we were the only scum team. It turned out to be a fun challenge, and a nice twist on the previous game.

3001/13, on 02 November 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

In this game, it seemed to be done on the basis of the vote order the day before, which certainly should encourage voting, but in an equal way, you still have to be awake and online to vote early. So, the strict order, which was a pain to host I'm sure, was interesting.

This is a part I didn't like that much. As mentioned by others, the order changed every day (first to post, first to vote, most posts, etc). I would have preferred to have it either based on the same criterion every day (say, first to post) which would have added a layer of strategy, or make it completely random. Having it not quite random but impossible to predict was infuriating! Ah well, I know it worked well for some (Prof Flitwick always picked early if I remember correctly) so I guess I'm just being a sore loser!

[Big Cam]

Well first off, fuck yeah fir finally winning, I owe a big thanks to my team, they all communicated so well and if at all I'll take maybe 20% credit fit this win, although this if the most I've participated in a mafia game and I was excited every day to log on and read up on what I missed while away.
The meals were interesting, but my complaint is around day 4 when everyone knew who everyone else was, or at least almost, then the game got dead boring. I mean the game thread would just sit there untouched for many hours, and this was because there was nothing left to discuss, no investigating to do, no fingers to point, we basically just sat around waiting to vote.

Also I think switching the night actions was kind of a dick move, some of us spent lots of time tracking meals and organizing spreadsheets to keep track, and if they can just change at any time, then wrists the pint of having meals, you could have easily just randomly assigned actions to everyone each night.  


Another thing is the rules either need to be strictly followed or don't have them, if you lay out a specific layout for voting and someone doesn't follow it then it shouldn't count, if a vote is placed after the allowed time frame, then it shouldn't count, it's lazy on behalf of the player and unfair to those who follow the rules.

With those petty comments out of the way, I loved playing, this was my ninth mafia game and I feel like now I haver finally moved up a level, this is the first game I've used a writeboard and we had a shared spreadsheet. So for me this was a tipping point in my mafia experience and for that I thank Hinck and especially my teammates.
Good game overall Hinck.

[iamded]

3001/13, on 02 November 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

And to Rufus/Pandora and the rest of the Plutns... There was no reason to target me night one!  I've never survived a single EB game!  I'm no threat!  No threat!

Actually, there was a reason. It had nothing to do with meta-gaming. As it was said on our write-board:

Quote

I think maybe we should kill def tonight. I know Hinck wanted him in the game, but I’m saying this without metagaming. From his words so far today, he sounded like he knew there was an investigative action. I know it was already likely, but he sounded pretty sure of himself. He was also a bit “sensitive”, if you will, to correct people in his latest post.

To me, it seems like he would know something the other townies don’t. It really doesn’t matter who we kill on Night 1, it’s bound to be random, so why not def?

[def]

3001/4, on 02 November 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

Actually, there was a reason. It had nothing to do with meta-gaming. As it was said on our write-board:

As we can now see, there was no real reason.  All I knew on day one was that there were four scum teams.  That's not all that much.  

Anytime a host chooses a really specific strange number, it should be a hint that there is an importance to it.

Anyway, the bottom line is there's never a good reason to kill def.  He deserves to live!  

[KielDaMan]

3001/14, on 02 November 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

Also I think switching the night actions was kind of a dick move, some of us spent lots of time tracking meals and organizing spreadsheets to keep track, and if they can just change at any time, then wrists the pint of having meals, you could have easily just randomly assigned actions to everyone each night.

Ah, thanks for pointing this out this out, I was meaning to comment on this but forgot earlier. I wouldn't say it's a dick move, but it's something that inadvertently 'wasted' all the hardwork by those who have been trying to figure out the meals from Day 1. I don't mind the meal switcher action which was on the meal list from the very start, but bringing back night actions (especially killing ones) which we previously thought was already taken out of the game, really caught us by surprise and foiled any plans that everyone might've had at that point. I know it's the host's prerogative and it did hasten up the pace of the game with the mid-game bloodbath, but I assume it was a deal-breaker for those gangs who were on the wrong end of the Night 4 killing spree.

---

And on a completely unrelated note and out of curiosity, I assume the team division were not random right? I mean our Mars gang is basically composed of the 3 of the Bloodbrick II 'complainants' + Fraulein the Host. Trying to spread some brotherly love there Hinck? But honestly, I couldn't have asked for better teammates.

[def]

3001/34, on 02 November 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

And on a completely unrelated note and out of curiosity, I assume the team division were not random right? I mean our Mars gang is basically composed of the 3 of the Bloodbrick II 'complainants' + Fraulein the Host. Trying to spread some brotherly love there Hinck? But honestly, I couldn't have asked for better teammates.

That was something I brought up.  Scouts had his Pelly thing, Cam had his critique thing, but I would figure the other two 'grudges' were Rufus and Murdock, not you, sweet and tender Kiel.  But, before ten minutes of the game had passed, we had already agreed there were no grudges between us and got to work planning how to win.  

The four of us have already patted each other on the back enough, but I have to say it was one of the more aggressively plotted scum teams I've ever been a part of.  Everyone stuck to the same page, kept things updated.  We spent a lot of time on the Google spreadsheet, and figured out how to play the odds when being equally matched and having fake alliances thrown at us.  And for the most part, we were pretty straight and honest with other teams (I maintain that I'm a shit liar, which makes me bad scum).  I was really pleased, and just wish I was playing a bit longer this round.

[CorneliusMurdock]

Speaking as one who's team was on the wrong end of the bloodbath that night, it was a little annoying (Especially since Draggy had the only kill that wasn't added).  I do completely understand why the kills had to be added back in.  The game probably would've gone on for another month at least.

As for meal choice order, Zepher got the short end several days.  He still managed to get useful things those days, so it wasn't as big a deal as it could have been, I think.

I will second Cam's sentiments, though.  "Wrist's the pint of having meals?"  

[Hinckley]

3001/59, on 02 November 2011 - 10:24 AM, said:

I was just referring to random meal selection order, not random meal selection. From day 2 on the order was unpredictable to us as well. I thought it would be voting order for the rest of the game, which it clearly wasn't. Of course a large part of the strategy in this setup is and should be keeping the 'good' meals.

It alternated every day between post order and vote order. That was the only trick to it.

3001/34, on 02 November 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

And on a completely unrelated note and out of curiosity, I assume the team division were not random right? I mean our Mars gang is basically composed of the 3 of the Bloodbrick II 'complainants' + Fraulein the Host. Trying to spread some brotherly love there Hinck? But honestly, I couldn't have asked for better teammates.

Completely random selection, including TinyPies being the only witch.

[Sandy]

Thanks for inviting me into this experiment, Hinck! Your humour is really one of a kind, so at least I got giggles out of being in this game, even though for the other parts I was pretty much out of it.

I just couldn't get my head around the game, even though our gang started out strong: we knew it was an "all-scum" game by day 2, we kept getting the shivs almost daily, and we knew almost all the other meals as well. But then something happened, we were all ousted, our actions were blocked and we were killed or convicted in a row. And I still don't know what we could have done differently!

I guess that is my main gripe with the game: I went in assuming I was playing Mafia, but it turned out that none of the strategies I've learned in the dozen games I've played here applied to this game. It was refreshing, for sure, but extremely frustrating at the same time. So I was clueless for most of the time, and for that I have to apologize to my gangmembers.

But yeah, I can now say I've played in an all-scum Mafia, and I'm that much experienced as a player.

PS. I loved my character! There was just something adorable in that shark...

[WhiteFang]

First of all, I need to thank you, Hinck for inviting me into this experimental game! It was something very random and can be quite unpredictable at times especially dishing out the meal cart. Despite of that, I totally enjoyed the humorist narrative writing and that awesome piece of visual presentation. Very tasty indeed.  

I must apologise to all that I did miss a game day due to lack of voting as I went overseas on a last minute notice. Wasn't fair to all but apart from that, I did deserve my mistake for my stupid oversight of not submitting my day action which ultimately resulted me in my death (mod-killed) and cost my team a victory. Sorry guys. It wasn't expected.  

Still, CM, Draggy and Zepher, you guys are an awesome supportive team! It was really very enjoyable to be part of it!

Nonetheless, I also must thanks Kiel and Scouts for allowing the both gangs to be part of an alliance to whack the other 2 factions during the mid-day process. One thing I don't understand which I don't exactly had a clue, is how did I associate myself with def's gang and ended up believed by Shadows when he hooked the 3 of us up. The best part, Kiel and Scouts didn't revealed me and played along! Though you guys thought I was the neutral for that moment. By Day 2, everyone of us almost figured out everything and it was a new level of strategy of eliminating one another! That went mental for awhile in the back scenes!  

Nonetheless, I will be sitting still and anticipate the next mafia game of yours even if I need to wait for a year.  

[Professor Flitwick]

Congratulations on being the sole survivor Scouts! The idea of an all-scum game was an interesting one, but the downside is people may conform to Zepher's expectation, and ally with/gang up upon people based upon their rapport. I was really happy to have been invited to partake in this experiment, and hope that my incorrect voting didn't cause you too much annoyance.

Hinckley, on 02 November 2011 - 06:53 AM, said:

When I first looked at the Night Actions, I thought you being blocked meant counting the vote killed you while negating it killed Flitwick. That was why it was such a hard decision to make. But, once I consulted my notes after my family left and took the time to look at everything, I remembered it was a strong-arm and the result was the same no matter how the vote was counted since Flitwick targeted you.

I didn't want to attack the only person I could be sure didn't have the PGO meal (iamded), because I wanted to try and reduce the numbers of the Mars gang. It's a shame (for my team) that it failed, but I'm glad it helped solve the incorrect voting. Again, sorry!

3001/55, on 02 November 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Ah well, I know it worked well for some (Prof Flitwick always picked early if I remember correctly)

I guess I was just lucky enough to be on at the best time to pick meals.

I also hope that the font in which I typed didn't annoy any of you.

[Scouty]

3001/42, on 02 November 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

One thing I don't understand which I don't exactly had a clue, is how did I associate myself with def's gang and ended up believed by Shadows when he hooked the 3 of us up. The best part, Kiel and Scouts didn't revealed me and played along! Though you guys thought I was the neutral for that moment.

My best guess to this is that on the day we all voted for Shadows (where you missed voting/posting), I think Shadows made a strong assumption (and a wrong one at that!) that Kiel, you, and I were on the same team. BigCam voted pretty early, so I guess Shadows mistook that as a vote from the Venus gang, while your missing vote was mistaken as a hesitant vote from the Mars gang. I'll wait to see what Shadows has to say, but I'm just going to guess that this was a ballsy move on Shadow's part to get us to turn on the Venus gang, and it failed spectacularly   . Fortunate for us, BigCam had the PGO that night, so it was great that he was mistaken as a Venus gang member.

When you were included in the PM, we at first believed Shadow's story, so we assumed that since you were included, you were the neutral (to which there really wasn't any in this game). We may have been an honest team with keeping alliances, but that doesn't mean we also made a few white lies throughout . And they really saved us through and through. When we allied with TinyP, Kiel told a white lie, that I had the PGO and he the Action switcher, when in reality it was the other way around. I have to give strong credit to Kiel for being so bold and awesome here! Fortunate for us, Prof. Flitwick targeted Kiel that night. I thought for sure that I would have been targeted that night, since Prof. Flit led the charge for the vote for me, and when that didn't happen, he'd try to get rid of me. What happened there TinyP/Flitwick?

Also, Flit, I loved your roleplaying as the GLaDOs like alien, lovely !

[def]

3001/89, on 02 November 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

My best guess to this is that on the day we all voted for Shadows (where you missed voting/posting), I think Shadows made a strong assumption (and a wrong one at that!) that Kiel, you, and I were on the same team. BigCam voted pretty early, so I guess Shadows mistook that as a vote from the Venus gang, while your missing vote was mistaken as a hesitant vote from the Mars gang. I'll wait to see what Shadows has to say, but I'm just going to guess that this was a ballsy move on Shadow's part to get us to turn on the Venus gang, and it failed spectacularly   . Fortunate for us, BigCam had the PGO that night, so it was great that he was mistaken as a Venus gang member.

When you were included in the PM, we at first believed Shadow's story, so we assumed that since you were included, you were the neutral (to which there really wasn't any in this game). We may have been an honest team with keeping alliances, but that doesn't mean we also made a few white lies throughout . And they really saved us through and through. When we allied with TinyP, Kiel told a white lie, that I had the PGO and he the Action switcher, when in reality it was the other way around. I have to give strong credit to Kiel for being so bold and awesome here! Fortunate for us, Prof. Flitwick targeted Kiel that night. I thought for sure that I would have been targeted that night, since Prof. Flit led the charge for the vote for me, and when that didn't happen, he'd try to get rid of me. What happened there TinyP/Flitwick?

Also, Flit, I loved your roleplaying as the GLaDOs like alien, lovely !

Ahh, I'm near misty-eyed reading this... I'm so happy to things work out this way  

[Rumble Strike]

As I said before, the characters and sets were fantastic Hinck, and I loved the Mafia in-jokes too, now that I've been watching long enough to get them.

My only complaint (maybe that's too strong a word) is that because it was a shared action game, the day threads were pretty much dead.  I know you guys must've been working your megablocks off behind the scenes, and the day threads were played in character and that was a lot of fun, but it did lack the drama that a "proper" Mafia game has.

Bloodbrick II avoided that pitfall because everyone had to choose their meds publicly.  Here it seemed like we (er, the audience, for want of a better word) didn't get to see a large portion of the game.  So much of it was played "behind the scenes".

[Hinckley]

Rumble Strike, on 02 November 2011 - 06:21 PM, said:

As I said before, the characters and sets were fantastic Hinck, and I loved the Mafia in-jokes too, now that I've been watching long enough to get them.

My only complaint (maybe that's too strong a word) is that because it was a shared action game, the day threads were pretty much dead.  I know you guys must've been working your megablocks off behind the scenes, and the day threads were played in character and that was a lot of fun, but it did lack the drama that a "proper" Mafia game has.

Bloodbrick II avoided that pitfall because everyone had to choose their meds publicly.  Here it seemed like we (er, the audience, for want of a better word) didn't get to see a large portion of the game.  So much of it was played "behind the scenes".

Funny enough, I expected the day threads to be completely dead much earlier. But, somehow people still revealed things and did some arguing. I was suprised it was as active as it was. The last two days were almost purely voting and jokes, but the game itself was so much fun to watch unfold. It was definitely more for the players than the audience, but I loved it for that, too.

[JimButcher]

Wait, TinyPies died?! Wooo! *does a dance* Take that neutral scum!  

Personally, I didn't really like this setup. I guess I overreacted at first when I was lynched, but it still was pretty confusing. I had a nagging suspicion that something was up when everyone voted for me without so much as a question, but of course I didn't realize what exactly was happening until Day 2.

That's not to say you didn't do a poor job Hinck, excellent as always. I just prefer classic mafia set ups to the last two games.

Def, you complain that we had no reason to target you, well I still don't understand why TinyP decided to investigate me. It's just all part of the game. The reasons already stated were what went by. If you feel extremely unfortunate, join the club.  

And thanks to the other El Plutns: Iamded, Rufus, Pandora, and Foog. It was great playing with you guys, and I was glad to still be involved throughout the game.

[CallMePie]

Mafia War would be more fitting than Mafia Game, yeah. This game DID managed to throw off a lot of meta-gaming, which is good, but it removes the entire mafia aspect.

Yes, I'd kind of like to see a more classic mafia game in the future, without these maddening meds and food stuff. Fun as these seem, I'd prefer a normal one for a change. One mafia, one town. (I think Belville was the last one like that.)

To be honest, it took me until Day 3 to figure out what the hell was up with everybody being scum.   I'm sure all of you managed to figure out behind the scenes earlier, though.

[Hinckley]

CallMePieOrDie, on 02 November 2011 - 09:34 PM, said:

Yes, I'd kind of like to see a more classic mafia game in the future, without these maddening meds and food stuff. Fun as these seem, I'd prefer a normal one for a change. One mafia, one town. (I think Belville was the last one like that.)

Baritones 3 was relatively traditional and it was right before def's. Why is internet memory so short? I agree there is a time and a place for everything. Experimentation is fun, but the traditional game is what this is all about. I like the pace of the last few games and I think EB has a nice balance of traditional vs. new. The Forest II may be traditional...and it may be serving you meals via prison cart! Mwahahahhahahhahahaa!!

[CallMePie]

Hinckley, on 02 November 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

Baritones 3 was relatively traditional and it was right before def's. Why is internet memory so short? I agree there is a time and a place for everything. Experimentation is fun, but the traditional game is what this is all about. I like the pace of the last few games and I think EB has a nice balance of traditional vs. new. The Forest II may be traditional...and it may be serving you meals via prison cart! Mwahahahhahahhahahaa!!

One mafia.  

And anything involving furry little bricklings massacring eachother is traditional in my book.  

I just noticed, this is like your 5th mafia game-running in the past 12 months.  

[def]

JimButcher, on 02 November 2011 - 09:15 PM, said:

Def, you complain that we had no reason to target you, well I still don't understand why TinyP decided to investigate me. It's just all part of the game. The reasons already stated were what went by. If you feel extremely unfortunate, join the club.  

It's not so much a complaint as an expression of bafflement.  At this point, my perpetual death record is statistical anomaly.  Statistically, I should have survived an EB game by now, just not by dying on the first night.  
Tiny explained he investigated the person next to him which was you, it was a random choice.  

[Tamamono]

Congratulations to Scouts and the rest of the Mars Savatrucha gang!

This was a great game, Hinck, and I enjoyed following along!

I think the idea of an all-scum mafia game is an interesting one (especially when it's shared-action as well!), but as others have said, it really turns into a 'mafia war' near the end there.

[Hinckley]

Captain Tamamono, on 03 November 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

I think the idea of an all-scum mafia game is an interesting one (especially when it's shared-action as well!), but as others have said, it really turns into a 'mafia war' near the end there.

Near the end? The dealing and back-stabbing actually started almost immediately. That's part of the stuff you couldn't see from the outside. The prisoners know a dark world of deceit.