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A Match for the Imperial Flagship?


53 replies to this topic  – Started by Zilcho , Oct 27 2011 12:00 PM

#1 Zilcho

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:00 PM

Like the title says, what ships are matches against the Imperial Flagship? I am thinking of which ships could outmaneuver it and blast its front and back, without being attacked by the Flagships guns. Or are there any ships that could out gun it? I am also thinking which ships compare with it in size.

Edited by Zilcho, 27 October 2011 - 12:02 PM.


#2 Sebeus I

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 02:32 PM

View PostZilcho, on 27 October 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Like the title says, what ships are matches against the Imperial Flagship? I am thinking of which ships could outmaneuver it and blast its front and back, without being attacked by the Flagships guns. Or are there any ships that could out gun it? I am also thinking which ships compare with it in size.
The imperial flagship is the biggest ship of all official sets, it is the only one featuring 4 hull midsections and is considerably taller than any other as well.

The Skull's Eye Schooner could make a good stand, it has 4 broadside cannons matching the Imperial flagship. But the SES does not feature an upper deck unfortunatly. Based on its sail plan she would make a ship easier to steer and so perform tactical actions during a battle against the IFS.

The Queen Anne's Revenge makes a chance to stand, it only has three cannons (though there's room for 4) but has, like the skull's eye schooner, a sail plan implying maneuverability

The Red Beard Runner would have been my first choice if it weren't for its incomplete sail plan, it's relativly small with only 2 hull midsections, though it has 3 cannons there's room for 4, the RBR is a brig and those are known to be fast and maneuverable, however in its current state (gaps in the sails and no jibb (front tricorner sail) it cannon make use of that advantage I'm afraid.
With a proper sail plan she would be THE ship able to avoid the Imperial flagship's broadside.

Out of the basic sets I'd choose the Skull's Eye Schooner to engage the imperial flagship and blast those imperials in the oblivion  :pir-classic:

Edited by Sebeus Iniwum, 27 October 2011 - 07:02 PM.


#3 Runamuck

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:07 PM

My best guess at an adversary for the new flagship would also be the Skull’s Eye Schooner.

The Schooner, depending a little on how you interpret the guns on the front and the smaller cannons in the back, has pretty much every other LEGO pirates ship outgunned.

Although if you take the fictional depiction into account from Pirates of the Caribbean, Blackbeard and the Queen Anne’s Revenge have a few nasty tricks up its sleeve. I might go a bit into SPOILER territory for those who haven’t seen the movie.  In addition to the cannons it also has flamethrowers at the front. Then there is Blackbeard’s voodoo magic as a rather hard to define factor. He can apparently manipulate the winds in his favor.  He can also control the rigging (it has been a while since I have seen the movie, so I’m not sure if this only applies to the rigging on his ship) and cause it to attack people. There is also the ability to capture the opponent’s ship in a bottle, but that probably more of a finishing move. Still, most of the magic probably requires him to be fairly close to his opponent.

Edited by Runamuck, 27 October 2011 - 03:08 PM.


#4 Commodore Hornbricker

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:53 PM

Bigger ships with a bigger professional crews and completely stocked with military supplies - wins every time.  If you are a smaller ship, the Flagship doesn't want to sink you. She wants to slow you down to board you and take you as a prize.  If you are on any of the other smaller official lego ships you have 4 chances:

1) run for it
2) surrender
3) scuttle your ship
4) have at least 2 or 3 ships of similar size with you to even the odds.
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#5 Zilcho

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 05:48 PM

@runamuck I don't think we are counting magic  :pir-tongue:

@hornbricker You never know... if you have ever played Empire total war or Napoleon total war, you can easily sink a fleet of the heaviest ships using bomb ketches and rocket ships.

#6 Commodore Hornbricker

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 07:56 PM

View PostZilcho, on 27 October 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

@runamuck I don't think we are counting magic  Posted Image

@hornbricker You never know... if you have ever played Empire total war or Napoleon total war, you can easily sink a fleet of the heaviest ships using bomb ketches and rocket ships.

That's just funny Posted Image
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#7 Fives

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 08:29 PM

I would think the QAR would be the best ship to go up against the IFS. I took a close look at the Skull's Eye Schooner, and it just doesn't look like it would have what it takes to sink the IFS. The QAR, on the other hand, has enough space for eight canons in total, and with the power of Blackbeard and a zombified crew, the IFS wouldn't stand a chance.

Now, I know we are basing this discussion on ships that exist in LEGO form, but what about the Flying Dutchman. I know it isn't a set (yet), but it would be able to take down any ship. Here is my thought: If the FD were to be a set of similar size to the IFS, with two decks and triple-guns at the front, it would be the most feared ship ever, and the crew could just teleport themselves onto the IFS and kill the crew themselves.

But, alas, the FD is not a set, which means the QAR is the best match... for now! (maniacal laugh)
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#8 Commodore Hornbricker

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 09:52 PM

Hmmm.  It occurs to me that since the IFS and the QAR and FD (if ever produced) aren't actually from the same theme, meaning the IFS is from a normal pirate line and the others are from PoTC a pirate line with magic/supernatural powers, couldn't you just as easily say that when the crew of the FD teleported over to the IFS that the crew of the IFS time traveled and came back in the Imperial Star Destroyer?Posted Image
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#9 Lord Insanity

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 10:54 PM

View PostZilcho, on 27 October 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Like the title says, what ships are matches against the Imperial Flagship? I am thinking of which ships could outmaneuver it and blast its front and back, without being attacked by the Flagships guns. Or are there any ships that could out gun it? I am also thinking which ships compare with it in size.
The Armada Flagship.  :pir-devil:  Okay, sure it only has one cannon but that cannon has a rather large firing arc on either side.  Small, fast, agile, and an actual so obviously superior firing arc sounds like a winner to me. Of course in retaliation the Imperial Flagship would only need one lucky broadside to land...    :pir-sad:

#10 Sebeus I

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 11:08 PM

I can't believe someone actually prefers the QAR over the Skull's Eye Schooner, such a practical ship, such refined design, its hull alone already makes it look faster than the QAR.
The SES's has a well designed forecastle which allows extra combat power and there's the small gun on both sides of the stern ofcourse.
You shouldn't consider "voodoo magic" when comparing the ships or you could as well add an imperial star destroyer like Hornbricker sais  :pir_laugh2:

#11 Weil

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 12:23 AM

Skulls Eye Schooner would be the best bet I think. In addition to what other people have mentioned it also has a larger crew than the imperial flagship.
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#12 SkaForHire

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:58 AM

View PostCommodore Hornbricker, on 27 October 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

That's just funny Posted Image


I am not sure what is so funny here, he has a point - mortars, bomb ketches, and fire ships are a big ship with low maneuverability's worst nightmare.  I would say a rowboat with ten kegs of gunpowder could take down the IFS...

However, the IFS is technically a small frigate, it would be almost as fast and just as maneuverable as the other large ships that lego makes. However, against and open deck ship (which all of the other lego ships are, even with a forecastle and sterncastle) the IFS would put the hurt on any of them. Just load the cannon with grapeshot, the opponent will not have crew to fire the guns any more.
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#13 Hiawatha

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:37 AM

View PostLord Insanity, on 27 October 2011 - 10:54 PM, said:

The Armada Flagship.  :pir-devil:  Okay, sure it only has one cannon but that cannon has a rather large firing arc on either side.  Small, fast, agile, and an actual so obviously superior firing arc sounds like a winner to me. Of course in retaliation the Imperial Flagship would only need one lucky broadside to land...    :pir-sad:

That's a good observation! :pir-wink:

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#14 Commodore Hornbricker

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:54 AM

View PostSkaForHire, on 28 October 2011 - 02:58 AM, said:

I am not sure what is so funny here, he has a point - mortars, bomb ketches, and fire ships are a big ship with low maneuverability's worst nightmare.  I would say a rowboat with ten kegs of gunpowder could take down the IFS...

However, the IFS is technically a small frigate, it would be almost as fast and just as maneuverable as the other large ships that lego makes. However, against and open deck ship (which all of the other lego ships are, even with a forecastle and sterncastle) the IFS would put the hurt on any of them. Just load the cannon with grapeshot, the opponent will not have crew to fire the guns any more.

In special circumstances sure...but I don't read his question to include that. It's funny because Lego never made a bomb ketch or rocket ship and the question was about ships Lego made.  Like you say row a ships boat alongside 1st rate man o war and you sink her but what does that have to do with the question. My money's on the IFS vs any other Lego tall ship. I'd go SES finishing a distant second in fighting strength.
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#15 Hikaro Takayama

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 04:50 AM

Well, as Captain Hornbricker posted earlier, I'd like to re-iterate that your typical Pirate (and Privateer) ship was, in essence, a commerce raider: I.e. a fast, lightly armed ship whose purpose was to run down lightly or unarmed merchantmen to swipe their goods, but be fast and maneuverable enough to run the heck away from any kind of actual warship...

That said, however, I would put good odds on the Black Pearl and the QAR.... Either them or the Durmstrang Ship from the Harry Potter line. (yeah, it doesn't have any cannons, but it's got a crew full of wizards casting Avara Kevarda and who knows what else) :pir-tongue:

In all seriousness, the IFS would send any of the other original LEGO ships to the bottom in a 1 on 1 fight, due to the open-decked nature of the other ships and the fact that they don't have the ability to bring anywhere near the weight in broadside armament to bear that the IFS can.... Now, if the Flying Dutchman were to ever be made, what with its tri-mount breech-loading swivel gun bow chasers, then the IFS would be in trouble.

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#16 SkaForHire

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 06:57 AM

View PostCommodore Hornbricker, on 28 October 2011 - 03:54 AM, said:

In special circumstances sure...but I don't read his question to include that. It's funny because Lego never made a bomb ketch or rocket ship and the question was about ships Lego made.  Like you say row a ships boat alongside 1st rate man o war and you sink her but what does that have to do with the question. My money's on the IFS vs any other Lego tall ship. I'd go SES finishing a distant second in fighting strength.

He also diverted the question away from lego, saying in Total war that was possible for a first rate to go down to a bomb ketch, you said that was funny, I said it is very plausible.

Back on topic, agreed with the SES, however the SES would have to have a superior crew and more men, and would probably have to win via a boarding action.

Also, I would be so sure about no bomb ketches made by Lego, that Cross-bone Clipper is about as worthless looking as one, and has the same shape.
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#17 Sebeus I

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 11:02 AM

View PostHikaro Takayama, on 28 October 2011 - 04:50 AM, said:

... and the fact that they don't have the ability to bring anywhere near the weight in broadside armament to bear that the IFS can....
You mean if you place cannons on the upper deck as well ?
In their basic forms (plain sets) the IFS has an equal broadside as the SES so on that point it's an even fight.

#18 Frank Brick Wright

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:16 PM

In terms of maneuverability SES is basically equal to IFS, but for sure the IFS is faster with all those square-rigged sails. Main point is not only the number of cannons but the ships' strength. The IFS is much much taller than the SES and for sure has a frame with more strength; considering they both have the same number of cannons if it is only a "cannon battle" I'm sure the IFS would win… In terms of deck-fight probably the SES would win, because it has a bigger crew, though the IFS doesn't have an adequate number of soldiers for its size.

Between all LEGO ships IFS is the strongest, followed directly by SES.

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#19 Hikaro Takayama

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 01:38 AM

View PostSebeus Iniwum, on 28 October 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

You mean if you place cannons on the upper deck as well ?
In their basic forms (plain sets) the IFS has an equal broadside as the SES so on that point it's an even fight.

Right... Somehow I managed to get the Skull Eye Schooner mixed up in my head with the Red Beard Runner... :pir_wacko:

So, here's a list of ships by cannon ports in the broadside:

Queen Anne's Revenge: 6 (only comes with 3 cannons, though)

Imperial Flagship (Pirates II): 4

Skull Eye Schooner: 4

Black Pearl: 3 (only comes with 2 cannons)

Brick Beard's Bounty: 2

Black Seas Barracuda: 2

Red Beard Runner: 2

Imperial Flagship (old version): 2

Caribbean Clipper: 2 (the only large pirate ship I ever owned)

Armada Flagship: 1 (not much of a flagship, if you ask me!  :pir-laugh: )

Cross Bone Clipper: 1

Renegade Runner: 1

..So, the best  bet would probably be the QAR or SES to win vs the Imperial Flagship... The advantages of the IFS are that its gun deck is enclosed, meaning that it could use canister or grapeshot against the SES or QAR to decimate their gunners before switching to round shot (or, even better, heated shot) for the kill, but that's just this salty old sea-dog's take on it... Besides, I guarantee, even as a kid, the FIRST thing I'd have done with the IFS would be to add some guns to the main deck (I guarantee that I'd have bought at LEAST 4 of those Cannon Battle sets as a kid... I bought about a dozen when I realized that the 2009 pirates were being discontinued... Would have bought more, but I had already depleted the local stores' stock  :pir_laugh2:).

Of course, if it came to a boarding action, the SES would probably win, due to having a larger crew, provided the aforementioned grapeshot didn't eliminate that advantage (Yes, I've come up with a system for shooting "grapeshot" from the LEGO shooting cannons... It involves carefully stacking multiple 1x1 round bricks with the spring pulled all the way back).

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#20 Sebeus I

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 08:37 AM

View PostHikaro Takayama, on 29 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:


So, here's a list of ships by cannon ports in the broadside:

Queen Anne's Revenge: 6 (only comes with 3 cannons, though)
It has 6 cannon ports but ony 4 of them are useable, the one nearest to the bow and nearest to the stern are fake ones, you can't place a cannon behind them.

View PostHikaro Takayama, on 29 October 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

Red Beard Runner: 2
It has 3 cannon ports and a total of 4 sliding rails so actually there could be a 4th cannon port (but the set only holds 3 cannons)

The rest is correct I think, anyway I agree, the IFS would probably win, the enclosed deck offering more defence and more space for arnement is the critical characteristic  :pir_laugh2:
I'm going to make a ship that combines aspects of the SES, the QAR and the Red Beard Runner to have the ultimate ship that can outrun and outgun the IFS  :pir_laugh2:

#21 captain_flint

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:28 AM

Quote

Black Pearl: 3 (only comes with 2 cannons)
The "third cannon port" is covered by the stairs so there is only room for 2 on each side. I cannot say about the rest as I don't own any of them.  :pirate_sad2:
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#22 Hikaro Takayama

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:17 AM

View Postcaptain_flint, on 30 October 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

The "third cannon port" is covered by the stairs so there is only room for 2 on each side. I cannot say about the rest as I don't own any of them.  :pirate_sad2:

Ah, ok... I was just going by set pics on BrickLink, and that explains whey the QAR and BP don't mount more guns...  Hopefully by the end of this weekend I'll have the Black Pearl (and the double VIP points, since I'm planning on buying it at either the LEGO store in Arundel Mills or online at LEGO.com), but I'm modding that into a Neo-Confederate Armored Cruiser, which will have two 6 or 8 inch gun twin turrets and several broad-side mounted guns (or possibly broadside sponsons, which will allow the ship to train at least six 6-inch or 8-inch guns on a target regardless of which direction the ship is approaching from)....  I'll probably need to order a metric butt load of 2x2 black round corner bricks and/or 4x4 round bricks for the funnels, though.

One more observation:  It would seem that the total pirate fleet out-guns the Imperial fleet by about 2 to 1...  You'd think it would be the other way around!  :pir-tongue:

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#23 SkaForHire

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:18 AM

View PostHikaro Takayama, on 30 October 2011 - 03:17 AM, said:

Ah, ok... I was just going by set pics on BrickLink, and that explains whey the QAR and BP don't mount more guns...  Hopefully by the end of this weekend I'll have the Black Pearl (and the double VIP points, since I'm planning on buying it at either the LEGO store in Arundel Mills or online at LEGO.com), but I'm modding that into a Neo-Confederate Armored Cruiser, which will have two 6 or 8 inch gun twin turrets and several broad-side mounted guns (or possibly broadside sponsons, which will allow the ship to train at least six 6-inch or 8-inch guns on a target regardless of which direction the ship is approaching from)....  I'll probably need to order a metric butt load of 2x2 black round corner bricks and/or 4x4 round bricks for the funnels, though.

One more observation:  It would seem that the total pirate fleet out-guns the Imperial fleet by about 2 to 1...  You'd think it would be the other way around!  :pir-tongue:


That is pretty much the way it would have been. Spanish, French, and British Cruisers (and later Americans) were few and far between when in the Caribbean Sea, Coast of Africa, and Indian Ocean. This is why piracy picked up so much in the 18th century - all of those navies downsizes after the war of the Spanish Succession. I would wager that the odds were even worse for the navies of those countries at some points. I still wish Lego would make some more "good guy" ships. Especially with PoTC, let's see the Dauntless or Intrepid.
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#24 AkumaMax

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:58 AM

Stock Vs. Stock I would say the only match for the Imperial Flagship would be the Black Seas Barracuda. It's built with maneuverability in mind as well as a close enough fire power.
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#25 Sebeus I

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:05 PM

View PostAkumaMax, on 31 October 2011 - 06:58 AM, said:

Stock Vs. Stock I would say the only match for the Imperial Flagship would be the Black Seas Barracuda. It's built with maneuverability in mind as well as a close enough fire power.
Perhaps, it is the only ship that has cannons on both sides so while firing one broadside it can reload the other cannons, then make a sharp turn and fire them,
the Imperial Flagship will either have to choose one side to place its cannons or devide them over its two sides.
Deviding its cannons over its two sides would make it equal in broadside power as the Black Seas Barracuda

But then again, I think the Skull's Eye Schooner might be the better choice, it has 4 cannons as well but they are mounted on sliding turntables which makes them easy to switch broadsides.



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