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#1226 Zepher

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:21 PM

I had already created a drop that included the inspired effect for my quest, but players might be able to buy some Mulled Wine as well at some point.

I can't tell if Scuba is kidding or not.  But in all honesty, there should be more drops that are consumable.  They can still be unique that way, but they won't stock pile so that everyone ever has seven unique weapons.

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#1227 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostZepher, on 30 November 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Satchel of Awesomeness was just put out there and has the same effect.  I had thought that we were done with those, but oh well.  I think a lot of QMs are too obsessed, also, with putting out really awesome drops.  There should only be so many unique drops per quest.  I'd be a-okay if someone dropped me a few meads from time to time.
I agree, Skrall generally has a very limitted amount of consumables on hand which is something I'd like to change, but he keeps on being given all these artifacts. :tongue:

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#1228 CallMePie

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 30 November 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I agree, Skrall generally has a very limitted amount of consumables on hand which is something I'd like to change, but he keeps on being given all these artifacts. :tongue:

Same here. Atramor benefits greatly from Smelling Salts, judging by the orc battle in Quest 40. But I'm too busy upgrading and imbuing weapons just right to afford any. :blush:
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#1229 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

I think a good rule of thumb for drops may be at least:
#Party Members/2 weapons
#Party Members/2 artifacts
#Party Membersx(3/4 cost of upgrading the Party's average WP by 1)
#Party Membersx(3-6) consumables.

Edited by Waterbrick Down, 30 November 2012 - 09:40 PM.

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#1230 Scubacarrot

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:44 PM

Don't think there needs to be a rule of thumb or a change. Everything can be traded and sold. So...

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#1231 CallMePie

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:44 PM

Length of a Quest should be taken into account, too. But I don't think there needs a be a formula for loot.

Edited by CallMePie, 30 November 2012 - 09:44 PM.

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#1232 Flipz

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostCallMePie, on 30 November 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Same here. Atramor benefits greatly from Smelling Salts, judging by the orc battle in Quest 40. But I'm too busy upgrading and imbuing weapons just right to afford any. :blush:

I'd really like a few Nostrum drops, actually, so I can actually use the Nostrum strategy a bit more often.  There really is a "starter fee" to being a Rogue, and I'd like to finally build up said fee.  Tonic/Grand Tonic drops are strangely rare, too, and not just when the QM is trying to encourage smart spell use (i.e. Pie)--sometimes it just seems like QMs "forget" them.

I think once I finish my latest round of deals (and MAYBE buy Sticky Gloves, not entirely sure whether or not I should) I'll have Arthur built up pretty much the way I want him, game-mechanically.  Things like the Hood of Sylvania that grant special abilities would be awesome to have on-hand, but not if I have to pay a lot for it.  Aside from two items I'm already working on deals for for later development and the repayment of my loans, the only thing I really want is a Zoot's Plaything, and even that depends on in-character development.

View PostZepher, on 30 November 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Same for specials. I'm finishing off the Wren Quest (still... I keep making it harder :devil: ), and shopping around for specials I like. Some QMs already have designed amazing specials. STEAL THEM. People on my quest, for a preview of some of the specials you'll face, read 35, 42, 48 (a lot) and 14... and any other Wren Quest. No reason to not reuse things, especially because you see how they work in battle already and you can judge if you think they were fun/challenging/could have used some sort of complimenting ally/effect.

View PostZepher, on 30 November 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Endgame, you have a gift for battle balancing passive specials.  I think your quests use passive specials the best, so I'm stealing tons of them.  :tongue: :wub:

Agreed, though Etherial Immunity... :sceptic:

I think Pie has a real knack for selective immunity.  These battles have consistently kept me on my toes as far as effects go, forcing me to strategize rather than just removing the element of Scrolls entirely.  It's a great balancing mechanism, and it's made the battles a TON of fun to play. :sweet:

Edited by Flipz, 30 November 2012 - 09:45 PM.

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#1233 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostScubacarrot, on 30 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Don't think there needs to be a rule of thumb or a change. Everything can be traded and sold. So...
The idea of a rule of thumb is that it provides a suggestion of somewhere to start and can then be adjusted and yes the length of the quest should be taken into account as well. I think we have seen quests where there have been too many of one type of drop and not enough of another which is why we are discussing this issue.

Edited by Waterbrick Down, 30 November 2012 - 09:55 PM.

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#1234 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostFlipz, on 30 November 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

I'd really like a few Nostrum drops, actually, so I can actually use the Nostrum strategy a bit more often.  There really is a "starter fee" to being a Rogue, and I'd like to finally build up said fee.  Tonic/Grand Tonic drops are strangely rare, too, and not just when the QM is trying to encourage smart spell use (i.e. Pie)--sometimes it just seems like QMs "forget" them.

I think once I finish my latest round of deals (and MAYBE buy Sticky Gloves, not entirely sure whether or not I should) I'll have Arthur built up pretty much the way I want him, game-mechanically.  Things like the Hood of Sylvania that grant special abilities would be awesome to have on-hand, but not if I have to pay a lot for it.  Aside from two items I'm already working on deals for for later development and the repayment of my loans, the only thing I really want is a Zoot's Plaything, and even that depends on in-character development.




Agreed, though Etherial Immunity... :sceptic:

I think Pie has a real knack for selective immunity.  These battles have consistently kept me on my toes as far as effects go, forcing me to strategize rather than just removing the element of Scrolls entirely.  It's a great balancing mechanism, and it's made the battles a TON of fun to play. :sweet:
Problem is, most of their scrolls nearly completely cripple my baddies. Too many scrolls, IMO, compromise the enemy's ability to attack: making them useless. I believe Scrolls should be debuff enemies, not completely deny them of their ingrained abilities. For example, I'd much prefer scrolls of weakening, fragility, scroll-of-SP-halving (ooh may have to make that one) etc. Scroll of Blinding is definitely the most OP one.
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#1235 Brickdoctor

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

View PostEndgame, on 30 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

scroll-of-SP-halving (ooh may have to make that one)
We do already have the Scroll of Armor Sundering. It doesn't halve SP, but decreasing by five is already powerful considering the Defense stats that most enemies have.

#1236 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostBrickdoctor, on 30 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

We do already have the Scroll of Armor Sundering. It doesn't halve SP, but decreasing by five is already powerful considering the Defense stats that most enemies have.
D'oh, missed that one!

Either way, I'd suggest jacking up the Scroll of Blindness' ether cost to about 5 or so - that is still pretty cheap for completely crippling an enemy!

I'll probably just give enemies specific immunities from now on. :blush:
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#1237 Flipz

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostEndgame, on 30 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Scroll of Blinding is definitely the most OP one.

Blinding doesn't prevent use of Specials, though; as long as the enemy is immune to Blind OR Sealed, they'll always have SOME way to retaliate against the Heroes (yes, Sleep will prevent both, but any AoE attack will wake them up, so it's still a risk to put an enemy to Sleep).

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#1238 CallMePie

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:17 PM

View PostFlipz, on 30 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Blinding doesn't prevent use of Specials, though; as long as the enemy is immune to Blind OR Sealed, they'll always have SOME way to retaliate against the Heroes.

Problem is, it's easy to use both.
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#1239 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostFlipz, on 30 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Blinding doesn't prevent use of Specials, though; as long as the enemy is immune to Blind OR Sealed, they'll always have SOME way to retaliate against the Heroes (yes, Sleep will prevent both, but any AoE attack will wake them up, so it's still a risk to put an enemy to Sleep).
Wait huuuuh?

...I take that back then! I've been preventing my blinded baddies from even landing a hit since the quest's beginning. :blush:

I usppose I can just say "Can have only 1 scroll effect applied at a time." That'd fix it, right?
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#1240 Flipz

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostEndgame, on 30 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Wait huuuuh?

...I take that back then! I've been preventing my blinded baddies from even landing a hit since the quest's beginning. :blush:

I usppose I can just say "Can have only 1 scroll effect applied at a time." That'd fix it, right?

But then you remove the possibility of things like Weakened, Frail, Deadly Poisoned, etc.  (Jebs did have a nice "2 Effects per enemy" thing going on in Quest 35, but still...)  IMO, it's a lot more fun to give each enemy SPECIFIC immunities, and force players to think on their feet. :wink:

That said, since you've already included Etherial Immunity on the "Boss" Proggs, I'd keep it on them (since it DEFINITELY adds to their character :wink: ), I just don't want to see it spread all across Heroica and make Scrolls semi-useless. :wink:

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#1241 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

View PostFlipz, on 30 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

That said, since you've already included Etherial Immunity on the "Boss" Proggs, I'd keep it on them (since it DEFINITELY adds to their character :wink: ), I just don't want to see it spread all across Heroica and make Scrolls semi-useless. :wink:
Yeah, ethereal immunity probably isn't going to show up anymore - except for, as you said, Eidolon and Aquos. They couldn't give less of a megablock about any of the heroes' puny literature. :tongue:

The rest of the Gladius Unit will still probably get some form of resistance, though.

Edited by Endgame, 30 November 2012 - 10:34 PM.

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#1242 Palathadric

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:13 PM

View PostBrickdoctor, on 30 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

We do already have the Scroll of Armor Sundering. It doesn't halve SP, but decreasing by five is already powerful considering the Defense stats that most enemies have.
I think Endgame is the only QM who actually uses SP "heavily" for enemies. It's been a while since I read the Dastan quests though, so I can't remember if there were heavily SPated enemies there or not.
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#1243 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:16 PM

SP, I believe, is something most monsters should have a little bit of.

Of course, they should always be a way to lower or bypass it, too. :innocent:
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#1244 Palathadric

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:35 PM

Although the new enemies with SP, passive specials, and an inordinate amount of immunities are fun, sometimes I just prefer the regular good "ol' fashioned" enemies. Give them a Level, Special, and Health and they're good to go. I think the majority of enemies are still like this. Although, I have to say that I admire how Sandy made the enemies on the Unlimited Quest so fiercesomely difficult to beat without even giving them insane specials or passive specials/SP, etc. I guess every QM is different which is what makes Heroica interesting.
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#1245 Capt.JohnPaul

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

I agree with palathadric. You should plan for a battle without reading a wall of text for one enemy. Everyonce in awhile, it's okay. But I like the simple health, and special, then for a drop, just give it a few gold. Everyone likes it, and it's not OP.
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#1246 Endgame

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostCapt.JohnPaul, on 30 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

I agree with palathadric. You should plan for a battle without reading a wall of text for one enemy. Everyonce in awhile, it's okay. But I like the simple health, and special, then for a drop, just give it a few gold. Everyone likes it, and it's not OP.
Is that a request to streamline the battles? :blush:

Honestly, I find having to read the fine print of an enemy's stats enjoyable: it adds another layer of strategy, identifying all of their abilities and finding a way to counter or avoid them. Enemies that just have one special and some health kind of seem flat to me, unless they are hordes of them or something.
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#1247 Scubacarrot

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:55 PM

View PostEndgame, on 30 November 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Is that a request to streamline the battles? :blush:

Honestly, I find having to read the fine print of an enemy's stats enjoyable: it adds another layer of strategy, identifying all of their abilities and finding a way to counter or avoid them. Enemies that just have one special and some health kind of seem flat to me, unless they are hordes of them or something.

That's the trick though, isn't it? Making the battles challenging without it being overly complicated.

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#1248 Endgame

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:02 AM

For reference, here is the current battle going down via PM:

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Iron Oozeling "Slym" (Exoskeleton), Level ?? Vermin
HP: 100/100
SP: 5
Specials:
Money Munch: Hits the hero who rolled Special Damage for damage equal to his level, disregarding SP. Enamored by all the pretty metals in the heroes' coin pouch, he also takes and eats gold equal to the hero's level.
Passive Specials:
Mirrored Potential: The Iron Oozeling's level is equal to its attacker's level + 2.
SP Decay: Rolls of Damage or Special Damage cause the hero's SP to drop by 3. Their original SP will be restored at the battle's end.
Note: When defeated, the Iron Oozeling's Nucleus becomes exposed.
Drops: Nothing.

Posted Image
Oozeling "Snkot" (Exoskeleton), Level ?? Vermin
HP: 60/60
SP: 1
Specials:
Slimed: Lobs a ball of slime at the hero, Slowing them until the battle ends, the effect is remedied, or it is removed for 5 ether.
Passive Specials:
Mirrored Potential: The Oozeling's level is equal to its attacker's level + 1.
SP Decay: Rolls of Damage or Special Damage cause the hero's SP to drop by 3. Their original SP will be restored at the battle's end.
Note: When defeated, the Oozeling's Nucleus becomes exposed.
Drops: Nothing.

Posted Image "Shlurpidy!"
Oozeling "Geloh" (Exoskeleton), Level ?? Vermin
HP: 60/60
SP: 1
Specials:
Slimed: Lobs a ball of slime at the hero, Slowing them until the battle ends, the effect is remedied, or it is removed for 5 ether.
Passive Specials:
Mirrored Potential: The Oozeling's level is equal to its attacker's level + 1.
SP Decay: Rolls of Damage or Special Damage cause the hero's SP to drop by 3. Their original SP will be restored at the battle's end.
Note: When defeated, the Oozeling's Nucleus becomes exposed.
Drops: Nothing.

The two mook's special simply transfer a status effect, and the Special damage of the iron one is basically just halving the hero's SP then snagging some gold. Mirrored Potential is just a clause for balance purposes (because of the level and SP gap.) There is an Exoskeleton/Nucleus mechanic (basically, destroy the frail exoskeleton and you'll get a crack at destroying nucleus, but it'll eventually regenerate it's exoskeleton; taking the nucleus down kills the entire thing.) the only complicated thing I (emphasis on the I :blush: ) is the SP decay, and even then, not so much.
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#1249 Fugazi

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:47 AM

I for one enjoy very much the way Endgame's enemies are built. A lot of thought has been put into making them surprising and challenging. That's your unique style, keep at it! :thumbup:
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#1250 Capt.JohnPaul

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:26 AM

Endgame, I like the strategy we have to put into this, and the specials are good. The only thing I'd request would to make it less complicated. I personally feel the WoT enemies are just an eyesore. They're good everyonce in a while, (like a boss fight,) :classic:  but not good for every normal battle. I'd say the current battle is just a tad too complicated. :blush:  For example:

.We don't know the level of our foes
. All the enemies have SP
. They're specials are kind of complicated, and there's multiple of them, a lot of passives and Notes
. When they die, we have to kill its nucleus, which brings mire enemies with all the same problems and special conditions.

Don't take it the wrong way, it's just my personal opinion. :wink:
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