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#1051 Scorpiox

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:37 PM

View PostEndgame, on 11 September 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

I judged it on the total amount of health from the Fantome and the Odzaph battle, mostly. :blush:

The Fantome was a boss battle to climax to a quest, whereas yours was literally the first few battles.

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#1052 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:43 PM

View PostScorpiox, on 11 September 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

The Fantome was a boss battle to climax to a quest, whereas yours was literally the first few battles.
But the added together level when the fantome was 33 or so: Every one was in their advanced classes during this, and Althior was already nearly at level 20. Not to mention this party also had 2 offensive healers, plus a hero whou could dish out triple damage.

I agree though: I overshot the stats more then a bit.
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#1053 Scubacarrot

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

I can't say I've been following the quest, so I won't make an asession if the battles were too hard, perhaps they were a bit, and if you saw the first one was already very hard, maybe you could have maybe made the second one (was this the second one?) a lot easier and for the third one and up find a balance?

What I did notice at a glance is that the specials are insanely complicated, is there a particular reason for that?

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#1054 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:49 PM

View PostScubacarrot, on 11 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I can't say I've been following the quest, so I won't make an asession if the battles were too hard, perhaps they were a bit, and if you saw the first one was already very hard, maybe you could have maybe made the second one (was this the second one?) a lot easier and for the third one and up find a balance?

What I did notice at a glance is that the specials are insanely complicated, is there a particular reason for that?
I saw the first one wasn't insanely hard: it just took a long time. The second battle was designed to be faster but harder. It backfired. :blush:

To get past the barrier presented by the fact Althior and Xander would always shoot from the back row, and the fact Alex had high SP. Like I said, I overshot.

Edited by Endgame, 11 September 2012 - 09:51 PM.

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#1055 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostEndgame, on 11 September 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

... :wall:

I've been juggling the Idiot Ball for a while, haven't I? :blush: I'm not sure if I'd want to host something like it again, anyway. It was definately fun, but I find that something like the Voracious Vault where there is constant NPC interaction, puzzle solving, etc. is a more interesting hosting duty.

The "no fleeing" policy was adopted for the sake of coherence - they wouldn't have nowhere to run to. I was testing the waters with the Shambler battle - it was simply took a long time, there was very few panic points. Because of this, Battle 2 had a very little HP increase, a big SP drop, and were made stronger overall.
When determining battle lengths I take the average scenario for damage dealt by the party, i.e. if everyone rolled "hit" and multiply that by the number of rounds I want the battle to last, this becomes my enemies' base health. It's a starting point and is by no means a hard and set rule, but it at least gives me somewhere to work from.

I thought the 1st battle of your quest was a little too long, mainly due to the amount of SP that the enemies had. You adjusted by decreasing that in the next battle, but you compensated by making them stronger which didn't help. I know battles can be one of the hardest things to balance, but one thing I think that needs to be avoided is changing stats/specials mid-battle. I think the case of the Shambler's Death Note's stats changing toward the end of the battle was unnecessary. Parties plan and strategize sometimes two to three rounds ahead and changes like that can really throw everything off, yes that may be your intention, but it's not something I would encourage for the very first battle.

I thought the enemies were unique and the presentation alright, but it was a battle only quest which means the story was in the backseat, something I don't prefer, but I applaud your efforts for trying a concept not often utilized. :thumbup:

View PostEndgame, on 11 September 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

To get past the barrier presented by the fact Althior and Xander would always shoot from the back row, and the fact Alex had high SP. Like I said, I overshot.

For future reference:

Magic Users:
Immunity to Magic
Immunity to Element
Sealing
Drag to the front row
Attacks that ignore row
Deadly Poison

Ranged Attackers:
Immunity to Physical
Drag to the front row
Deadly Poison

There are a lot more complicated ways to get around their strengths, but these are the more simple solutions.

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#1056 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:09 PM

I thought a hack n' slash quest would be a nice break after the Dastan saga.

I made a huge oversight in the death note's stats, and I wanted to make it a threat instead of just a way to stall them. The Breakdowns were to prevent the battles from being just clobbering the last enemy standing. Normally not an issue, but when there are only 3 heroes and 2 enemies (ocasionally 3) I thought a twist would be neccasary to keep the party on guard.

I added the gem choice and the pill mechanics to still have choices in the typical beat 'em up formula.
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#1057 Capt.JohnPaul

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:29 PM

Wow.
Endgame, you mad about the Fantome or something? Was it the monkeys? :cry_sad:  :tongue: I'll start off to say, those battles were almost balanced.but not quite. I always make the first few battles easy, to get an undertstanding of the party's capabilities and luck, then operate from there. We were just thrown in the deep end. Also, the pill's effects were outrageous. Out of all the ones we took, only ONE was positive. That was unfair, IMHO.

Now, don't go nerfing every enemy in future quests, just make the first ones easy. :classic: Give us time to level up.

Also, I've noticed, like others said, the specials were very complex.

Edited by Capt.JohnPaul, 11 September 2012 - 10:30 PM.

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#1058 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:34 PM

View PostCapt.JohnPaul, on 11 September 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Wow.
Endgame, you mad about the Fantome or something? Was it the monkeys? :cry_sad:  :tongue: I'll start off to say, those battles were almost balanced.but not quite. I always make the first few battles easy, to get an undertstanding of the party's capabilities and luck, then operate from there. We were just thrown in the deep end. Also, the pill's effects were outrageous. Out of all the ones we took, only ONE was positive. That was unfair, IMHO.

Now, don't go nerfing every enemy in future quests, just make the first ones easy. :classic: Give us time to level up.

Also, I've noticed, like others said, the specials were very complex.
Damn monkeys... :tongue:

There were 5 posititive, 5 nuetral, and 5 negative pills. Like I said, the Shambler battle didn't seem to put any of you in the critical, so I operated from there.
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#1059 Capt.JohnPaul

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:41 PM

View PostEndgame, on 11 September 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Damn monkeys... :tongue:

There were 5 posititive, 5 nuetral, and 5 negative pills. Like I said, the Shambler battle didn't seem to put any of you in the critical, so I operated from there.
Hmm... but those battles were way to long for a first battle. (The enemies had too much health.)
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#1060 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:43 PM

View PostCapt.JohnPaul, on 11 September 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Hmm... but those battles were way to long for a first battle. (The enemies had too much health.)
That, they did. :blush: That is definately one of the biggest points I have to work on.
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#1061 Capt.JohnPaul

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:47 PM

Oh! And don't forget the "no smoke bomb" thing. That was unfair. That was mean. You sick twisted unsentinent being. :sceptic:

:classic:
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#1062 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:49 PM

View PostCapt.JohnPaul, on 11 September 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Oh! And don't forget the "no smoke bomb" thing. That was unfair. That was mean. You sick twisted unsentinent being. :sceptic:

:classic:
I'll keep that reserved for really big battles from now on. :wink:

This has been a huge learning experience for me. Hopefully I can clean up my act and do the second part of the Progg saga justice. :blush:
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#1063 Flipz

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:08 PM

I noticed you mentioned that you based the battles off of the Fantome Croise battle.  To be honest, that battle was unbalanced as well, as (IMO) the guard fight in Q47 sort of seems as well.  (Guards battle is a lot closer to ideal, but still a tad much; the "ignores row" thing is a OHKO for Mackency, which is not really a good idea.)

Also, the "pills" to be tested AND the no smoke bomb rule were too much together.  I really get why the "no smoke bomb" thing makes sense thematically, but if you wanted that, then some other effect should have been in place (i.e. all pills have SOME advantage, or healing is twice as effective in the magic realm, or Smoke Bombs don't let you flee, but the smoke hides you, making the party immune from Free Hits for x number of Rounds).  I liked both concepts, but they're both things that make the Party's job mechanically harder; more than one and victory starts to fall out of reach.

Also to note: not everyone has SP.  If you're dealing with a high-SP party member, it's better to just let them live a long, long time and chip away at them with status effects, rather than upping enemy Power to a point that it's overpowering to everyone else.  Otherwise, things end up being a Knight-fest, where the Knights get to have balanced fights but no one else has a chance.

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#1064 Sandy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostEndgame, on 11 September 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

I'll keep that reserved for really big battles from now on. :wink:

No, you should not ban using normal items like that. The Smoke Bombs were created for a specific purpose: so that the party can escape a hard battle, regroup and rest, and come back to try again. If you take away the only lifeline the party has (not counting the "Flee" trait), then you will get plenty of failed quests in the future as well. :sceptic:

View PostFlipz, on 11 September 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

I really get why the "no smoke bomb" thing makes sense thematically, but if you wanted that, then some other effect should have been in place (i.e. all pills have SOME advantage, or healing is twice as effective in the magic realm, or Smoke Bombs don't let you flee, but the smoke hides you, making the party immune from Free Hits for x number of Rounds).

Now you're starting to sound like B&P, changing and twisting my precious game mechanics like that. Please stop! :tongue:

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#1065 Brickdoctor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:12 PM

View PostFlipz, on 11 September 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

If you're dealing with a high-SP party member, it's better to just let them live a long, long time and chip away at them with status effects, rather than upping enemy Power to a point that it's overpowering to everyone else.
  :wub:

#1066 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:15 PM

Can do, Sandy.

Flipz, also keep in mind the other people had moderate HP + backrow advantage, so it basically eqauted to the same amount of defense, if not more on occasion.
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#1067 CallMePie

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:19 PM

Use a special that deals Deadly Poisoned next time to put those SP junkies in their place.  :laugh:
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#1068 Brickdoctor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostCallMePie, on 11 September 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

Use a special that deals Deadly Poisoned next time to put those SP junkies in their place.  :laugh:
It only takes 80 Gold to buy a readily available artifact to prevent that.

#1069 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

View PostCallMePie, on 11 September 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

Use a special that deals Deadly Poisoned next time to put those SP junkies in their place.  :laugh:
I did have one! But Alex was lucky enough to get the immunity pill. :tongue:

The enemy specials were decided since the beginning.
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#1070 swils

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostBrickdoctor, on 11 September 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

It only takes 80 Gold to buy a readily available artifact to prevent that.

Deadly Burns.  :devil:

#1071 CallMePie

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:26 PM

View Postswils, on 11 September 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Deadly Burns.  :devil:

I was thinking Extremely Deadly Posioning.  :devil_laugh:
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#1072 Brickdoctor

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:27 PM

View Postswils, on 11 September 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Deadly Burns.  :devil:
:distressed: ...remind me to stock up on Remedies.

#1073 swils

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostCallMePie, on 11 September 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

I was thinking Extremely Deadly Posioning.  :devil_laugh:

Deadlier Poison? Oh, the possibilities are endless.  "Not-quite-deadly-but-still-really-bad-for-you Poison" perhaps?

Ooh, "Incurable Disease: Victim is weakened and loses 3 health per turn"

Edit:
"Incurable Disease: Victim is weakened and loses 3 health per turn.  Not treatable with Remedies."
Added the last bit because hey, why should heroes be able to use basic items to avoid stuff?  :tongue:

Edited by swils, 11 September 2012 - 11:30 PM.


#1074 Endgame

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:31 PM

A hodge podge of effects other QMs could use:

Suffocating: Level drops by 1 temporarily per turn. Curse variant.

Demotivated: can only attack and heal with WP.

Plague: 7 HP lost per turn, plus 3 max hp lost per turn.

Edited by Endgame, 11 September 2012 - 11:35 PM.

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#1075 CallMePie

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 11:33 PM

View Postswils, on 11 September 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Deadlier Poison? Oh, the possibilities are endless.  "Not-quite-deadly-but-still-really-bad-for-you Poison" perhaps?

Ooh, "Incurable Disease: Victim is weakened and loses 3 health per turn"

Deadlyish Posion, Semi-Deadly Poison, Fatal Poison, Lethal Poison, Inhumanely Acidic Poison, Explosive Poison... :grin:

I've always wondered whether anyone will actually run into the Cobra Priests again and have access to all sorts of different venoms.
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