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The Eldorado Fortress debate!


70 replies to this topic  – Started by Mister Phes , Jul 01 2006 01:06 PM

Poll: Eldorado Fortress (100 member(s) have cast votes)

What is its size and status

  1. Its the be all and end all of Imperial Guard Fortresses (56 votes [56.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.00%

  2. Its merely a small fort (34 votes [34.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.00%

  3. I have a different perspective (10 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#26 Norro

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 06:03 PM

View PostSean, on Jul 7 2006, 04:10 PM, said:

What exactly is that piece limit by the way, do you know?

It isn't an exact scien but if you look across any given year of lego releases there seemes to be a common thread of piece count to price range...

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#27 Mister Phes

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 06:36 PM

View PostNorro, on Jul 7 2006, 10:43 PM, said:

I was never against the original raised baseplate, it added height once thay had reached a max piece count which reduced the need for large burps/huge wall sections. It is what's on top that matters ;-)

I must disagree that the original baseplate reduced the need for large burps and huge wall sections because when it was introduced these pieces didn't exist anyway.  If I'm not mistaken the burps didn't arrive until 1993 and the huge wall sections didn't start appearing until 1995.

However, I don't think burps are a problem or the more simplistic wall pieces as they add structural stability to the design.  But I do think those walls with opening windows and doors already built into them is going a bit too far.


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#28 Norro

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:17 PM

View PostMister Phes, on Jul 7 2006, 07:36 PM, said:

I must disagree that the original baseplate reduced the need for large burps and huge wall sections because when it was introduced these pieces didn't exist anyway.  If I'm not mistaken the burps didn't arrive until 1993 and the huge wall sections didn't start appearing until 1995.

Exactly! I think the original raised baseplate helped to delay their arrival by adding height to basic piece models without adding to the piece count... It was the pressure for even more which allowed the juniorization in. Just a pet theory...

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#29 Mister Phes

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 08:11 PM

It seems like this debate has run out of steam, so to all those who believe Eldorado Fortress is merely a small fort (in the LEGO scale scheme of things) how can it be considered small when it has 496 pieces?  The majority of LEGO sets have a smaller piece count than Eldorado Fortress, so at the very least wouldn't Eldorado Fortress be a medium sized fortress?


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#30 oo7

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 08:15 PM

I like my LEGO sets realistic. I still imagine this as a small fort.
But in LEGO scale where things are pretty messed up, this could be a smallish medium fort.
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#31 SuvieD

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 08:37 PM

It doesn't have the size needed baseplate wise or visually.  I still think LEGO needed the larger baseplate size fort.  Why would a trading post take up more space than a fort designed to guard it?

Besides, it is an island fort.  Harder to build, ship material too and maintain.  A land fort would not have those problems and as a result size would be expected and not just a luxury.

The defense are too limited.  There is not enough fire power to defend a port from numerous enemies and ships.  A larger fort with a round tower on the waterline could much more easily.  Also as an island if they were cut off from supplies/reenforcements the soldiers would die too quickly and easily.  There is not enough storage space.

The larger castles and pirate ships had 800-900 pieces in them and a minimum of eight figures.  The largest fort should as well.

#32 Mister Phes

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:02 PM

View Postoo7, on Jul 13 2006, 06:15 AM, said:

I like my LEGO sets realistic. I still imagine this as a small fort.
But in LEGO scale where things are pretty messed up, this could be a smallish medium fort.


Which LEGO sets do you consider to be realistic?


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#33 Mister Phes

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 09:41 PM

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

It doesn't have the size needed baseplate wise or visually.  I still think LEGO needed the larger baseplate size fort.

Do you have a built Eldorado Fortress to refer to?


View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

Why would a trading post take up more space than a fort designed to guard it?

Eldorado Fortress and the Imperial Trading post have no connection and Eldorado Fortress is not designed to Guard the Imperial Trading Post.  The Imperial Trading Post takes up more space because its a dipiction of supposedly the largest harbour in the Caribbean (hence its UK/Australian name "Port Royal").  The largest harbour is going to be far bigger than the biggest fortress for obvious reason, do I need state them?

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

Besides, it is an island fort.  Harder to build, ship material too and maintain.  A land fort would not have those problems and as a result size would be expected and not just a luxury.  Also as an island if they were cut off from supplies/reenforcements the soldiers would die too quickly and easily.

A land fort on the mainland in the same territory of its sovereign would not have these problems.  But all the British and French forts in the Caribbean were on small islands so this is hardly a realistic critcism under the circumstances.  Its the way was.

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

The defenses are too limited.  There is not enough fire power to defend a port from numerous enemies and ships.  A larger fort with a round tower on the waterline could much more easily.


How much fire power does it need?

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

There is not enough storage space.

Which LEGO sets has ample storage space?  Eldorado Fortress has the biggest storage space of any LEGO set I've ever seen.

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 13 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

The larger castles and pirate ships had 800-900 pieces in them and a minimum of eight figures.  The largest fort should as well.

Eldorado Fortress does have 8 mini-figures so that's not an issue. At the time of its release in 1989 the biggest castle in existence was the original yellow castle with 778 pices.  But perhaps this is an exception because it was released before there was a designated Castle theme and elements like horses were built, rather single elements.  So that leaves Knight's Castle and Black Monarch's Castle both at around 665 pieces as the largest castles.  Only around 170 pieces more than Eldorado Fortress so that's not a huge leap.

But how can Eldorado Fortress be compared with Castle sets as they're in an entirely different theme?  Its the biggest set in sub-theme so shouldn't it be compared against the other sets within that sub-theme?


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#34 snefroe

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 11:01 PM

ok...
i've been thinking about posting to this topic before but always decided not to because it's such a weird debate...

but first, yes, Phes i did say in the past that it's rubbish, a collection of pieces you can use to build a decent fort, provided that you have a vast collection of normal building bricks, because this set doesn't have many...

is this a large lego set? it has a baseplate that makes it look fairly large but in terms of basic bricks... i wouldn't think so. Legoredo fortress, for instance, has 93 1x4 actual bricks to build walls, most castles would have two floors if you'd replace the classic baseplate with a raised one, like eldorado's. the building itself isn't really huge, nor is it very impressive.

what is this supposed to be? as a set, this has got to be the officer's headquarters. the pirates got the largest ship, so i guess it's only fair to give the admiral, or who ever it is, an HQ. sure, he got a smaller ship as well. how else would you be able to have a battle at sea?

nope, this is not a trading post; if i'm not mistaken, you can even see in a catalog somewhere that the black winching device is to lift the treasure chest, not food or whatever... Besides, i don't think officers would be living just above the gate of the port, they'd look for a house far away from the noise, the filth of a harbour or the fort itself... at best, they'd keep a few soldiers at the port to keep law and order. A port wouldn't have a prison either, that would be at the local police office or the actual fort. i don't see civilians nor boats from civilians, all i see is a bunch of pirates who are after the officer's treasure and surely, he doesn't just keep that in the port, but in his fort where it's protected by the garrison, that usually stays in the fort, not the port...

so the building has two cannons; sure an actual fort would have dozens; but an actual pirate ship would also have lots of cannons. how many does this one have? 4? so are we then to conclude that this isn't an actual pirate ship but, for instance, merely a scout vessel?

is this an island fort? strange question. Lego has positioned the fort close to water because pirate theme is a water based theme. they wanted to distinguish this theme from castle themes and they wanted fans to be able to attack the fort from ships, that's all.

i think the piece count doesn't really come into play here. all sets have parts that don't have anything to do with the actual building, like armor, horses, flags, weapons,...

#35 Mister Phes

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Posted 12 July 2006 - 11:19 PM

View Postsnefroe1, on Jul 13 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

i've been thinking about posting to this topic before but always decided not to because it's such a weird debate...
You wouldn't be expecting a normal debate in a Pirate forum would you?

I'll just point out a couple of things...

View Postsnefroe1, on Jul 13 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

most castles would have two floors

Eldorado Fortress has 2 floors...  


View Postsnefroe1, on Jul 13 2006, 09:01 AM, said:

is this an island fort? strange question. Lego has positioned the fort close to water because pirate theme is a water based theme. they wanted to distinguish this theme from castle themes and they wanted fans to be able to attack the fort from ships, that's all.

Yet they still put Cannon Cove on green base plate without any water decorations.  Should we presume that Cannon Cove is intended to be a small inland fort?


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#36 oo7

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 04:40 AM

View PostMister Phes, on Jul 12 2006, 05:02 PM, said:

View Postoo7, on Jul 13 2006, 06:15 AM, said:

I like my LEGO sets realistic. I still imagine this as a small fort.
But in LEGO scale where things are pretty messed up, this could be a smallish medium fort.


Which LEGO sets do you consider to be realistic?

This and this (without ghost fig)
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#37 Mister Phes

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 06:26 AM

Ok...  I can see how you think the crane looks realistic,  but Kings Castle looks no more realistic then Eldorado Fortress!

What's looking realistic got to do with Eldorado Fortress being a large or small fortress anyway?


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#38 SuvieD

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 02:56 PM

Well as far as Pirates theme only then you must consider the largest of the sets with this fort.  At 892 pieces the Skull's Eye Schooner realeased in 1993 is the largest set LEGO made.  It has a crew of nine pirates and sold for roughly twice that of the Eldorado fortress.  It has five cannons of which could all be used on a target at one time.  This ship could easily out gun the fort and if it came to landing and bringing the fight to land it would probably win due to the fact that the nine pirates plus the two included in the fort would be more than enough to best the six guards.  Not to mention the pirates have a monkey which is like having an extra dozen men. ;)

I owned the fort as a child and it was small even then.  it could hold it's own against the likes of rafts but the larger ships were too much for it.

Were the fort place on a larger raised baseplate or even a flat one and given more soldiers and another 200 pieces or so for building it could be the be all end all.  As it sits now it is not.  I am not saying you could just say well they could have made one bigger.  Any set can claim that.  What I am saying is that even within the Pirate theme the imperials never got the support or fortress needed to fend off pirates.

You can have your opinion on this and argue a point until death but most people I think would say that the imperials could have and probably should have had the larger fort.  If not a fort then at least a ship the matches the size of the grand pirate vessels.

#39 oo7

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 03:33 PM

View PostMister Phes, on Jul 13 2006, 02:26 AM, said:

Ok...  I can see how you think the crane looks realistic,  but Kings Castle looks no more realistic then Eldorado Fortress!

If you consider Eldorado Fortress a small fort then yes, it is as realistic as Kings Castle, a smallish medium castle.

View PostMister Phes, on Jul 13 2006, 02:26 AM, said:

What's looking realistic got to do with Eldorado Fortress being a large or small fortress anyway?

I don't know, you asked me what LEGO sets I considered to be realistic, and I told you.
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#40 Mister Phes

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:05 PM

Yes, I did because you were the one who brought up that you preferred realistic looking sets.  I.e. "I like my LEGO sets realistic." So I was wondering what the relevance of mention that was.  You don't seriously think King's Castle looks realistic do you?  It reminds me of the Disney castle with all its turrets!


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#41 Mister Phes

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Posted 13 July 2006 - 11:16 PM

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 14 2006, 12:56 AM, said:

Well as far as Pirates theme only then you must consider the largest of the sets with this fort.  At 892 pieces the Skull's Eye Schooner realeased in 1993 is the largest set LEGO made.  It has a crew of nine pirates and sold for roughly twice that of the Eldorado fortress.  It has five cannons of which could all be used on a target at one time.  This ship could easily out gun the fort and if it came to landing and bringing the fight to land it would probably win due to the fact that the nine pirates plus the two included in the fort would be more than enough to best the six guards.  Not to mention the pirates have a monkey which is like having an extra dozen men. ;)

Where's the 5th cannon in the Skulls Eye Schooner?  Mine seems to be lacking a 5th!

View PostSuvieD, on Jul 14 2006, 12:56 AM, said:

I owned the fort as a child and it was small even then.  it could hold it's own against the likes of rafts but the larger ships were too much for it.

Were the fort place on a larger raised baseplate or even a flat one and given more soldiers and another 200 pieces or so for building it could be the be all end all.  As it sits now it is not.  I am not saying you could just say well they could have made one bigger.  Any set can claim that.  What I am saying is that even within the Pirate theme the imperials never got the support or fortress needed to fend off pirates.

Those ships are quite large by any theme's standard, I don't have a large castle set to compare with them, but might it just be possible that those ships give even the largest castles a run for their money as well?



View PostSuvieD, on Jul 14 2006, 12:56 AM, said:

You can have your opinion on this and argue a point until death but most people I think would say that the imperials could have and probably should have had the larger fort.  If not a fort then at least a ship the matches the size of the grand pirate vessels.

I wholeheartedly agree that there should have been a larger Imperial Guard fortress, but the fact there wasn't is why I'm insisting Eldorado Fortress was intended by The LEGO Company as the "be all and end all of Imperial Guard fortresses".  But given that the vote is 6 all it can only be said that half believe Eldorado Fortress is a small fort.

Here's the scale I've gone by.

Small: Broadside's Brig and Imperial Cannon
Medium: Lagoon Lockup and Treasure Outpost
Large: Eldorado Fortress and Imperal Trading Post

If it wasn't intended to be the biggest, then why didn't they release one bigger?  Pirates were phenomenally popular during the early 90's so surely something bigger what have sold.

The fact that Sabre Island and Cannon Cove are forts which are much smaller than Eldorado Fortress is why I refuse to believe Eldorado Fortress was intended to be nothing more than a small fort.  If that's a small fort why is there smaller still?


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#42 Mister Phes

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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:50 AM

There is now an Eldorado Fortress Pictorial Review, so check it out!


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#43 Captain Ironhook

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 08:43 AM

If this Eldorado Fortess is only a small fort then why is it the biggest Broadside set?  This doesn't make sense to me for I cannot believe the Lego factory would create the largest set in the theme for others to say no this is actually only a small set.  That is like telling the company how to think.
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#44 Scouty

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:28 AM

Whelp. With my vote making it tied (9,9) ,voting it being a mighty fort, we should see if one will take the lead??  Though small, it isn't as small as Broadside Brigs and Imperial Outpost. So Idecided this one to be a mighty fort IMO
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#45 natelite

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 03:45 PM

well, my view is that it is the largest fortress. the reason being, this is a lego set we are talking about, and historically, lego sets were tailored for the regular kiddies, not mocs. so obviously to an afol it will seem like a scout fort rather than the main fortress. we have had many castles that are small compared to the live or afol mocs, but they were designed to be the main castles and not small outlets.

so my vote goes to phes. i didnt physically vote because i'm not a pirates fan anyway...just a casual observer who was bored with the other forums and ventured here looking for adventure and a little bit of mischief. ;-)

#46 Grrr

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 12:35 AM

I regard it as lego's be all and end all of fortress's for the Imperial Guard. While it has a relatively small scale - it would at least be vaguely believable to have one of the lego ships alongside it - unlike the forbidden island, released at the same time.

Some of the arguements above about it not being able to hold it's own against lego's ships are quite irrelevant when you consider that any lego ship could happily take on any of the lego islands (including the larger 6273,6277 etc)

The reason for having the island sets on a smaller scale is quite economically visable really - the average kid will generally get one large set per year (christmas, birthday etc) and generally a handful of smaller sets. All of the other lego themes upto this time had very few large sets (500+ pieces), in general two being available in each year for each sub-theme.

I mean really, how many of us really had multiple ships and large islands before becoming AFOL? And having half a theme never made it as playable as it could be - what are pirates when there are no soldiers to hunt?

I get the impression that over this period lego was also trying to make the larger sets more affordable to the less effluent children, as can be clearly seen in the castle line over following years with sets like King's Mountain Fortress and Wolfpack Tower. Lego was clearly making a break from larger sets here. The pirate theme (particularly the large islands) would always also face internal competition, I mean do you really need a fortress when you have a handful of smaller sets?

Of course, all of this has very little to do with realism - but I don't think lego has every been to overly concerned with that (trading it off to economics and playability).  I don't believe lego was ever intending to have a very high amount of overly large sets in any theme, and pirates are definately one of the themes with the highest concentration (most castle and space sub-themes had one very large set each, often not even to the same scale as the pirate sets).

#47 Mister Phes

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 05:01 AM

Mr Grrr raises some good points, so welcome aboard laddie!

I remember when I was a kiddie all I had were the small sets and looking at Eldorado Fortress in the catalogues it looked really really really biiiiiiig for a Pirate LEGO set.  Oh, how I wanted it so...


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#48 Scouty

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 06:14 AM

Welcome Grr. I as well agree with you. Me. I never got the chance for the grab of the pirate sets :-( .  Even with the 2002 re-releases  :'-(
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#49 El Bucanero

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 01:56 PM

I voted for: It's merely a small fort.
Serious, the Eldorado fortress is more like a large outpost then a be all and end all Imperial gaurd fortress, It is just not immpressive enough, big enough and heavily armed for ''the big fort''
In this thread, Berry Syedow mentioned a smart idea for TLC

Quote

TLC certainly could've been more clever with their resources. Such as creating two/three/four separate forts that joined or morphed (collect them all and build a larger fort with their parts!) into something truly impressive.
They did that with racing cars, so why can't they do it with fortresses sais I *pirate*

#50 Bonaparte

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 09:42 PM

Hey I never voted in this one.
I took the "Its merely a small fort" option.
But it can be an excellent starting point for a big fortress.
It certainly has been an immense inspiration for several fortress MOCs.

Thanks for reviving this old one Mr. Tiber!

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