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17 replies to this topic  – Started by KingoftheZempk , Mar 16 2011 10:02 PM

#1 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:02 PM

Some may remember my HMS Artemis I created a few months back in LDD... unfortunately, she hasn't been built yet, and I have decided to not build her in real bricks. After some time off from LEGO Pirate related MOCs, I've started the HMS Swordmaiden. And this time, I plan on making her better than the Artemis. So far, she's one or two mid-sections longer, and i plan on 3 studs spacing between cannons. I've been looking at a lot of ships for inspiration, most notably the list of the Best Sailing Ships here on Classic-Pirates. A lot of inspiration has come from Bonaparte's ships, and also CGH's.

I'm trying to make the stern a bit more realistic as well.
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That's all so far. What do you guys think? :pir-classic:

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#2 Admiral Croissant

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:20 PM

Good that you're starting on a ship again.
There's not much to say something about, but my only suggestions are to make the black part more in a curved way on the hull sections, just like CGH did.
And it would be nice if you made the side galleries more curved inwards instead of going in a more edgy form like you did.
I know that's a bit difficult, but challenges are there to be conquered and I think it will make the ship look more realistic, so you could give it a try.
Good luck! I'm looking forward to the next update.
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#3 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:56 PM

View PostAdmiral Croissant, on 16 March 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

Good that you're starting on a ship again.
There's not much to say something about, but my only suggestions are to make the black part more in a curved way on the hull sections, just like CGH did.
And it would be nice if you made the side galleries more curved inwards instead of going in a more edgy form like you did.
I know that's a bit difficult, but challenges are there to be conquered and I think it will make the ship look more realistic, so you could give it a try.
Good luck! I'm looking forward to the next update.

Thanks, Admiral Croissant! I'm afraid I don't know what you mean though on your suggestions. I'm slightly confused. Do you mean on the hull section part that I use more of the angled bricks on the bottom?

And as for the stern, I put it like that for accessibility, but I do understand what you mean.

Also, this is more of a personal-style question, but would you recommend putting two cannons right in front of the doors? Would that look right, or just take up room and look unprofessional? I'm trying to have as much accessibility/playability as possible without sacrificing too much aesthetically/historically accurate.

Thanks again!

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#4 Admiral Croissant

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 09:28 AM

With the more curved black line I meant that you could do it more like this before you add the black part.
And what I meant with the curved side galleries is this: (bird's eye view)
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And about the question of the cannons: My tip is to first just try to take up room so you have playability.
If it really looks bad then, you can always change it.
But even on real ships there's a bit of space bewteeb the side gallery and the first gunport.

Good luck!
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#5 Captain Becker

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 09:43 PM

Nice looking start already. Too bad at you didnt build HMS Artemis.
But on to this ship right now, it seems at you are making two decker ship right? Looks promising. There is some space beetween the stern sides at the moment, but that isnt a big deal. But id make the sides of the ship first and make the stern last. What id suggest to you about the cannons, take a looks about the real ships first, and then think what you like the best. I wouldnt put cannons into cabin if id make a ship, but of course it depens at what looks good. If there wont be any cannons on the cabin, but the outside looks weird, you can always put two cannons, one on each side to give it a better look. When you sayed playbility, are you planning to make the gallerys sides opening or are you planning to make the cabins so at they can be lifted up easily? Like Perfectionist`s Achille`s deck? Keep it up and keep us updated.
PS: Im sorry for long reply :pir-blush:

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#6 kurigan

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:26 AM

Perhaps I can help here: I think you being too literal in the design of your stern gallery. Firstly, the windows on the side are not as big as the windows facing out the back; on most ships they are significantly smaller. To create the illusion, try using only one pane, or a smaller frame. On my ships I usually don’t even use frames, rather I build the windowpanes them selves out of transparent bricks. Also, the gallery doesn’t need to be deep enough to encompass the entirety of the cabin. Do some google searches for, drafts (schematics) of historical ships and, even better, photos of the cabins aboard replica and surviving ships of the period. You’ll see that even Nelson slept with a cannon under his cot.

Two decks are ambitious, especially if you’re planning to build on prefab Lego hulls. They start you off quite narrow, and tend to offer strange proportions. The few from this site that have looked really impressive were done so by building out the sides of the ship beyond the Lego hulls. Another note since you mentioned an interest in historical accuracy; on all the two gun deck ships I’ve studied, the stern gallery only came down to the second gun deck. The lower gun deck, running uninterrupted to the stern, where there are usually ports either side of the rudder for stern chasers.

Your welcome to look through my gallery, though I haven’t yet used Lego hulls. Some of what I’ve designed, to tackle similar problems may help. Also I have a few of my models on my brick shelf, if you’d like to dissect them. I trust you won’t plagiarize. Hope I’ve been of some help.


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#7 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 08:54 PM

View PostAdmiral Croissant, on 17 March 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:

With the more curved black line I meant that you could do it more like this before you add the black part.
And what I meant with the curved side galleries is this: (bird's eye view)

SNIPPITY-SNIP

And about the question of the cannons: My tip is to first just try to take up room so you have playability.
If it really looks bad then, you can always change it.
But even on real ships there's a bit of space bewteeb the side gallery and the first gunport.

Good luck!

I've started working on your suggestions for the curves, Admiral. And I'm also working on taking up room now with the cannons, as well.

View PostCaptain Becker, on 17 March 2011 - 09:43 PM, said:

Nice looking start already. Too bad at you didnt build HMS Artemis.
But on to this ship right now, it seems at you are making two decker ship right? Looks promising. There is some space beetween the stern sides at the moment, but that isnt a big deal. But id make the sides of the ship first and make the stern last. What id suggest to you about the cannons, take a looks about the real ships first, and then think what you like the best. I wouldnt put cannons into cabin if id make a ship, but of course it depens at what looks good. If there wont be any cannons on the cabin, but the outside looks weird, you can always put two cannons, one on each side to give it a better look. When you sayed playbility, are you planning to make the gallerys sides opening or are you planning to make the cabins so at they can be lifted up easily? Like Perfectionist`s Achille`s deck? Keep it up and keep us updated.
PS: Im sorry for long reply :pir-blush:

Captain Becker

Thanks, Captain Becker! Yeah, I am sort of ashamed I couldn't build the Artemis, but I guess I wanted my first real brick-built ship on my own to be better than how I could get the Artemis. The reason the stern was built first was because I was a little worried that I wouldn't get it right, and I didn't want to have to change it later on in the build. And on the playability factor, it's a bit of both. If you remember when I was building the Artemis, I built the gunports to be pulled out easily, like a break-away section of a wall, such as on the Soldier's Fort set. I'm also having the upper decks removable as well, like a modular-building, without the modular-ness. And no, long replies are good! It means you looked at it! :pir-tongue:

I'll address yours in blue.

View Postkurigan, on 19 March 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

Perhaps I can help here: I think you being too literal in the design of your stern gallery. Firstly, the windows on the side are not as big as the windows facing out the back; on most ships they are significantly smaller. To create the illusion, try using only one pane, or a smaller frame. On my ships I usually don’t even use frames, rather I build the windowpanes them selves out of transparent bricks. Also, the gallery doesn’t need to be deep enough to encompass the entirety of the cabin. Do some google searches for, drafts (schematics) of historical ships and, even better, photos of the cabins aboard replica and surviving ships of the period. You’ll see that even Nelson slept with a cannon under his cot.

So should I then make the cabin smaller? I can easily make the window smaller, but I do like the size in the cabin, so I may use 2 windows.

Two decks are ambitious, especially if you’re planning to build on prefab Lego hulls. They start you off quite narrow, and tend to offer strange proportions. The few from this site that have looked really impressive were done so by building out the sides of the ship beyond the Lego hulls. Another note since you mentioned an interest in historical accuracy; on all the two gun deck ships I’ve studied, the stern gallery only came down to the second gun deck. The lower gun deck, running uninterrupted to the stern, where there are usually ports either side of the rudder for stern chasers.

I've extended the width of the hulls by 2 studs on each side. And for historical accuracy, I should make the lower gundeck run all the way through, as I looked at the Master and Commander link you posted. So then should I make the cabin start at the second deck, but then the upper part of the stern gallery on the part where it would "begin" to have a "third" gundeck? Sorry, I'm not as good as I should be with ship terminology. But then the poop deck even higher above that? Like a "fourth" level?

Your welcome to look through my gallery, though I haven’t yet used Lego hulls. Some of what I’ve designed, to tackle similar problems may help. Also I have a few of my models on my brick shelf, if you’d like to dissect them. I trust you won’t plagiarize. Hope I’ve been of some help.


Here's a list of useful Images to start with.
My album
My brick shelf

Those are quite beautiful ships, kurigan! I looked at your ships, and I'm afraid only a bit of it helps, as it isn't on the prefab hulls, but I definitely see some of the ways you fixed the problems I have. And don't worry, I wouldn't plagiarize.

Thanks everybody!

"Bibliography":
Kurigan
Bonaparte
Captain Greenhair
Admiral Croissant
Perfectionist

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#8 kurigan

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Posted 21 March 2011 - 10:16 AM

Firstly, thank you, I appreciate the compliment. Now, as for the cabin on your vessel; what I’m getting at is, to yes make the sides of the gallery smaller, or shorter for to aft. Cabins on such ships often extended forward past the last and second to last guns (guns typically numbed for to aft). The gallery portion is only the rear most portion of the entire space and was typically not the sleeping or living area, but more of an office or meeting room. Most of the time the cabin was subdivided by removable walls which could be reconfigured, to say open the space up for a large dinner, or cleared away entirely in anticipation of an action (battle). In Short, make the cabin as large as you like, but for accuracy and ascetics shorten the gallery.

2 studs may not quite suffice, though extending out much farther may prove awkward at best. You’ll just have to experiment with the design. Don’t worry about the terminology too much; it only comes with time and a lot of digging. Besides we all stutter and make mistakes from time to time, I’ve been called out my self on this very board, for obvious blunders such as grossly misrating one of my early LDD frigates. You’ve got the idea though. The upper level of the stern gallery occurs on level with the quarterdeck, with the ships wheel just outside that cabin. The lower portion lines up with the upper gun deck. The deck above the after cabin on the upper portion, which also serves as a roof, is actually a poop deck. Here’s a picture that may help.

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#9 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 05:38 PM

So I've done some updating, and I think I got the stern to how I want it, thanks to the advice of Kurigan.

Here's the overview so far. I took the bow area from the Artemis and put it on, either as a place holder or as the actual part. I'm not sure if I like the two cannons there though. :pir-sceptic: Any ideas?
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And here's the stern. I like it a lot now. Thanks Kurigan for the suggestion. I now will put two cannons by the rudder, and I think it will look pretty good.
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Enjoy the updates!

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#10 Captain Becker

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 06:21 PM

Its looking good so far. I think at the sides of the ship wont fit together whit the bow though, take a look at Joey Lock`s HMS Unicorn if there would be some help. And also look Blackmoors Alceste if you want to get some ispiratio for how to make the sides correctly. Its coming along quite nicely, even at there could be some curve. Keep it up.

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Edited by Captain Becker, 26 March 2011 - 06:21 PM.

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#11 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 01:02 AM

Thanks Captain Becker! I only have one new picture available, and I haven't worked on the ship much in the past week, so i can't remember if I took your advice or not. But I have added stern and bow pieces thanks to the new LDD function.

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What do you guys think?

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#12 Admiral Croissant

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:55 AM

Looks a lot better already with bow and stern piece :thumbup:
The gunports line looks a bit boring though IMO. The deck is everywhere of the same width except for a small part at the stern.
And the gunports are all at the same height.
I think it would look more interesting and professional if you made more of a curve in the deck and in the gunline.
The deck should already get more narrow before the side galleries.
Good luck!

Edited by Admiral Croissant, 08 April 2011 - 09:56 AM.

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#13 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 04:32 PM

Well it has been nearly two months since I've worked on this ship, and I'm glad to say I'm going to continue work on it. I made the curve in the gunport line, as others have suggested, and I'm quite pleased. I only have one picture update, as I would like o see what people think before I add more on to the ship.

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If you can't tell the curve, it goes three ports (at the original height), down one plate for two ports, down one more plate for three ports, up one plate for three ports, and up one more plate back at the original height for two ports.

Thanks for looking!

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#14 Captain Becker

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 05:24 PM

One question before i give any tips: Is she gonna be one or two decker ship? Because i think you are making her two decker´if i watch your current ships stern.
If she is gonna be two decker, take the bricks away under your cabin and put the cabin lower (Do this even if shes not gonna be two decker). Also i would put 4 studs between the gunports, just to give it a better look. And you could add one or two gunports yet to her sides. Good luck whit her.

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#15 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 01:34 AM

Two decks, and if I may ask, why would I put the cabin lower? I was looking at Kurigan's plans from Master and Commander, and the ship I am sort of going with is like this. For spacing, I put three for reasons of cannon amount, and because I think that if I put four, I would have to make the ship larger, i.e. pulling off pre-fab hulls and making it brickbuilt. Also, it saves me some money :pir-tongue:

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#16 Captain Becker

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:17 PM

Only because it would look much better IMO. If you watch Bonapartes HMS Prince of wales, its pretty good example, if i can get LXF file i will show you how it would look cabin lowered. And amount of cannons isnt really that important in ships. Speed, Steering (I cant again remember that fine word for it) are maby the most important things in ship. Even at you would put 4 studs spacing and make her two decker, she would have loads of cannons on board. Perfectionists ship Achille is one decker ship and have over 30 guns. Plus if we count the smaller guns on the main decks and swiwels, it would have about 50 or 60 guns. And i dont think at you will have to add more hulls or make her Brick-build hull, you can add as i said before one or two more gun ports on the stern part yet, theres yet plenty of room.

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#17 KingoftheZempk

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 08:21 PM

I uploaded the current .lxf file to BS, so when it is moderated, it should be able to be downloaded.

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#18 Captain Becker

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 09:44 PM

You must say at doing the stern something more like this will give it a bit sleeker look aye? I would also think at you need to give thee ship more curve looking from the sky. It was just one tall thin sosic at the moment. this can be easily done just a few more bricks. :pir-classic:  Good luck whit her.
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