61 replies to this topic

[Perfectionist]

Admiral Croissant, on 28 January 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Well, according to wikipedia, the original armament would have been 38 guns + 16 carronades (so the carronades weren't counted in the "38 gun frigate").

One thing that's really interesting about the classification of those age of sail warship is how the guns were counted. Before the war of 1812 only broadside long guns were counted while carronades, swivels and chasers were usually left out. When Carronades became more popular and it became a trend to put them on the entire topdeck of warships, especially frigates, it was no longer possible to leave them out; so all guns were counted, This made the Leda class 38 gun frigates become rated as a 46 gun ship with essentially the same armament.

For Lego ships this means that there are also various ways on how you determine  the gun count. For example Achille has a total of 36 guns: 22 on the gundeck, 6 on the topdeck, 2 forechasers and 6 swivels. By the means of the old classification it would be a 28 gun 6th rate. However since it's rather large for a Lego ship in minifigure illusion scale with its  6 midsections, I wanted to give it the impression of a 5th rate. Hence I claimed it to be a ship "carrying 36 guns", an expression that is accurate either way, even though most people won't notice.

Actually you could do the same with your ship too, even more so since it's also 6 midsections and your small guns are smaller.  That would mean placing a total of 38 guns on it (e.g. 22 on the gundeck, 10 on the topdeck, 2 forechasers and 4 swivels). Since you already have those with the exception of swivels, you could just add for of those and - tada - you have a 38 gun Lego frigate!  

Anyway, concentrate on building for now and don't put too much pressure on finishing it. If you want your ship to be really good, you just have to take your time, which means at least a few moths.

I wish you good luck with it; and let's hope you'll be able to get the bricks you need!  

[Aalak]

Thanks for the history lesson about gun counting of Ships, quite interessting nad I didn't need to research it.

I just ordered some new parts for the Ares... and until they arrive,I will take it slower, since I have my masters degree essay to write,too the progess will be a little bit slower, as it was before, since I should and hopefully will not brick through nights for quite a will. An hour here and there, but that will be all for the near future.

I thought about adding swivels. I still try to find a design I like. but I already placed the fittings for 4 of them on the new deck. I followed your advice and flatten the quaterdeck at the same time... more to come soon.

[Aalak]

Update,

I did a bit of rebuilding... the upperdeck completely with the masts and the yards ... since I run out of usable black plates for the crownests I borrowed some ideas of Perfectionist again. The gundeck is now tiled in brown, too since I got around 200 2x2 tiles from my lego store's pick a brick..

Still got unstable masts, so I guess I need to by 32er axles or glue them (last one is not serious)...

Most of the new rigging was destroyed after transporting the upperdeck to the ship :( But a sneak peak to improvment:






I lost my main mast during the transport :( 3h of new rigging nearly destroyed, I could only safe the mizzen and fore masts, mizzen lost rigging as well...  

Somebody got 32er axles to spare in Germany?  

Still not happy with the stern... so no new picture from there.

[Admiral Croissant]

The yards seem to be of the correct length. And I used the same mast technique for the Vesta.
I used about 4-5 different technic axles instead of one 32 axle, and I believe the masts never broke.
If you add the ropes and axles efficiently I think they shouldn't be able to break anyway.
But 32 axles will do fine of course.

As for the colour of the masts, it's quite good.  
But I would try to make the mast caps (around the "crow's nests") all black and the rest of the masts yellow, as you can see here:

[Perfectionist]

Aalak, on 10 February 2011 - 10:47 AM, said:

I did a bit of rebuilding... the upperdeck completely with the masts and the yards ... since I run out of usable black plates for the crownests I borrowed some ideas of Perfectionist again. The gundeck is now tiled in brown, too since I got around 200 2x2 tiles from my lego store's pick a brick..

Somebody got 32er axles to spare in Germany?  

Still not happy with the stern... so no new picture from there.

So finally someone figured out how Achille's SNOt platforms work  
The yellow masts are a major imrovement colour-wise and I love that you tiled the deck.
The colourscheme of the hull is also way better with the thin red line and the black topdeck railing!  

For some reason the swivels, the capstan, the lanterns and the steering wheel all look familiar to me...

But it really is a stunning improvemt over the last update!

Onto the mast stability: I used 4 32 long axles for both Achille and Guerriere (all masts + bowsprit) and I ordered another 17 for building Superbe's masts so that might be the reason why there are few of these left in the European Union.  
If you still can't get your hands on them, you could try 3mm hose instead - it prevents the masts from breaking, but they bend a little.

Also the rigging is usually supposed to hold the masts in place and make them stable, especially the ratlines. When you go for a modular deck, you really have to make sure they are tight! The stays will then have to add enough stability in the other directions.
I found it's quite hard to find the right amount of tension on all strings and I'm pretty sure the rigging took me much longer than anything else, well have fun!  

For stern I'd use lattice windows. There is a new version from MMV, so you can get them for 1,50€ a piece I think. But it's really worth it. Other than that you should give the stern that inverted slope and be creative with small Lego elements. Should be fun.

A small nitpick I have on the deck is that the working area (the cutout where the boats are) is too small. There are also too many bars for the capstans.

But after these great new picture I'm most certain you are about to build the very first proper redcoat frigate on this forum. Keep it up!  

[Aalak]

@ Admiral Croissant: Thanks for the advice,with the colorsheme of the masts (switching black to yellow was quite an improvement), I'll try the other suggestions as well. btw - Which ship's mast are in that picture of yours?

@ Perfectionist: "imitation is the highest form of admiration"   They lamps are quite nice, catspan and the swivels too... by the way, I guess I try your headrails design as wellm since I'm not happy with the plateversions I tried.

And finally that should make her a "Perfectionist's Croissant"-class frigate  

So you are the reason for the shortage of the axles ... But the suggestion with the hoses could be worth a try.

Just played a bit with the stern and I'm happy with it.. for now.

[Perfectionist]

Aalak, on 10 February 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

Just played a bit with the stern and I'm happy with it.. for now.

I like it!    The lowest line of round plates looks a bit weird since it's interrupted and -besides that - not necessary. I'd just loose it. There's also no need for the red line to continue through the stern. But apart from these two nitpicks I think it's fine! Lattice windows would still look good, but I don't see them as necessary now.

Onto the headrails: be prepared for your fingers to hurt then! You'll also have to encounter a shortage on yellow 3mm hose I think, I bought quite a lot... and it isn't easy to get them in sufficient amounts.  

If you have questions on the headrails, just ask.

[Aalak]

Perfectionist, on 10 February 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

I like it!    The lowest line of round plates looks a bit weird since it's interrupted and -besides that - not necessary. I'd just loose it. There's also no need for the red line to continue through the stern. But apart from these two nitpicks I think it's fine! Lattice windows would still look good, but I don't see them as necessary now.

Onto the headrails: be prepared for your fingers to hurt then! You'll also have to encounter a shortage on yellow 3mm hose I think, I bought quite a lot... and it isn't easy to get them in sufficient amounts.  

If you have questions on the headrails, just ask.

Thanks for the feedback... I bought some lattice windows, they arrived yesterday, as well as some hoses, you weren't kidding, not much small hoses left in germany, a specially in yellow. Still waiting for another batch to arrive to conclude the headrails. It wasn't as difficult or painful as you mentioned in an earlier post. I just put the hand on another hose and used the hose for leverage... still need 4 smaller hoses to complete and or change the design, but finally I'm happy with it.

Here are the pictures:
The Ares and my "little" sideproject (not sure, what I will made her ... two masts but I won't make her full-rigged)


A closer look to the headrails - still need some work


Small changings in the stern:

[Admiral Croissant]

An excellent update again   Most of this frigate is already perfect as it is now, just some minor suggestions:
You could make the part where the one bowsprit section is above the other all black (as you did with the mast cap parts).
I would also make the bowsprit yard black, as all the other yards are black too.
The mast parts to the first mast cap of the fore- and main mast can use some more black in it, like here:

This is not essential (on the Victory it isn't very visible for example) but some colour variety is always nice IMO.
The headrails can use a little work too, but I think Perfectionist can be more helpful with that.
The fact that you're using his technique is great, I believe you're the second person who ever tried it.
I also like the stern a lot. Perhaps you can make the rudder brown in the future and then it'll be perfect
The smaller ship is looking good as well. It's nice to have 2 ships so you can make a battle when you display them.
Good luck!

[Aalak]

Thanks for the feedback, I won't change the masts to more black, since I used black rope for the rigging.. it wouldn't look good with more black on the masts, especially since I started the rigging. Still got some problem with the curve of the hoses at the bow, the shorter ones still bend back after a while and "deform" the larger hose's arc   but overall I'm happy with it so far... even if it isn't as pefect as Perfectionists.

As mentioned, I started to re-rigg her this week. Some of the new rigging-lines gave the masts more stability. Using the Snot-platforms and  a lot more of http://img.bricklink.com/P/1/4081b.gif makes her stable, too. I used 124 for the rigging so far. Next step: "cross-side" rigging. I'm still not sure, if I gonna glue or knot them together. Some more sneaks from my handy-cam.





I'll try to get the camera over the weekend to make some better pictures. C&C welcome.

P.S. I tried to estimate the time I used to build the Ares and the little nameless ship so far... I was shocked... 150h, with 3 complete rebuilds so far ...

[Admiral Croissant]

The first image looks very good already! I don't have much to complain this time
My only suggestion is to change the spanker sail yard a little bit. I think this image explains enough:

So actually, the bottom yard is longer than the top one.

Like I said before, Perfectionist can help you more with the headrails.
That's all. Good luck!

[Captain Genaro]

I really like this ship. The colors and the deck looks great! I never realized how tall the masts on a ship are untill I saw your ship and Perfectionists' !

I look forward to the next update!

[Perfectionist]

Aalak, on 26 February 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

As mentioned, I started to re-rigg her this week. Some of the new rigging-lines gave the masts more stability. Using the Snot-platforms and  a lot more of http://img.bricklink.com/P/1/4081b.gif makes her stable, too. I used 124 for the rigging so far. Next step: "cross-side" rigging. I'm still not sure, if I gonna glue or knot them together. Some more sneaks from my handy-cam.

Ok, well to make it short: If I were you, I'd have waited with the rigging until all the masts and proportions are as good as possible, ideally "perfect". I say that because I'm afraid your masts are way too high.


This is another graphic of the famous HMS Trincomalee in Hartlepool. It's been shown in this thread a couple of times; and I also had the honor to visit her quite lately, pictures will come when I have the time  

But back on topic: as you can see the main mast is about as high as the length at the waterline. Actually that's quite a lot, when I visited her I was quite amazed. The main mast's top is 46,6m above the deck. But at the same time the overall length (driver boom to flying jib boom) is 82,3m. In other words: the ship is significantly longer than high. The only historic ship with exceptionally high masts is USS Constitution, but she's not in her original condition of 1812 and neither a "true" nor a typical frigate.

In other words: I think there's no way you can keep your masts as high as they are now, also aesthetically. Of course things a are a bit different on a Lego model. For instance the prefab hulls and the oversized minifigures make the hull appear more clumsy than on a model that is to scale. Hence higher masts are a natural solution to make up for that; and yes, they are about 20% too high on Achille too.

But yours are even higher than that. I think the main mast should have it's royal yard a bit lower than where the topgallant yard is now. On top of that there would only be the flagtop, a thin bar piece like the lightsabre one, but longer.  And of course all the other masts would be somewhat lower than that even; the foremasts slightly lower, the mizzen much lower.

I'm not you, but that's my opinion.

I'd also like to add that she's looking really, really good apart from that.

Now onto the headrails: I am very fond of what you have done there so far, but there's still some fine-tuning that you could do.



That's the headrails of Guerrière, an older design than on Achille, but I think it's easier to figure out where the 3mm hose goes. As you can see, the vertical hose parts are all attached to the hose parallel to the prow. The part in the middle isn't attached anywhere but on it's ends and is just for decoration as is the horizontal hose above the holes that are used for the anchor cables.

If you're having trouble bending the hose, just bend them a little too much and it will come back where you wanted it initially. Hope that helps.

Aalak, on 26 February 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

P.S. I tried to estimate the time I used to build the Ares and the little nameless ship so far... I was shocked... 150h, with 3 complete rebuilds so far ...

Apparently you have more time available than I do, at least the last 2 months! That also explains why you've been so extraordinary fast in your progress!  

Great progress, I'm curious how this will look when finished!  

[Aalak]

Time for a update:

Even if it doesn't look like much change, there was a lot...

First of, I used the feedback and shortened the masts. I  reduced the length of the thicker part of the masts and put the first plattform to a more acurate hight but I didn't like the results. So I shortend the topmasts and topgallant masts with the axle-connectors instead. I shortend the Mainmast by 7 --- that's maybe 10 % ... I know it should be more, but I like my longer masts. The Mizzen and Foremast are more accuratein hight now, too.

I just put them on the mainmast to make it visible:


I changed some little details in the platforms, too... and finally got a complete new rigging - (still no cross-rigging). The Spanker will be a bit bigger, than normally thanks to the longer part oft Mizzen-Mast.



The masts are fixed with 8 additional lines - 2x3 on the back, 2 at the front. The "Klettertakelage", don't know the english-term, for the part of the rigging which is used for climbing the masts, are fixed to the black rings. the stabilizing is fixed to the red rings. (since there is no cross-rigging, it's hard to tell, so I tell). Ok the picture is bad, from left to right: r b b b b r r r

I used that for inspiaration an positioning of the extra lines:


And finally I bought some black flags for the gun ports... bye bye blue ones... and changed a bit of the headrails. Which are finished for now, I like them now

Ok- the angle is a little bit crappy   But It looks much better in reality.

The next update will take a while, I need to buy some cloth for the sails first...

Feedack and tipps for sailmaking are welcome :)

[Admiral Croissant]

It's only too bad that the main sections of all the masts are too long compared to the other sections.
But outside of that it's a beautiful frigate!   It has definitely improved a lot lately.
The hoses for the headrails look excellent on your ship and really make we want to do the same on the Vesta as soon as I have the time/money.

I made my sails with an old piece of cloth. I put it in black tea for a night. Then I made vertical lines on it with a pencil (1 cm between them)
On the edges I made brown lines which represent the ropes that are on the sides of real sails.
And finally it's very useful to put some varnish, nail polish (? not sure, I believe Perfectionist did that) or glue on the edges.
That's for preventing the edges from unrafeling.

Good luck on this beauty!

[Perfectionist]

Admiral Croissant, on 21 March 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

It's only too bad that the main sections of all the masts are too long compared to the other sections.

That is indeed very unfortunate and bothering me a lot too! Apart from that it's such a beauty, but the masts do sort of spoil it a bit, at least for me...   The mentioned main parts need to be shorter as well. It's hard to judge from the picture, maybe just try to use this picture as a reference?  


I know it's been posted in this thread before, but still it seems you could still make a lot of progress by studying the mast proportions; the realtive size of the lowest mast section in this case.  

It would of course be another major improvement if you were to add more black "iron rings" with a regular spacing to at least the lower mast section! Also I think the yards are too big at the top (esspecially royals).

So BEFORE you start to make sails or progress on the build please, please spend some time on the masts. I know it isn't easy. I rebuild my masts a lot too until I felt them to be good enough to start with the rigging; and they still are not perfect!

The headrails have improved a lot, but the lowest hose should still bend differently, or you could simply get rid of it if you don't manage to have it bend more naturally (i.e. less steep and higher on the bow). It's fully optional and not so much a part of the headrails themselves and should represent an ornamnetal line below them.

Well, apart from the unproportioned masts your ship however does look quite impressive! The thin red line really adds a lot to her beauty!  

I wish you the best of luck continuing with this project. With a few changes on the masts you can put this ship among the best on this forum.  

[Aalak]

OK OK OK - you two finally got me to do it, I started to shorten them!!!  

btw - I guess I asked it before, wich glue did you use for the cross-rigging? Since we both live in Germany, I could use the advice, I tried on - a model-glue but it didn't worked...

[Perfectionist]

Aalak, on 26 March 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

OK OK OK - you two finally got me to do it, I started to shorten them!!!  

btw - I guess I asked it before, wich glue did you use for the cross-rigging? Since we both live in Germany, I could use the advice, I tried on - a model-glue but it didn't worked...

Pattex Repair Extreme Gel  

It is an amazing glue for that purpose. I was really lucky to find it since none of the other glues I tried worked satisfactory.

[Aalak]

Perfectionist, on 26 March 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

Pattex Repair Extreme Gel  

It is an amazing glue for that purpose. I was really lucky to find it since none of the other glues I tried worked satisfactory.

Thanks, I guess I find it in every good sorted hardware store   - and here is the Ares with her new, and improved ... aehm... ok, shortened masts... I removed 1/3 of of the round bricks - and ok, it's still looking great... you two where right about it.   It took nearly 3,5h to rearange the rigging,( )  but hopefully it was the last time for a while.

[Admiral Croissant]

Aalak, on 27 March 2011 - 12:03 PM, said:

It took nearly 3,5h to rearange the rigging,( )  but hopefully it was the last time for a while.

It was well worth it!
She's just beautiful now and I can't wait to see her under full sail!
I think you should join us when (or if) we're going to Legoworld next year. I've got to see her IRL
Good luck on the sails. EDIT: By the way, are you going to add studding sails?

Edited by Admiral Croissant, 27 March 2011 - 12:12 PM.

[Aalak]

Admiral Croissant, on 27 March 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

It was well worth it!
She's just beautiful now and I can't wait to see her under full sail!
I think you should join us when (or if) we're going to Legoworld next year. I've got to see her IRL
Good luck on the sails. EDIT: By the way, are you going to add studding sails?

I'm still thinking about it, the main mast yards got the extra technic axles for this purpose.. so I guess, yes she will get some...

And finally she fits on my bookshelf:

Edited by Aalak, 27 March 2011 - 01:45 PM.

[Aalak]

I didn't have much time to do a lot lately(compared to the process in the first 3 months of the build), but I've finished cross-rigging, so I want to share a short update with you:

Before cutting the edges:


A "fleet" shot:


The cropped climbing-rigging:


Sails are next. Hope you like it so far...

[Admiral Croissant]

Looks beautiful with all the rigging
But if you'd like to make your rigging more perfect, I hace a few small suggestions:

I believe I haven't seen those "red lines" on other ships, so I think they could be removed.
You could add brace lines instead (I've made them green) so you can turn the yards.
You can also see brace lines quite clearly on this picture.
And you could make them moveable (like I did on the Vesta), but that's quite difficult. Non-mveable would look great too of course

But outside of that your ship is terrific! I just noticed it hasn't been frontpaged so far. Let's change that.

[Aalak]

Admiral Croissant, on 10 April 2011 - 10:14 AM, said:

Looks beautiful with all the rigging
But if you'd like to make your rigging more perfect, I hace a few small suggestions:

I believe I haven't seen those "red lines" on other ships, so I think they could be removed.
You could add brace lines instead (I've made them green) so you can turn the yards.
You can also see brace lines quite clearly on this picture.
And you could make them moveable (like I did on the Vesta), but that's quite difficult. Non-mveable would look great too of course

But outside of that your ship is terrific! I just noticed it hasn't been frontpaged so far. Let's change that.

Thanks for the blogging!!! As for the horizontal red lines ... I looked at the sail and rigging plan I used and deciphered it ... they are bracelines in the plan and not attached to the masts, ups  

I'll experiment with the idea of using bracelines. only thing is, that only the lower yards coulb originally be turned, but to create the effect, that they coud do that and to actually hold the upper yards in a horizontal position would be a nice touch. But for that I like another color of string, the Black is quite dominant. I'll guess I have to go shopping again. I experimented mit normal rope but didn't like the results, since they allways split at the ends. The best way for me is synthetic fiber for knitting  

The other two red lines where originally there to hold the mizzen mast in place. I guess they could go now since there are three more lines attached to the bowspit which do the job, too.

Thanks for the Feedback, more is welcome  

[Tazmaniac]

WOW that looks great!!
Are the sails far away?
Yet another top ship to add to the CP fleet