18 replies to this topic

[Khaine]

Hey guys,

I'm new here, recently got my lego collection back from 1989-2002 back from my parents and of course started with rebuilding all the good classic pirate stuff. I've since been obsessed and have added from ebay, built custom ships etc etc.

Wanting something to do with them all, I came across Steve Jacksons Lego Pirate game and was very impressed. However for a small group we found the rules to comber-son. So like all good nerds, I immediately set pen to paper and came up with a simple game system so we can all push lego toys around the house.

Inspired in equal parts by Steve Jacksons rule set, and the play style of Sid Meiers pirates the rules are simple but allow quite a lot of depth. For those of you that have time, i'd love you to have a read (Keep in mind it is a draft) and offer me some feedback.

Also, if you are in the Sydney region and would like to help with Play testing drop me a line!

Link to rule set

Regards,

Khaine
allan+warpfactor10.com.au (Swap the + for @)

[Brig. Brick]

Hi and welcome to eurobricks

well, It looks like a great proyect, its nice when you said you used Sid Meier's pirates!, I love the piratopedia !

about your game, I quickly read the pdf and I guess you will need a lot of space to play

I think you could mix your regulation of movement, shooting and other points of action with the principles of that other post, made by gatorzip02

besides, I think we need many different ships to play, and be nice to see which boats are in your collection (everyone here likes pictures )

good lucke with your game!!!

Edited by Brig. Brick, 28 October 2010 - 01:12 AM.

[Khaine]

Brig. Brick, on 28 October 2010 - 01:11 AM, said:

about your game, I quickly read the pdf and I guess you will need a lot of space to play

Yeah, it does take quite some space. I'm blessed with a 5 bedroom house for myself and my son, so the whole house becomes the housibbean. I have done smaller games using CM instead of inches, and besides ships appearing to turn to quickly works well.

Quote

besides, I think we need many different ships to play, and be nice to see which boats are in your collection (everyone here likes pictures )

To achieve the role play aspect and climbing the ladder, you do need a range of different ships. You can also play once off battles, or linked battles rather than a "grand campaign" if that makes sense.

My collection includes 2 Cutters (From the Trading post, Copied it for a second), 1 large cutter using the same basic design but 3 angled prow's rather than 2, and 1 stud wider, about 6 studs longer. 1 x Caribbean Clipper, 2 x Admiral Flag ship (the small sloopish design), 2 x Black Seas, 1 x skull's eye, 1 x Imperial Flagship (the new one), 1 custom built brig (2 center sections) and 1 custom built Trade Galleon (also 2 center sections)

My hope is, that even if you have 2 ships though, you can still enjoy a battle or 3. I'll take some pictures over the weekend for those like.

Khaine

[Captain Genaro]

Looks like you have your work cut out for you. The game looks fun to play but I do have several questions.

First, what is a famous or infamous person? Blackbeard, Henry Morgan or players with a lot of reputation?
Second, how do you classify MOC ships?
Finally, why do some ships have strange values ( Royal sloop is 4851 insted of 4850 )?
Best of luck with the game!

[Khaine]

Captain Genaro, on 28 October 2010 - 03:28 AM, said:

Looks like you have your work cut out for you. The game looks fun to play but I do have several questions.

First, what is a famous or infamous person? Blackbeard, Henry Morgan or players with a lot of reputation?

Hey, thanks for having a read! Famous/Infamous is just a name for a trait to show that a player inspires others to flock to his flag more than his/her reputation would suggest. IE The son of Blackbeard (Not sure if said person exists) would be a good example. He might not have a reputation himself per se' but certainly his name would attract a few sailors because of his name alone.

Quote

Second, how do you classify MOC ships?
Finally, why do some ships have strange values ( Royal sloop is 4851 insted of 4850 )?

Some MOC ships are easier to classify than official set ones. EG Trade Galleon and Brig of War were both custom built to be those ships. Other MOC ships like the copied larger ship from the trading post just got called "brig". I also have a Pinnace which is custom built to be a Pinnace.

It got harder trying to classify the offical sets, and really in the end names just got chosen based roughly on what they "might" be.

IE: SES is a Galleon, BSS got labeled a East Indiaman (Mainly as I have two, and one has been customized to be a "cargo" ship), The Imperial Flagship got labeled Royal Sloop, the new Flagship is of course a Ship of the line. The hard one... The Caribbean clipper... It doesn't really match anything other than a cog, so I added another fore/aft sail on the mizzen mast and slotted it in as an older Carrack.

Ship classification also depends on location to, as they all had different rules and names.

The way the stats are worked out is via a spreadsheet I have written, where I actually input the Length, Width, Height, Number and type of sails. So even if the names are wrong the stats should be at least in balance with each other based on merits of each ships design. The primary rule that longer is faster (for same ratio of canvas), narrower is more maneuverer, Fore/Aft sails provide better close hauled handling, Square sails provide more speed with the wind and stand up to combat better.

This also provides a good between game activity, as building a ship we consider the basic "rules" to design a ship to work how we want, and then build it that way.

That is also why there are weird stats like the odd value figures, as this is also worked out via the spreadsheet. The hope is with play testing that tweaking the formula used to create the ships stats will allow a balance game of equal value ships.

Regards,

Khaine

[SkaForHire]

I took a quick read, looks interesting. I am in the middle of preparing for my comprehensive exams right now, but after I take them I will break out a few of my ships and try out your rules with my brother.  IT is always good to see other Lego wargamers coming up with new rule sets. We hope to role out the first version of our own game that we have been making for the last two years this Christmas.

I will give more feedback after the New Year.

Khaine, on 28 October 2010 - 07:32 AM, said:

Hey, thanks for having a read! Famous/Infamous is just a name for a trait to show that a player inspires others to flock to his flag more than his/her reputation would suggest. IE The son of Blackbeard (Not sure if said person exists) would be a good example. He might not have a reputation himself per se' but certainly his name would attract a few sailors because of his name alone.



Some MOC ships are easier to classify than official set ones. EG Trade Galleon and Brig of War were both custom built to be those ships. Other MOC ships like the copied larger ship from the trading post just got called "brig". I also have a Pinnace which is custom built to be a Pinnace.

It got harder trying to classify the offical sets, and really in the end names just got chosen based roughly on what they "might" be.

IE: SES is a Galleon, BSS got labeled a East Indiaman (Mainly as I have two, and one has been customized to be a "cargo" ship), The Imperial Flagship got labeled Royal Sloop, the new Flagship is of course a Ship of the line. The hard one... The Caribbean clipper... It doesn't really match anything other than a cog, so I added another fore/aft sail on the mizzen mast and slotted it in as an older Carrack.

Ship classification also depends on location to, as they all had different rules and names.

The way the stats are worked out is via a spreadsheet I have written, where I actually input the Length, Width, Height, Number and type of sails. So even if the names are wrong the stats should be at least in balance with each other based on merits of each ships design. The primary rule that longer is faster (for same ratio of canvas), narrower is more maneuverer, Fore/Aft sails provide better close hauled handling, Square sails provide more speed with the wind and stand up to combat better.

This also provides a good between game activity, as building a ship we consider the basic "rules" to design a ship to work how we want, and then build it that way.

That is also why there are weird stats like the odd value figures, as this is also worked out via the spreadsheet. The hope is with play testing that tweaking the formula used to create the ships stats will allow a balance game of equal value ships.

Regards,

Khaine

[Captain Blackmoor]

I'm going to build some small ships and play! What an amazing game, though it looks like it costs some time to finish a single game.
Great for the upcoming rainy and cold days!

[Phred]

I would love to play ship(s) to ship(s)/fort(s) combat with Lego.

In the near future, I hope to transfer all of the rules and calculations of ESPG onto an Excel spread sheet.  I've made a few things for gaming in Excel, but I have a lot to go.  Since most people I know already have a laptop.  People could have one of these files open during the game play.  My goal would be to have simpler and faster game play so that more time can be devoted to more important stuff such as pillaging and killing.  

[Khaine]

Brig Brick said:

I think we need many different ships to play, and be nice to see which boats are in your collection (everyone here likes pictures  )

Here are some rather bad pictures (Phone camera) but gives you an idea of my fleet.


The new Flagship and a custom built Brig of War. The brig is actually made form a knock off of the BSB that my sister bought me. This was my first custom ship, as I could not bring myself to use it to make such a grand ship as the BSB. Overall it came out ok, but the yellow is awful, and I would not recommend the knock of stuff to anyone. A lot of the peices went straight into the bin.


This is my custom built Snow and second BSB, I've changed the figure head at the front, and added some shields near the rear to distinguish it from my other one. Both this BSB and the other in my game as are called East Indiaman. (I know, they look like Galleons, but hey)


Caribbean clipper and old flagship. The CC is a Carrack in my ruleset, and the Flagship is a Sloop of War. the sails on both these ships have been replaced with Calico, then iron on transfers to apply the strips and pictures.


Skulls Eye Schooner and my first BSB. This BSB has been re-sailed to look more like a peaceful merchant. The SES is listed as a Galleon in my rules. I need to apply the black strips to the SES sails still.


A custom built pinnace using the curvered reverse sloops to make the hull.


The original cutter from the trading post. (Re-Sailed)


Two Larger/Small ships that will be "brigs" in my rule set.

SkaForHire said:

I took a quick read, looks interesting. I am in the middle of preparing for my comprehensive exams right now, but after I take them I will break out a few of my ships and try out your rules with my brother. IT is always good to see other Lego wargamers coming up with new rule sets. We hope to role out the first version of our own game that we have been making for the last two years this Christmas.

I'd love to have a read and try them out when you have them ready!

Captain Blackmoor, on 28 October 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

I'm going to build some small ships and play! What an amazing game, though it looks like it costs some time to finish a single game.
Great for the upcoming rainy and cold days!

A couple of small ships in a battle should be pretty quick, once you get the hang of the rules you'll rarely need to refer to them. Hope you have fun!

Regards,

Khaine

[Captain Genaro]

Thanks for answering my questions, now I have some more.

Are there any ship/fort combat rules?
How do you determine who is at war?
On ships like the new IFS, can you shoot a starboard broadside if your cannons are on the port side or do you have to move them first?

P.S. Maximum picture size is 800x600 pixels

[Khaine]

Captain Genaro, on 29 October 2010 - 01:03 AM, said:

Thanks for answering my questions, now I have some more.

Are there any ship/fort combat rules?
How do you determine who is at war?
On ships like the new IFS, can you shoot a starboard broadside if your cannons are on the port side or do you have to move them first?

P.S. Maximum picture size is 800x600 pixels

I've resized the pictures. Sorry about that. :) Refresh should make it all fit now.

I'm still working on a set of tables that you can roll on after every battle, that determines things like, who is now at war, peace, offering amnesty etc. It will also work out what NPC ships are moving and where they are moving it to. But currently the Game Master makes those decisions. The tables will be for groups that don't have enough people to dedicate someone to just running the game. IE a random table GM.

Nothing yet on for combat set in stone. Currently we just assign around 50 Hull points to a fort, it can't move has no rigging so ignores rigging hits, (But not crew hits). Keep in mind that fort cannon on turntables are considered fixed so get a +1 to hit. Also, the -3 penalty for being stationary applies to hitting a fort.

Any cannon on a ships broadside may switch to the other side for free. So in essence ships like the CC have 4 guns, but can only shoot 2 at a time. Ideally I would change this if I had enough cannon to fully equip ships with cannons on both sides, but I don't. :( If you do however, I would probably make it an action to move the cannon.

Regards,

Khaine

[Khaine]

Khaine, on 28 October 2010 - 07:32 AM, said:

The way the stats are worked out is via a spreadsheet I have written, where I actually input the Length, Width, Height, Number and type of sails. So even if the names are wrong the stats should be at least in balance with each other based on merits of each ships design. The primary rule that longer is faster (for same ratio of canvas), narrower is more maneuverer, Fore/Aft sails provide better close hauled handling, Square sails provide more speed with the wind and stand up to combat better.

Also, if you have MoC ships you'd like stats for this rule set, post a picture and I'll put its stats into my spreadsheet and give you back its ships summary card.

Regards,

Khaine

[Khaine]

I have updated the rules with some minor changes:

* Ships can now carry twice the cargo, at half the value. (Just to make the decks look fuller)
* Each deserting crewman now causes you to lose 1 reputation. (To avoid high rep pirates from never splitting the booty and relying on their high rep to recruit more)
* Bluecoats and Redcoats now have a higher chance of recruiting marines. (1 in 3 should now be marines)
* Added new Trait "Loyal" An officer less likely to desert or steal a prize ship.
* Added the ability to purchase cannon from ports for 250gold each. (Not cheap, you are better of stealing them!)
* Ships now surrender during a boarding action if outnumbered 5 to 1 or last crewman alive.
* Now have a chance to recruit survivors after a boarding action.

Next changes:
Campaign turns and management.
Starting a new pirate and crew.
Changes to desertion / splitting the booty if playing as Redcoats or Bluecoats.
Scrolling playfield. (Something I used last night that reduces the space needed, at least during one on one battles)

[Captain Becker]

Intresting game... and lots of rules. Anyway, you shouldd do a PC game like this as well   Would gladly test this game, but i havent enough of time, space and ships   Anyway, this is a great game and a perfect for a rainy days.

Captain Becker

[Cherno]

Hi Khaine,

first of all, let me thank you for putting up these rules, it must have been a lot of work.

After reading the newest version, I have two comments/questions to make:

1. The procedure for computing movement loss through rigging hits seems to be quiet complicated, does this affect actual gameplay, i.e. does it occur often enough to be a nuisance?
2. Does a ship which docks at a port/another (friendly) ship automatically counts as having dropped it's anchor?
3. From what I understand, the rule for fellow sailors to heal/revive their knocked down comrades after battle seems to be superfluous, as wounded minifigs get a chance to heal themselves on a roll of 6, anyway.

I might try out your ruleset in a few weeks when my fleet is ready, as it looks to be a lot less of a daunting task than ESPG :)

Edited by Cherno, 17 November 2010 - 09:19 PM.

[Khaine]

Hi Cherno!

Cherno, on 17 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

1. The procedure for computing movement loss through rigging hits seems to be quiet complicated, does this affect actual gameplay, i.e. does it occur often enough to be a nuisance?

It does seem a little complicated, and certainly it does occur often and a lot of the time people take the chance of missing in order to hit the rigging. (To slow them down). In reality though, once people know their ships its not to bad. Lose 1 inch per rigging hit. When you are at 50% of your rigging your speed is halved, each extra point then continues on taking off and other inch.

I have changed the summary cards slightly since that also shows your best under each hit to help in this regard.

I I could think of a simplified system than this, I would probably change it.

Cherno, on 17 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

2. Does a ship which docks at a port/another (friendly) ship automatically counts as having dropped it's anchor?

Yes, outside of combat unless a ship has a major crewing shortage its ok to take these things as granted.

Cherno, on 17 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

3. From what I understand, the rule for fellow sailors to heal/revive their knocked down comrades after battle seems to be superfluous, as wounded minifigs get a chance to heal themselves on a roll of 6, anyway.

I'll have to check how I wrote that, but the intent is that wounded minifigs can heal themselves AFTER combat not during. So fellow sailors have a go during combat may get you that figure back before the end of the combat.

Thanks for having a read and the feedback!

Khaine

[Cherno]

Alright, the last point does make a lot more sense, now. It didn't occur to me that minifigs could try to bandage the wounded in the middle of a battle.

Thank you for answering my questions!

Alas, I have another one:

Do you see any possibility of posting the rules regarding ship values in the near future? The ships in my fleet are all constructed to be in a certain class, as is the case in the ESPG rules. That means I have several ships of Class 2, class 3 etc., with each class having a fixed number of sails, cannons and crew. so I would only need a general guideline of figuring out a ship's cost/value based on it's class. On the other hand, I could just give each player one ship of every class, but then again I wouldn't know what to charge if a player wants to purchase a new ship in a longer, RPG-style game :)

Edit: And just another thought: It might be a good thing to divide the rules into basic rules for combat-only-scenarios and optional/aditional rules concerning campaign aspects like dividing booty, reputation, recruiting...

Edited by Cherno, 17 November 2010 - 11:53 PM.

[Cherno]

Alright, I just gave your rules a try. I played a few turns, testing the rules regarding maneuvering and cannon firing.

I took three crews of pirates, each with 4 men and one cutter. I used the cutter profile from your rules, but gave it two max cannons instead of one.

These are the things I noticed (maybe some aspects only occur when playing with smaller ships).

1. With smaller ships and therefore smaller crews, it would be good to disregard the need for having a navigator/captain on board in order to move the ship. Otherwise, the corresponding figure gets killed far too easy and the ship can't move anymore. As a house rule, I would suggest that a navigator is only needed in ships above cutter size (cutters typically having about 4 to 6 men onboard).

2. Again regarding smaller ships with higher maneuvre stats (3 or higher), the movement loss through rigging hits is too small if the rigging isn't "halved". On a ship with maneuvre 4 and rigging 4, the first and third hit would only cost 0.25 inches, which basically is too small to be taken into account when moving. Maybe rigging hits should instead just cost 1 inch of speed and 1 maneuvre to a minimum of 1?

3. A rule for setting wind speed and direction for turn 1 is missing. Of course, this is purely cosmetical. I just threw an 8-sided dice for direction and set the strength to normal.

4. The firring modifier when the target ship has moved I quite difficult to use. It reminds me of BattleTech, where one has to remember/write down the number of hexes each unit has moved every turn. Also, it isn't clear what is meant by "target ships moved/didn't move it's full movement allowance", since the speed changes according to wind strength and direction, as wel as rigging hits taken. Suggestion: If ship speed should be taken into account, a simple modifier for the absolute number of inches a ship has moved could be used, i. e. "1-20 inches: -1, 21-40 inches: -2" and so on. An additional modifier for firing at small ships is also possible.

5. The crew can get decimated very quickly through cannon fire, and in smaller crews the chance is very high that someone important (like the navigator, see above) is killed outright without any chance of reviving him or her.

6. The movement speed when sailing "against the wind" seems to be pretty high, often times three quarters of full frontal speed. I guess this is in order to lessen the impact of wind direction, so players sailing against the wind don't havw to be sitting ducks. Also, a stronger wind would actually slow the ship down when it sails against the wind's direction instead of making it faster, but this was probably omitted to keep it simple :)

I hope I can help you with my observations so far. What I especially like about your rules is the simplicity of just sailing around and shooting at the enemy. Very quick to learn.

Edited by Cherno, 28 November 2010 - 09:04 PM.

[Lord Valgor]

These look pretty sweet! I have experience writing board game rules and whatnot, so I know that it can be a daunting task lol. I also had a quick question. Your largest ship type is the "Ship of the Line" and it states that it has a max cannon count of 7, whereas the IF can hold 8. How did you determine max cannon count? Anyways, I like what you have done and will be sure to try this out some time.
PS- I think you should have some ports belong to factions and allow them to be attacked, but be sure to give them plus 5-10 armor or something rather because they are the "homes" of the players. Also maybe allow Pirate factions to raid neutral ports to gain money, while the Red/Blue coats can levy taxes or something. Anyways, just a fun thought, and I will be sure to keep posted on this lol.

[EDIT]
One other thing, I am noticing that your larger ships tend to have a greater total movement (distance) than the smaller ones which have greater maneuverability (turning and other capabilities), I haven't played yet so this may be balanced as is, but as far as real life the smaller ships were more maneuverable and faster. I guess I am asking, is it balanced the way it is and I should just be quiet? lol.

Edited by Lord Valgor, 30 November 2010 - 11:34 PM.