124 replies to this topic

[Masked Builder]

That seems promising...

[Superkalle]

The problem with starting a sub-forum is that there needs to be certain traffic/action if the sub-forum is not to feel dead. Also EB is primarily a forum, i.e. a place for discussions and activity. Sometimes static topics, like collecting/preservation/cleaning may be better off that focus on these things (since there is less inflow of dsscussions compared to MOC building and such). But an index topic can be a good way to test the interest of a subject before taking it to the next level (being a sub-forum).

On the other hand, creating an index can sometimes be a high hurdle to get things moving. Firstly, you need someone to start it and actively keep track of topics, and secondly index topics don't have a lot of attraction power (not fun to read basically). It's a bit like then hen and the egg. There will be no index if people don't post - and people wont' post if they can't see certain "critical mass". There needs to be a few persons who take a subject seriously to get things going. Small/odd topics someimes have the risk of drowning in the flood of other topics before they have a chance to take off. It's like launching a small bark boat on a roaring river. It doesn't take long before it vanishes.

One solution could be to have a staging area of new sub-forums where you try out ideas. You can allow them to be there for a few months and see what happens. If there is a lot of interest, it can take off, if not, it will self-die.

[Fugazi]

This is all good advice Superkalle, thanks for your insight. While there is always a fair amount of interest when a collecting or historical topic pops up, these are relatively few and far between, probably not enough to support a sub-forum on their own. But as you said, some hype is often required to get things moving. I'm sure that given time, and with the ever growing (and aging!) AFOL community, these topics will come up more often. I'm no expert but I have the feeling that the collecting community is living and sharing primarily in the Bricklink forum, but I don't see a reason why EB couldn't have their own archives and collector's corner.

That said, I think there is enough material already to warrant the creation of an index, if that would help get things started and encourage members to submit their articles or photos. Is there anyone from the staff (or outwith) that would like to tackle this task? If no one else will I can probably do it, if I can be authorised to. It can't hurt to have quicker access to those still relevant topics that would drift into oblivion otherwise.

[Legoman]

Hi guys. This is just an idea I've had, and thought I would share it with the Community to see what people would think.

I've recently been working on a MOC, and if you look at the link you'll see It has really come long way with the help and Ideas of fellow EB members, which got me thinking. Isn't that a similar idea to the concept behind the EB reviewers academy? To grow great Reviewers? Could EB have a MOCers academy, where people can get help and idea's on MOC's they are designing from very talented MOCers?

It's just an Idea, but I thought I'd put it out there, as it would grow a base of very Talented MOCers for EB.

Thoughts?  

-Legoman

Edited by Legoman, 30 January 2011 - 08:57 PM.

[Brickdoctor]

I'd love that, but I think there might be some problems because we all have a different style of MOCing. It's not like the RA where you have a style, but everything fits into a general outline. I, for example, like small to medium vehicles with an emphasis on smoothness and aesthetics, while there are others who like large studded cruisers, and some who like absolute accuracy, and still others who like huge dioramas with hundreds of minifigs.

[CorneliusMurdock]

I thought the entire site was like a MOCer's academy.  I know my building skills have vastly improved just from looking at the works of others and opening my mind to different part usages.  Throughout the forums, if you post a MOC and ask for guidance there are plenty of people who line up to give you just that.  That's just one of the great things about this site.

[prateek]

Exactly as Cornelius has stated. This whole site is meant to be a so called "MOCer's Academy." As you've said yourself, you've gotten a lot of feedback in your own topic to make it better. Isn't that what you're asking for?

[Legoman]

Brickdoctor, on 30 January 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

I'd love that, but I think there might be some problems because we all have a different style of MOCing. It's not like the RA where you have a style, but everything fits into a general outline. I, for example, like small to medium vehicles with an emphasis on smoothness and aesthetics, while there are others who like large studded cruisers, and some who like absolute accuracy, and still others who like huge dioramas with hundreds of minifigs.

Very true, but I think people would be able to take and leave opinions as they like. At the end of the day, there's still Good MOC's and Bad MOC's, styles are usually universally accepted, even if not used  

CorneliusMurdock, on 30 January 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

I thought the entire site was like a MOCer's academy.  I know my building skills have vastly improved just from looking at the works of others and opening my mind to different part usages.  Throughout the forums, if you post a MOC and ask for guidance there are plenty of people who line up to give you just that.  That's just one of the great things about this site.

prateek, on 30 January 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

Exactly as Cornelius has stated. This whole site is meant to be a so called "MOCer's Academy." As you've said yourself, you've gotten a lot of feedback in your own topic to make it better. Isn't that what you're asking for?

Yes, true, But you could say the same thing about the RA could you not? I totally understand what you're saying, and that is very legitimate. But I also think it could be a nice enviroment where lots of advice can be freely given to learners without any need to fear not being good enough to compare to other MOCers here at EB

[prateek]

The RA is for fine tuning your photography and review skills, nothing to do with actual Lego. MOCing is an art, which has no rules, so any guidelines taught in a potential academy will be useless.

[Sisco]

Wait, I see a flaw in this.  You couldn't really grade a MOC, could you?  A review is easy to grade, mainly because the teachers are looking for a specific thing that they know needs adjusting.  How would they know what to look for in a MOC?  Different teachers would be looking for different things in a MOC.  A review, while maybe varying slightly from reviewer to reviewer, is pretty much universalized.  I'm sorry, but I don't think a MOCer's Academy would work.

[Legoman]

Okey dokey. Seems I'm outnumbered  

All fair points guys  

[Sinner]

prateek, on 30 January 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

The RA is for fine tuning your photography and review skills, nothing to do with actual Lego. MOCing is an art, which has no rules, so any guidelines taught in a potential academy will be useless.

cralegoboy, on 30 January 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

Wait, I see a flaw in this.  You couldn't really grade a MOC, could you?  A review is easy to grade, mainly because the teachers are looking for a specific thing that they know needs adjusting.  How would they know what to look for in a MOC?  Different teachers would be looking for different things in a MOC.  A review, while maybe varying slightly from reviewer to reviewer, is pretty much universalized.  I'm sorry, but I don't think a MOCer's Academy would work.

Yes. I personally would be against this proposal for the above reasons.

[Superkalle]

I agree with the others

But thanks for bringing up the idea Legoman

[Ralph_S]

I'm not so sure how well Eurobricks already works in terms of being somewhat of a MOCers academy. MOCs being showcased can be source of inspiration and I enjoy some of the general LEGO-related banter, but I think it's rare to see comments that actually give useful tips for improvements -and not just on my own MOCs.

I am glad that Eurobricks is a welcoming place for all AFOLs, irrespective of their specific interests and skills, and it's a good thing that people are being very nice and encouraging to each other, but I do get the impression that most people who post their creations here aren't looking for criticism. Most of the comments given are along the lines of 'nice' and 'great' and whatnot, even if the creation is a bit rubbish IMO. You cannot rigidly define criteria for what is great and what isn't, but there are big differences in the level of experience and skill of builders who post their MOCs here. The MOCs can't all be great and they aren't.

What do people do when they see a MOC they don't like? I suspect that they just don't comment at all. BTW, this immediately makes me wonder what's wrong with the MOCs that I posted that got no comments. I'd rather hear somebody telling me that they don't like it than the MOC in question being ignored completely. I'm a stubborn fellow and think I generally know what I'm doing, but I don't always get things right and a different perspective can help. I do write comments that often do contain some criticism (which I do try to balance by also complimenting the features that I do like), but I'm not sure the criticism is appreciated by everyone. Receiving criticism and dishing it out isn't an easy thing to do.  

Perhaps that is where an explicit MOCers academy could help. If you post your MOC or work in progress there, you can make it explicit that you are looking for feedback aimed at improving it.

Cheers,
Ralph

[Sinner]

Ralph_S, on 30 January 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

Perhaps that is where an explicit MOCers academy could help. If you post your MOC or work in progress there, you can make it explicit that you are looking for feedback aimed at improving it.

You make a fair point. I must confess that I very rarely want major suggestions for improvement when I post MOCs; I normally don't make WIP topics and in most case I've already spent several weeks on what I'm posting and after much swooshing I've done all of the tweaking I plan to do in the short term. Thus if I receive comments for major changes (such as covering studs or adding more colour) I tend to be a bit annoyed (and even defensive   ) instead of fully appreciating the time members have made making the comment. I suspect many others are the same.

But not everyone is, and gits like me could be making things bad for others. The solution? Not sure. Perhaps people should add a line to their MOC description saying something like RFC (Request for Comments   ) ... or maybe a forum is appropriate. MOC factory?  

This is becoming an interesting topic. I'm going to raise this issue with the rest of the staff.

[Admiral Croissant]

Or perhaps we could just make some kind of index for certain building techniques.
A "chapter" for roofs, for walls, trees, etc.

[Skalldyr]

Admiral Croissant, on 30 January 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

Or perhaps we could just make some kind of index for certain building techniques.
A "chapter" for roofs, for walls, trees, etc.

That would be nice! I like to figure the things out by myself, but sometimes I'm just thankful for pictures like that one: Klick!

[Brickdoctor]

Siegfried, on 30 January 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

But not everyone is, and gits like me could be making things bad for others. The solution? Not sure. Perhaps people should add a line to their MOC description saying something like RFC (Request for Comments   ) ... or maybe a forum is appropriate. MOC factory?  

Some members (myself included) put 'C&C welcome,' for Comments and Criticism.

[Legoman]

Ralph_S, on 30 January 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

I'm not so sure how well Eurobricks already works in terms of being somewhat of a MOCers academy...

Cheers,
Ralph

Thanks for summing up those points so well, You've really clarified what I was thinking!  

Siegfried, on 30 January 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

I must confess that I very rarely want major suggestions for improvement when I post MOCs; I normally don't make WIP topics and in most case I've already spent several weeks on what I'm posting and after much swooshing I've done all of the tweaking I plan to do in the short term. Thus if I receive comments for major changes (such as covering studs or adding more colour) I tend to be a bit annoyed (and even defensive    ) instead of fully appreciating the time members have made making the comment.

Fair enough. Thats also perhaps shows the reason for your previous thoughts    And that would be well understood - People wouldn't have to do anything they don't want to, It would be intirely open, and optional. Builders can choose to post in the forum (or not), It would just a free-er enviroment for people to be sharing Comments, Ideas and Criticism. If someone was in a position such as you, you could freely post in the normal forum as you will, and be free of 'annoying' comments  

Siegfried, on 30 January 2011 - 12:21 PM, said:

Perhaps people should add a line to their MOC description saying something like RFC (Request for Comments  )

That could actully be a good idea, even if no forum is opened, People could add RFC to the title of the topic, EG: WIP MOC '_________' RFC or something, to let people know they're looking for other opinions and ideas (it's just another little idea, but could help sort people as far as what responces they get?   )

[Mrlegoninja]

I'd be with this idea. There could be threads about SNOT, making SNOT bases, Door and Window techniques, etc.
It'd be nice if it was open to all people, meaning everyone could post in someone else's thread.
Or perhaps there could be a board of members that look over MOCs. There could be a person or persons for each of these catagories:
6 wide cars
4 wide cars
Castle style houses
Military vehicles and scenes
Star wars vehicles
Etc.
So my idea is that in every MOC there is a line at the end that says:
Please have XXXX comment on my MOC as he/she is good at building XXXXXX.
Then, you wouldn't have people that are good at building spaceships comment on a thread about boats.

[Masked Builder]

Siegfried, on 30 January 2011 - 07:06 AM, said:

prateek, on 30 January 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

The RA is for fine tuning your photography and review skills, nothing to do with actual Lego. MOCing is an art, which has no rules, so any guidelines taught in a potential academy will be useless.

cralegoboy, on 30 January 2011 - 06:43 AM, said:

Wait, I see a flaw in this.  You couldn't really grade a MOC, could you?  A review is easy to grade, mainly because the teachers are looking for a specific thing that they know needs adjusting.  How would they know what to look for in a MOC?  Different teachers would be looking for different things in a MOC.  A review, while maybe varying slightly from reviewer to reviewer, is pretty much universalized.  I'm sorry, but I don't think a MOCer's Academy would work.

Yes. I personally would be against this proposal for the above reasons.

I agree with Siedfried here.  Just because MOCs would be rather hard to grade and everyone builds in their own style.

[CorneliusMurdock]

I like the RFC in the title idea more than a specialized forum.  That way the MOCs can still be in the appropriate forum and we don't have another forum with a somewhat random selection of MOCs.  It's just a matter of getting the word out so everyone knows what RFC in a topic title means.

[Big Cam]

I think its a good idea and a bad idea.

It'd be good for those wanting to learn, but MOC'ing is more personal than reviewing and  criticisms may be taken more to heart, plus if everyone starts moc'ing in the same style, who will be unique?

I think the way it is now works well, if someone wants advice they post a wip thread, if they don't, they save posting until their own creation is complete.

[Eskallon]

Big Cam, on 31 January 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

I think the way it is now works well, if someone wants advice they post a wip thread, if they don't, they save posting until their own creation is complete.

Yeah, I agree with Big Cam.

If people want advice on how to improve the MOC then they should put WIP in the title, elsewhere people should get the sense that when a topic has a creation in which is nicely photographed... is finished and un-open to improvement. However does it really matter if someone posts a little criticism in your topic, maybe listen to what they say or ignore it, after all we are all here to act and socialise online as a community and we are also here for inspiration and to find ways to improve our skills. So if we start posting short phrases which mean you don't want criticism then we could be missing out on a tip which could really improve quality of an MOC in the future.

Just my two cents.
Eskallon

[prateek]

I think what could be good is a big index with each building technique having its own specialist MOCer and its own tutorial topic.