48 replies to this topic

[Lord Arjay]

Ah yes thanks for explaining JimButcher everything is clear now. I must admit I was baffled as to the amount of actions apparently in play.
Oh and def no I assume that Sok was sane. Think of him as a good doctor who trys to cure you when there is nothing wrong and in the process kills you.
The name Insane Doctor is merely a title rather than the truth.

[Rick]

JimButcher, on May 28 2010, 05:44 PM, said:

It was completely random. We didn't assign the Marshal the Investigator role on purpose at all, it was by chance.

Unfortunate for the sane side this time, but there's a 1/21 chance indeed.

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What's that? There's more roles than that? Why, yes, there was. In this game, Ricecracker and I decided to try something new, to make things more interesting. Instead of giving all of the roles at the beginning of the game, we decided to (randomly) assign one new role to each Sane and Insane side for the first three nights (they could not use their action until the next night). There was one small issue (as you'll see), but I think it balanced things out nicely.

As you can see, we ran into a slight problem with Flitwick changing roles. After The Legonator died, the killer role had to have been transfered to another Insane (see, we do know what we're doing, Legonator). With only two Insanes left, we chose to replace Flitwick's roleblocking role with the killer one. When WhiteFang died, and Shadows was converted, we gave Shadows the roleblocking role. If we could go back, something I would do differently would be to have the roleblocking role disappear, and give Shadows the next one on the list (ironically enough, it would've been Watcher).

To be honest, I don't like the concept at all. First of, you have the problem you ran into with inheriting and conversions and it requires the host's judgment at that point, which is not ideal because you know how the game went until that point and you might be influenced. Ideally, you have planned for every possible situation, but the handing out of roles later made it hard to plan everything in advance. Second, I know conversions typically occur in games here on EB and the killing role is inherited on the scum side (the scum is like a group with a lot of night actions anyway, so all scum know the same), so I factor that in when analyzing the game, but handing out night actions later in the game, makes it hard to distill anything from people's behavior the days before they got their role. Now, it seemed like the protector and blocker roles were somehow inherited on the sane (town) side, whereas in fact they were new roles. Finally, I'm not an expert at all, but I think you have a lot of non-standard roles now, which makes it hard to grasp what exactly is going on. I know a non-sane (naive, paranoid, ...) investigator is common, but you added an insane doctor and a psych to it.

def, on May 28 2010, 06:07 PM, said:

Or has this question established me as naive?  

def, on May 28 2010, 06:26 PM, said:

Well, that's just devilish.  So, Sok was insane?

No, Sok was an 'insane' protector/doctor.

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I assumed that I got made investigator to make up for the air marshal being taken out the first night.  I guess I just made an ass out of me  

Yeah, that was my guess as well...

[Professor Flitwick]

Zapper Brick, on May 28 2010, 05:15 PM, said:

I knew proffesor flitwick was insane after I was killed.  

How could you suspect for your older brother!  

Edited by professor flitwick, 28 May 2010 - 05:49 PM.

[JimButcher]

def, on May 28 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

I assumed that I got made investigator to make up for the air marshal being taken out the first night.  I guess I just made an ass out of me  

No, the role would've been randomly assigned no matter what. We has list of roles to add each night, for the first three nights.

And Rick and Arjay are correct, Sok became the Sane Insane Investigator.

Rick, on May 28 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

To be honest, I don't like the concept at all. First of, you have the problem you ran into with inheriting and conversions and it requires the host's judgment at that point, which is not ideal because you know how the game went until that point and you might be influenced.

Well thanks for being honest, we do appreciate opinions on this.

What do you mean by conversions? No one was converted because of these roles, we had a separate list for each side. None of it had to do with our judgement or how we were influenced, either. Ricecracker literally threw pieces of paper with names of all of the Sanes without night actions into one pile, and all Insanes without actions in another, and picked out a name. Picking a name out of a hat is about as random as it gets.

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Ideally, you have planned for every possible situation, but the handing out of roles later made it hard to plan everything in advance.

Do you mean "you" as in the hosts, or as in the players? We DID have everything planned out in advance: we said that "this role" will be randomly assigned on "this night", and so forth. And no, we did not plan for every situation, that would be almost impossible. We received the night actions from players, and determined how everything played out. But what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

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Second, I know conversions typically occur in games here on EB and the killing role is inherited on the scum side (the scum is like a group with a lot of night actions anyway, so all scum know the same), so I factor that in when analyzing the game, but handing out night actions later in the game, makes it hard to distill anything from people's behavior the days before they got their role.

Like I said, none of these roles caused any conversions. Shadows was the only character converted, and that was because of an actual use of a conversion role. And while roles may have changed, alliances didn't. Can you give a specific example of a behavior change caused by a role change? Characters also find out new information all the time (between PMs), so one day they might be accusing a player, and the next, they won't. Doesn't mean they've been converted.

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Now, it seemed like the protector and blocker roles were somehow inherited on the sane (town) side, whereas in fact they were new roles.

What do you mean? When you were playing, you thought if a roleblocker/ protector died, the role was passed on?

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Finally, I'm not an expert at all, but I think you have a lot of non-standard roles now, which makes it hard to grasp what exactly is going on. I know a non-sane (naive, paranoid, ...) investigator is common, but you added an insane doctor and a psych to it.

Non-standard? Just because they've never been used on EB before doesn't mean they're non-standard. Sure, the psych pair isn't usually seen, but isn't it nice to see new things being tried out? Mafia games wouldn't be very fun here if they all were the same.

Compare one of the first mafia games here (Western, Witch Hunt, etc.). At the time, most players didn't really have a grasp on different roles and such, but now look at us. I think new changes like these are a good thing.

[Rick]

JimButcher, on May 28 2010, 07:06 PM, said:

What do you mean by conversions? No one was converted because of these roles, we had a separate list for each side.

No, no, town>scum conversions by the scum converter. I was only saying I factor those in when analyzing (changing) behavior, but I didn't consider night actions that were handed out in later nights.

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But what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

I don't question at all how you handled night actions, it's just that with the newly assigned night actions, you may find yourself in a situation where you have to decide during the game what role you have to pass on/give out new to the converted player (Shadows in this case). For example, it makes a huge difference if you let Shadows have blocker, scum converter, or 'watcher' (all equally likely according to your game plan). By having to decide on that, you place yourself in a situation that - while the game is underway - you have to make an important decision that is probably not written out. I'm not saying you wouldn't have had the problem without the newly assigned roles, but it would probably be less.

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Can you give a specific example of a behavior change caused by a role change? Characters also find out new information all the time (between PMs), so one day they might be accusing a player, and the next, they won't. Doesn't mean they've been converted.

I don't have a specific example, but normally once you get an idea of the night roles used on later nights (like the obvious scum block-kill), you might wonder what the blocker was up to on the other nights the killer was seen killing alone.

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What do you mean? When you were playing, you thought if a roleblocker/ protector died, the role was passed on?

Yeah, at the time they revealed themselves, it seemed like the most logical explanation for def being an investigator as of night 2, and Sok and Eskallon also only getting their roles on later nights.

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Non-standard? Just because they've never been used on EB before doesn't mean they're non-standard. Sure, the psych pair isn't usually seen, but isn't it nice to see new things being tried out? Mafia games wouldn't be very fun here if they all were the same.

True, it may be my mafia noobness. I was just wondering if you weren't 'overdoing' it, but I will leave this to the experts.


On another matter: I really enjoyed the deaths in the regular days. Very creative. My favorite was iamded locking himself in the refrigerator cart.  

[JimButcher]

Ah, I see what you mean now, Rick. It was difficult to gauge from a host's point of view. But I think it was worth a try.

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For example, it makes a huge difference if you let Shadows have blocker, scum converter, or 'watcher' (all equally likely according to your game plan).

That was the problem. We took away Flitwick's roleblocking action to give him the killer role, and then gave the roleblocker to Shadows once he had been converted. What we should've done was just trash the roleblocker role and gave him the Watcher role. They weren't equally likely, it's just that we decided to return the roleblocker role since the scum hasn't actually "lost" it.

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On another matter: I really enjoyed the deaths in the regular days. Very creative. My favorite was iamded locking himself in the refrigerator cart.

I wanted Drake to commit suicide by blowing his head off with a flare gun...  

[Sandy]

Rick, on May 28 2010, 09:27 PM, said:

I was just wondering if you weren't 'overdoing' it, but I will leave this to the experts.

If this is what you think, Rick, then maybe you shouldn't join my Hogwarts Mafia...

Of course you can, but it's going to be non-standard as hell, mind you.

[Eskallon]

A little confusing but still a great game. I like how you introduced some new roles to the game.

Sandy, on May 28 2010, 07:44 PM, said:

If this is what you think, Rick, then maybe you shouldn't join my Hogwarts Mafia...

Of course you can, but it's going to be non-standard as hell, mind you.

Can't wait for Hogwarts Mafia myself. Me being a HP fan and all.

[Eskallon]

A little confusing but still a great game. I like how you introduced some new roles to the game.

Sandy, on May 28 2010, 07:44 PM, said:

If this is what you think, Rick, then maybe you shouldn't join my Hogwarts Mafia...

Of course you can, but it's going to be non-standard as hell, mind you.

Can't wait for Hogwarts Mafia myself. Me being a HP fan and all.

[Professor Flitwick]

Eskallon, on May 28 2010, 08:56 PM, said:

Can't wait for Hogwarts Mafia myself. Me being a HP fan and all.

Get in line mate!   Looking forward to the next game!

[CallMePie]

Good game. I was surprised at the sane's accuracy early-on. They played a good game. And hey, I survived a whole day!   Fun first mafia.

[sok117]

I don't think I was an Insane Doctor unless Jim or Ricecraker wasn't suppose to tell me, my role info said I was just the doctor.  

Edited by sok117, 28 May 2010 - 10:14 PM.

[Ricecracker]

sok117, on May 28 2010, 05:13 PM, said:

I don't think I was an Insane Doctor unless Jim or Ricecraker wasn't suppose to tell me, my role info said I was just the doctor.  

You aren't supposed to know that, just like Def didn't know he was a naive investigator. Honestly, a bunch of the roles we added were jerk roles to make it confusing and more interesting. I know we definitely made it more confusing.

Originally, we were going to have a suicide triangle between the family go on, so that this would happen:

Pryce dies - Zane kills himself
Zane dies - Mike kills himself
Mike dies - Zane kills himself

We decided that including this would've been caused way too much death, as we already had one suicide circle, three killers and a paranoid gun owner.

[The Legonater]

Nice conclusion.

Yes, i was the orginal insane killer. On night 1 I killed Icarus Carter, and figured in the back of my mind that he was the investigater before I even sent the PM. I was right, and glad. On night 2, I killed Mik Cullingham- which was an idea I ahd before this crazy game even started- I figured that by killing him, Zane would be very broken up. Now this... this I'l never forget. That night I suggested we block Svelte, because he was acting suspicous (You remember this, right guys?) Someone else was blocked... and Callie died. i was a little ticked, but I got over it soon. On night four... I was dead! Killed by my list of motives, clothing, and CSI mind set.

About my clothes in this game, i tried to explain ealier, but I don't think any one noticed. unfortunatly, I deleetd my PM, so I have to go with what I remeber. Leo's story was that he hated 'stupid sunny' california- he had a terrible life there- and had no intention of going back. Once crashing, he prefferred the island over the city life, and adapted quickly. Furthermore, he became used to the island a lot quicker than any one else.

Ricecracker, on May 28 2010, 05:30 PM, said:

You aren't supposed to know that, just like Def didn't know he was a naive investigator. Honestly, a bunch of the roles we added were jerk roles to make it confusing and more interesting. I know we definitely made it more confusing.

Originally, we were going to have a suicide triangle between the family go on, so that this would happen:

Pryce dies - Zane kills himself
Zane dies - Mike kills himself
Mike dies - Zane kills himself

We decided that including this would've been caused way too much death, as we already had one suicide circle, three killers and a paranoid gun owner.

Ha, that confusing part sure adds to the whole Dystopia idea.

About the suicide triangle, that's actually what I figured was going on... or at least soemthing close to that. I was so close...

[Ricecracker]

The Legonater, on May 28 2010, 05:37 PM, said:

unfortunatly, I deleetd my PM, so I have to go with what I remeber.

This was the PM:

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In this game of wits, skill, and strategy, you will be playing Leo Nathan. You are a survivor of flight 518, but have adapted to the new and strange environment quicker than most of the other survivors. Your life on the island has actually been better than that of your life in California. You refuse to be rescued, and have joined up with like-minded survivors in order to stay.

Plus the part at the beginning, the role description and list of other insanes.

[sok117]

Okay good, just as long as everything was suppose to happen as it did.  

Sandy, on May 28 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

If this is what you think, Rick, then maybe you shouldn't join my Hogwarts Mafia...

I don't mean to spam the forum, but I was just having that idea today, something like deatheaters among the students and teachers, would make for a great game, set up after the seventh book.  I was thinking about contacting Dragonator about doing something like that, now I'm glad I don't have to have those responsibilities hanging over my shoulder.  Can't wait for it to start.

[iamded]

Ricecracker, on May 29 2010, 10:30 AM, said:

Originally, we were going to have a suicide triangle between the family go on, so that this would happen:

Pryce dies - Zane kills himself
Zane dies - Mike kills himself
Mike dies - Zane kills himself

We decided that including this would've been caused way too much death, as we already had one suicide circle, three killers and a paranoid gun owner.

That's not really a triangle, is it? Shouldn't it be 'Mike dies - Pryce kills himself'? That would make it a  full circle, instead of an overly distraught Zane and a "I-don't-even-care" Pryce.
~Peace

[CallMePie]

iamded, on May 28 2010, 07:04 PM, said:

That's not really a triangle, is it? Shouldn't it be 'Mike dies - Pryce kills himself'? That would make it a  full circle, instead of an overly distraught Zane and a "I-don't-even-care" Pryce.
~Peace

Pryce was insane.  

[JimButcher]

The Legonater, on May 28 2010, 05:40 PM, said:

On night 2, I killed Mik Cullingham- which was an idea I ahd before this crazy game even started- I figured that by killing him, Zane would be very broken up.

What? This isn't real life. I don't think Zapper Brick would actually be crying about his make-believe father in an online game.  

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About my clothes in this game, i tried to explain ealier, but I don't think any one noticed. unfortunatly, I deleetd my PM, so I have to go with what I remeber. Leo's story was that he hated 'stupid sunny' california- he had a terrible life there- and had no intention of going back. Once crashing, he prefferred the island over the city life, and adapted quickly. Furthermore, he became used to the island a lot quicker than any one else.

That was also the idea with Ellen and Richard - they both had unconventional clothing on, too. No one seemed to notice them, though...

iamded, on May 28 2010, 06:04 PM, said:

That's not really a triangle, is it? Shouldn't it be 'Mike dies - Pryce kills himself'? That would make it a  full circle, instead of an overly distraught Zane and a "I-don't-even-care" Pryce.
~Peace

Well, it was something along those lines. We were going to try to make it so that Pryce didn't even care, but we ended up trashing the idea anyway. Good thing, too, otherwise we might've had five or six deaths on our hands at the same time!  

And now, the night actions. I saved them on my forum notepad all this time:

Night 1:

- Inconspicuous/ Icarus Carter: Investigate Sandy/ Seth Diaz (unsuccessful)
- The Legonator/ Leo Nathans: Kill Inconspicuous/ Icarus Carter (successful)
- Bob TCM/ Brian Mason: Kill Badboytje88/ Bella Teller (successful)
- Svelte/ Cyril Jenssens: Kill Pedro/ Patricia Rockford (successful)
- Roncanator/ Ron Callister: Cure CallMePie/ Callie Peterson (unsuccessful)

Night 2:

- Svelte/ Cyril Jenssens: Kill CallMePie/ Callie Peterson (successful)
- Bob TCM/ Brian Mason: Kill Svelte/ Cyril Jenssens (successful)
- The Legonator/ Leo Nathans: Kill TinyPiesRUs/ Mike Collinham (successful)
- Roncanator/ Ron Callister: Cure sok117/ Samantha Wonderfield (unsuccessful)
- Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham: Block Shadows/ Shirley Dover (unsuccessful)
- def/ Deborah Fredricks: Investigate Sandy/ Seth Diaz (successful)

Night 3:

- WhiteFang/ Wyatt Fandorski: Convert Shadows/ Shirley Dover (successful)
- Bob TCM/ Brian Mason: Kill WhiteFang/ Wyatt Fnadorski (successful)
- Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham: Kill Rick/ Richard Ricardo (unsuccessful)
- Rick/ Richard Ricardo: Kill/ Self-defense Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham (unsuccessful)
- Roncanator/ Ron Callister: Protect Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham (successful)
- def/ Deborah Fredricks: Investigate Sok117/ Samantha Wonderfield (successful)
- Eskallon/ Ellen Allison: Block Shadows (unsuccessful)

Night 4:

- Bob TCM/ Brian Mason: Kill Zapper Brick/ Zane Collinham
- Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham: Kill Roncanator/ Ron Callister (successful)
- Shadows/ Shirley Dover: Block Roncanator/ Ron Callister (successful)
- Eskallon/ Ellen Allison: Block Sandy/ Seth Diaz (unsuccessful)
- Sok117/ Samantha Wonderfield: Protect Sandy/ Seth Diaz (unsuccessful, kill)
- Def/ Deborah Fredricks: Investigate Eskallon/ Ellen Allison (successful)

Night 5:

Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham: Kill def/ Deborah Fredricks (successful)
Shadows/ Shirley Dover: Block def/ Deborah Fredricks (successful)
def/ Deborah Fredricks: Investigate Shadows/ Shirley Dover (unsuccessful)
Eskallon/ Ellen Allison: Block Rick/ Richard Ricardo (unsuccessful)
Sok117/ Samantha Wonderfield: Protect Eskallon (unsuccessful, no kill)

Night 6:

Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham: Kill Eskallon/ Ellen Allison (unsuccessful)
Shadows/ Shirley Dover: Block Eskallon/ Ellen Allison (successful)
Eskallon/ Ellen Allison: Block Professor Flitwick/ Pryce Collinham (unsuccessful)
Sok117/ Samantha Wonderfield: Protect Eskallon/ Ellen Allison (successful)



As you can see, Shadows and Flitwick were getting cocky by gang-banging their victims.   Enjoy!

[The Legonater]

JimButcher, on May 28 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

What? This isn't real life. I don't think Zapper Brick would actually be crying about his make-believe father in an online game.

Yeah, I noticed- that's how I got killed. Note to self... Mafia games are not real life.

JimButcher, on May 28 2010, 09:40 PM, said:

That was also the idea with Ellen and Richard - they both had unconventional clothing on, too. No one seemed to notice them, though...

I noticed, but took it in my stride. Richard wasn't really that bad- he just had an open jacket and no shirt. Don't tell me you haven't seen people walking down toen like that . Ellen- to me- looked like she was trying to impersonate some kind of medican man or something. I didn't really think much else of it. To me Bella Teller looked the most suspicous with no pants on. then again, there was Cyril...

[Professor Flitwick]

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As you can see, Shadows and Flitwick were getting cocky by gang-banging their victims.

Don't judge me, love me!  

It was so if another Rick-fiasco happened, then Shadows could stop them.

[The Legonater]

So, yeah- I was the insane killer, the guy with the hatchet. Which is why I laughed tons when sok117 said this...

sok117, on May 6 2010, 06:13 PM, said:

I'll give you another chance, please don't stab us in the back!

[JimButcher]

It may be a little late, but now that the discussion has died down, I just wanted to say my last words for this game.

Thank you all so much for playing and supporting us, we couldn't have done it without you. The game, for the most part, turned out better than I could've ever hoped for. Again, I am sorry we couldn't give you a proper ending, but I hope that that's not the way you all remember Dystopia.

Also, I'd like to thank Ricecracker, who has been my close friend and partner for the duration of the planning and running of the game. I joined up with him on an impulse, and I've never regretted it since. We made a great team, and I hope we'll remain in contact even after this. Thanks, friend.  

[Big Cam]

Ricecracker, on May 27 2010, 09:18 PM, said:

I'll come out and take responsibility for the ending of the game. I'd like to apologize to all the players, everyone involved in the incident, and especially to JimButcher. You all deserved to see an end to this game, and due to my foolish actions and indiscretion, I caused the game to end unfairly and abruptly. As I still don't know all of what happened, I'd prefer if those involved did not discuss it, but it is up to your discretion as to whether or not you do. Those involved know who they are, so there is no need to ask if you are at fault. Again, I am sorry,

-Isaac

Hmm.

It's too bad a side couldn't ahve actually won.

I suppose it does go with the theme a little.

It was a fun game, thanks for putting it on.