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LDD Design Challenge #2


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#1 Superkalle

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 07:56 AM

OK LDD geeks, here's challenge #2

Well, so you know that there is a rotation tool in LDD. And you know that to create 45 or 90 degree angles you simply double click the markers of the rotation wheel (see image below). And you also know that to create 18 degree steps (18, 36, 54, 72, 90) you use the arrow keys.

OK, so far, so good. But what about creating exactly 22,5 degree intervalls (the intervall of the standard Lego "click"-hinges) or intervalls of 30 degrees (30, 60, 90). How do you do that? There is not direct input-method for it (that I know of), so I guess you need to use some other way by using placement of bricks or technic elements to create the desired angle. But maybe there are other ways? The end results shall in any case be a joint that has the desired angle.

NOTE: For this challenges I don't have a prepared "right" answer, so it's going to be interesting to see what you guys come up with.

Posted Image
Double click markers to rotate in 45 degree intervalls. But how a about
22,5 and 30 degree intervalls. That's today's challenge.

Edited by Superkalle, 07 May 2010 - 03:17 PM.

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#2 Aanchir

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 01:21 PM

View PostSuperkalle, on May 7 2010, 03:56 AM, said:

OK LDD geeks, here's challenge #2

Well, so you know that there is a rotation tool in LDD. And you know that to create 45 or 90 degree angles you simply double click the markers of the rotation wheel (see image below). And you also know that to create 18 degree steps (18, 36, 54, 72, 90) you use the arrow keys.

OK, so far, so good. But what about creating exactly 22,5 degree intervalls (the intervall of the standard Lego "click"-hinges) or intervalls of 30 degrees (30, 60, 90). How do you do that? There is not direct input-method for it (that I know of), so I guess you need to use some other way by using placement of bricks or technic elements to create the desired angle. But maybe there are other ways? The end results shall in any case be a joint that has the desired angle.

NOTE: For this challenges I don't have a prepared "right" answer, so it's going to be interesting to see what you guys come up with.

Posted Image
Double click markers to rotate in 45 degree intervalls. But how a about
22,5 and 30 degree intervalls. That's today's challenge.

This is one reason I like using click hinges in LDD. With click hinges, even without them actually clicking into place as they do in real life, they're still a lot easier to align than other hinges because you can visually see whether the teeth line up. This is most effective if you temporarily (or permanently, if it fits the MOC) have the two hinge pieces in different colors.

If you need to do the same with a different type of hinge, then the solution is to use a click hinge first to get one part of your MOC at the right angle. Then place one hinge piece on the tilted part and one on the regularly-aligned part of your MOC. When you connect the two, their angles will be maintained (I have not tested this with all types of hinges, but it's worked whenever I've needed to do this, which is not often).

A similar solution is to use Technic "angle connector" parts to align the tilted or angled part of the MOC, and then do the same (placing a hinge on both the angled and non-angled parts of the MOC, then connecting them to maintain the angle). But Technic angle connectors aren't as convenient as click-hinges because, since they're not hinges themselves, attaching non-angled parts to them is a hassle. With click hinges you connect the parts at regular alignment, then adjust the angle, so you don't have to worry about LDD's auto-align interfering.

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#3 Calabar

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 03:05 PM

ok, another LDD wishlist addon: a textfield there i can manually set the exact angle, including decimals!!  :tongue:
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#4 Superkalle

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 03:15 PM

View PostAanchir, on May 7 2010, 03:21 PM, said:

If you need to do the same with a different type of hinge, then the solution is to use a click hinge first
A similar solution is to use Technic "angle connector" parts
OK, shall I understand your proposals as:
For 22,5 degree intervalls, use visual approximation of the click-hinges
And
For 30 degree, to use a triangle based on a connecting technic pieces?

It would be super great if make a LXF-file and take some screenshots, or ever better to make the LXF avialable for download  :thumbup:

If anyone else has some more clever solutions, please...add 'em here!


View PostCalabar, on May 7 2010, 05:05 PM, said:

ok, another LDD wishlist addon: a textfield there i can manually set the exact angle, including decimals!!  :tongue:
Please, keep this thread to solution challange discussions (even if I agree that this whish was very related :classic:)

Edited by Superkalle, 07 May 2010 - 03:16 PM.

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#5 Calabar

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 03:21 PM

View PostSuperkalle, on May 7 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

Please, keep this thread to solution discussions to the challenge (even if I agree that this whish was very related :classic:)
Eheh yes, it was only a way to say that I've not found a simple way to obtain these angles except to use other hinges and try to put a brick on the rotated part, so that it assumes the right inclination.
At start I tried to obtain angles combining keys and "stud fixed" rotations, but obviously it is not possible. So using other hinges or use manual rotation stopped by a brick placed in the right position (but it is a bit difficult to calculate angles in this way) seem to be the only solutions.
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#6 Superkalle

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:04 PM

Well, I'm not going to close the challange yet for a while. I'm sure there are some clever solutions out there.
What I guess I was looking for are solutions where you would have to use other bricks as basis to create those desired angles, like Aanchir has indicated. Then those "angle-structures" can be added to the Template tab for easy access when you want to generate that special angle.
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#7 DLuders

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 01:53 AM

OK, below are two Right Triangles with 30-degree angles at the top of each triangle.  The Base-to-Height ratio of 1:2 ensures that 30- and 60-degree angles are created.  Other Right Triangles could be made with two equal legs, thus creating two 45-degree angles split in half to form 22.5-degree angles.  Hinges could be placed on top of the triangle jigs to ensure the proper angles.
[PHOTO DELETED -- Wrong configuration]

Edited by dluders, 08 May 2010 - 10:00 PM.


#8 Calabar

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 08:41 AM

dluders method seems to be very comfortable: easy to implement and easy to lay bricks on the "studded" side of the technic brick.
If angle are correct and it is possible to recreate all angles we need, I think it could be the best solution.

The only "issue" could be the calculation of right angles, calculation on the fly could be difficult to apply for everybody, but a simple table of distances (in technic holes) could solve this problem too.

Edited by Calabar, 08 May 2010 - 08:44 AM.

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#9 Superkalle

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 06:55 PM

@dluders: I'm not sure I follow you here. To create a 30/60 degree angle the opposing side and the hypothenuse should have the 1:2 ratio. To see what I mean, look here: http://www.freemathh...e-30-60-90.html
But how do you construct that with Lego or Technic Beams? Or have I overlooked something?

For 22.5 degree angles, I was thinking some of these elements could be used:
Posted Image
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#10 DLuders

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 09:58 PM

@ Superkalle:  Yes, you're right -- I didn't model the "legs" of the Right Triangle correctly to create a 30-degree angle.  You're correct in pointing out that the Base is 1/2 of the HYPOTENUSE.  Since the other "leg' of the triangle will be the "Square Root of 3" (1.732) times as big as the Base, it's impossible to create a 30-60-90 triangle out of Technic Beams or Liftarms and have all the pieces pin together.

I agree with Calabar -- there needs to be a simple textfield entry box in LDD whereby you can type in the EXACT angle you want.  It sure would be a lot simpler.

Following your hint, take a #3 Lego Technic Connector and lay it flat against the base plate.  The angle between the connector and the base plate is 22.5 degrees.  Here are the bend degrees for the various Technic Connectors:

32034 -- Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #2 - 180 degrees  Posted Image
32016 -- Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #3 - 157.5 degrees  Posted Image  
924 -- Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #4 - 135 degrees  Posted Image
32015 -- Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #5 - 112.5 degrees   Posted Image
32014 -- Technic, Axle and Pin Connector Angled #6 - 90 degrees   Posted Image

Edited by dluders, 08 May 2010 - 09:59 PM.


#11 Aanchir

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 03:35 PM

The easiest way to work in 30 or 60 degree angles is to use this piece, at least as far as Technic is concerned. However, it can also be done with other Technic parts, such as this one. It all depends on how you're trying to angle parts (vertically or horizontally) and what type of parts you're using (i.e. what type of connection points are most convenient).

Edited by Aanchir, 09 May 2010 - 09:18 PM.

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#12 Superkalle

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 06:06 PM

View PostAanchir, on May 9 2010, 05:35 PM, said:

The easiest way to work in 30 or 60 degree angles is to use this piece[/i], at least as far as Technic is concerned. However, it can also be done with other Technic parts, such as [url=http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=32125]this one. It all depends on how you're trying to angle parts (vertically or horizontally) and what type of parts you're using (i.e. what type of connection points are most convenient).
I think you nailed the last one Aanchir.

Well folks, I suppose that means we have all the angles I asked for in the challange. Now it's just a matter of preparing a reference LXF file with jigs for each angle so you can place a plate vertically or horisontally, and then move that brick to the desired position. Actually, those jigs could be placed under templates I guess.

PS: If you have a LDD Design Challange, PM me and we can discuss it. Or if you want to post it directly. If so, just up the # one step.
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#13 Silcantar

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 05:55 AM

You can create 60 degree angles (which are effectively the same as 30 degree angles) by making an equilateral triangle with Technic bricks, too.  It may not be as convenient as the the aforementioned methods in some cases, but there are likely situations in which it would be useful.
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