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Red Moon Confirmation & Discussion thread


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#326 Hinckley

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 03:44 AM

Walter, I think I can tell you more about that at the end of the game. So far, there's not a whole lot of experience with mystery games here on EB and sometimes I feel like I don't know exactly the best way to host one and likewise that the players aren't sure what's expected of them...

That being said, I would like to ask the remaining players what they think of the game, start an honest discussion about what can be improved in the future and what they need to end the game and how they would like to proceed. The rest of the game will have to appear without brick as my employer is sending me to Malaysia for four months and I am just insane trying to get caught up before I leave, in exactly three weeks.

So, let's have it. Please be as honest as you can be and constructive to the point where mystery games become a fun and functional part of our Games forum. :sweet:

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#327 The Legonater

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:05 AM

Wow. It's too bad that this might not get finished, and that you'll be gone for four months. Although I'm not a player, I have to say- watching this has been great.

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#328 Shadows

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:43 AM

View PostHinckley, on 01 July 2010 - 03:44 AM, said:

So, let's have it. Please be as honest as you can be and constructive to the point where mystery games become a fun and functional part of our Games forum. :sweet:
This is an excellent idea and a situation that Draggy and I have been pondering for quite a while.

The mystery format is difficult. On the one hand, it's very easy to turn it into a story where the players have little control and mostly go along for the ride. That tends to be somewhat unrewarding as a mystery and feels more like play acting. It's fun, but not really the intent. On the other hand, it's much harder to present a real life situation where people can do what they want without limitations. While that sounds ideal, it would be impossible to host and in most cases would result in players sitting around doing lots of things that aren't going to help them solve the mystery, destroying evidence, killing each other and generally not advancing the story.

The trick is finding just the right mix. It's a situation that video game creators have been faced with for decades, starting with some of the earliest adventure games. There have always been limitations, places you can't go, things you can't do, mostly because the game didn't understand it. In a forum game, the host clearly understands what you want, but can't just let you do everything. In real life, you could push someone off a cliff, but there would be consequences. In a game, the host could allow it, but then how would they emulate reality, wait to see how the other players react? where do you draw the line?

With all of that said, a mystery is the one kind of game experience I don't claim to understand how to host. I could create either the story or completely open kind easily, but neither would qualify as a proper mystery to me. The former would feel too controlled, like riding on rails, the other would be completely out of control and never end.

I'm not sure it's really possible to create a perfectly balanced one, to be honest.

I'll be interested to see what all of you think.

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#329 Hinckley

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 04:53 AM

View PostThe Legonater, on 01 July 2010 - 04:05 AM, said:

Wow. It's too bad that this might not get finished, and that you'll be gone for four months. Although I'm not a player, I have to say- watching this has been great.
No no. It will end. Not with pictures, but the story will conclude.

Thanks Shadows! All great points. I'll respond to more after more people have shared their thoughts.

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#330 Dragonator

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:02 AM

I'm about to jump on a plane, so I'll share my thoughts later. Will be interesting to see what you all have to say. :classic:


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#331 JimButcher

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:09 PM

You asked for remaining players to provide feedback, but I'd like to say a few words to (mostly not directed at this particular game).

I think creating a mystery game would be incredibly hard. To do it, the host must be able to have everything planned out before the game even starts. Where all of the clues are, how everything interacts in the game, the reaction to choices of the players... nothing can be left to procrastination. Because if it is, IMO, the host won't know what to do because their choice affects other parts of the game as well, and they might not know if that choice can screw it all up.

Also, I think hosts need to have a set time frame. It's difficult to determine if by the time it's your turn to host (which can sometimes takes over a full year), but hosting a Mystery game takes a lot of time and effort. If a host gets a spot on the list, they should get to work on the final ideas, characters, and sets right away so that everything is ready way before it's their turn. It's probably better to have everything ready and wait patiently for a few months than to wait and then rush the final stages of the game when it is your turn (I made this mistake in Dystopia Mafia).

Finally, the host needs to pick out players that he/ she knows are going to be active participants. It's good to include new players, but I think before any are included, their background on EB should be checked. Do they post well, and often? Are they mature? Have they stuck with other long-term games/ activities?

Those are my thoughts on this difficult category of forum games for now. I'll be interested in seeing everyone else's opinions.  :classic:


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#332 The Crazy One

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:16 AM

I have to agree with Shadows. It is all about getting the balance right.

The point about the video games was excellent. Expanding on that, COD is increadably linear, and there is no freedom, whereas a game like Dawn Of War is brilliant because you choose your own course in the story, with alternate endings, but it doesn't allow too much freedom so that the story gets out of hand.
That is what I believe a good Mystery game would comprise of, freedom to manipulate the story, but the game leaders ever watchful eye can stop the out if hand movements and changes in the story, like a random decision to kill someone.

Sorry I just basically expanded Shadow's point, but that is my opinion aswell.

Edited by The crazy one, 06 July 2010 - 12:17 AM.


#333 Hinckley

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:04 AM

So, this is how the game will end:

I will go through each chapter and compile the clues that were found...and consequently completely ignored.

I will start a new thread summarizing the events and clues found in each chapter.

Then I will PM the remaining players asking them a series of questions.

When I get the answers, I will orchestrate an ending to the story.

When I return to the States in Novemeber I will construct and photograph the ending and post it.

In the meantime, we can analyze the entire thing and figure out where it went wrong, besides-of course-the fact that the host kept having to leave the state or country or what have you. But, hopefully we can all look at the process of the game and figure out how to play and run Mystery Games in the future. They are certainly fun but a lot of hard work on everyone's part. Business trips cannot get in the way of them if they are to be run correctly.

So...there we have it. There will be a complete ending to this game one way or another. :sweet:

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#334 JimButcher

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:52 AM

I already shared my thoughts on Mystery games before, but I definitely think the main reason the game "failed" towards the end was because you, Hinckley, were too busy and could not post chapters soon enough. I'm not blaming you, we all have more important things than online forum games, but when there's no new chapters for months the players start to lose interest - and perhaps, not try as hard? As far as I could tell the game was set to run very smoothly from the beginning, it's just that the lack of time on your end could not keep up with the game.

That's too bad, too. I did have fun while I was in the game, and if you ever have enough time to host again, I'd look forward to it.  :thumbup:


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#335 fallentomato

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:24 AM

View PostHinckley, on 14 August 2010 - 05:04 AM, said:

So, this is how the game will end... Thoughts?
That all sounds good to me. I was wondering just last night if this game would ever finish.
I think there was a lot of energy in the first few chapters, but as the time between chapters increased and the number of players decreased, there was more burden placed on the remaining players to solve the mysteries. It was difficult to keep track of everything that had happened and to know what was relevant, I was keeping a word document with what I thought were important developments, but even then I found myself going back and wading through the old chapters a lot. Maybe starting off each chapter with a recap of the major story events would be useful (though obviously more work for the DM).
I think that another thing that happened was, because so many of the mysteries were puzzles that had to be solved before the team could progress, people tended to fixate on the individual puzzles and loose sight of the overarching mystery. So I think people got complacent and let the game be more of an on-rails experience, rather than splitting up and figuring things out on their own more. I guess that's a pretty tough thing to balance though. One specific example of this is the overview pictures for each room. In addition to the picture Hinckley would often give a descriptive paragraph that highlighted certain features of the picture. People tended to focus on the features that got mentioned rather than looking closely at the picture for suspicious stuff. Maybe if the scenes were presented just as pictures there'd be more of a focus on looking for clues, rather than just solving the puzzle of the moment. It's a thought.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the puzzles and all the funny comments from the "voice in the sky" and generally was having a great time plying the game. I'm just trying to come up with some suggestions about how the next mystery game could be improved that are more than just "the DM should not have a busy life."
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#336 iamded

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:07 AM

That sounds good. I have a hard time keeping track of... well, everything, so perhaps Mystery games aren't my thing...
In saying that, I did have a lot of fun in this. I think fallentomato pretty much summed everything up. In future I'll stick to playing mafia games, and spectating mystery games. :wink:
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#337 Walter Kovacs

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 01:15 AM

Well, at least we will get an ending, even if it wasn't the one everyone expected.  It really sucks that Hinckley doesn't have the time to give this game a proper ending. At the very least, all the players (and those avid observers like me  :grin: ) get to see how far off their guesses are.  

As a complete aside, this has to be the best line of the game, bar none:

View PostSiegfried, on 22 April 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

We asked him (Zack) if he objected but he said nothing. Think of the positive side; the funeral should be cheaper now.

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#338 The Crazy One

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 10:25 AM

Well, to be honest, I completely lost my way in this mystery game towards the end. I just kept on getting behind and thus became a useless member of the game. I'm rather surprised that I wasn't killed earlier. Anyway, from what parts of the game I was properly engaged in, I have to say I have had lots of fun, but again, I lost track due to being busy or late chapters. ( Not your fault Hinckly ).

#339 robuko

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 12:41 PM

View PostHinckley, on 14 August 2010 - 05:04 AM, said:

So, this is how the game will end:

Thoughts?

It's great that we will see an end to the game.  As a spectator, I would love to see the clues summarised by Hinckley, and the players given a chance to solve the mystery before the no doubt gruesome end.  I am not really familiar with this type of game, but I thought that the supernatural dimension (which I loved) blurs the ground a lot between reality and unreality, which makes it difficult for the players to apply logic to finding clues and problem solving.  I thought it was quite interesting that it was not really possible to interrogate the NPCs for clues, as I would have expected that the way the players ask questions could influence the outcome.

Thanks very much for hosting, Hinckley, it has been a wonderful game to follow, the setting is very imaginative and the presentation is excellent.

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#340 hawkyboy4

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:22 PM

View Postrobuko, on 16 August 2010 - 12:41 PM, said:

It's great that we will see an end to the game. As a spectator, I would love to see the clues summarised by Hinckley, and the players given a chance to solve the mystery before the no doubt gruesome end. I am not really familiar with this type of game, but I thought that the supernatural dimension (which I loved) blurs the ground a lot between reality and unreality, which makes it difficult for the players to apply logic to finding clues and problem solving. I thought it was quite interesting that it was not really possible to interrogate the NPCs for clues, as I would have expected that the way the players ask questions could influence the outcome.

Thanks very much for hosting, Hinckley, it has been a wonderful game to follow, the setting is very imaginative and the presentation is excellent.

Robuko

I must agree here, I enjoyed following the events of the game very much, and it was sad that Hinkley did not have the time to finish the story. This has prompted me to create my own "interactive" story, which people will be able to have input as to what occurs throughout the story. It will hopefully premiere here on Eurobricks this Sunday.
Again, it was great following the mystery, and I think that when it was updated, Hinkey did a great job.




#341 Professor Flitwick

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:23 PM

View Posthawkyboy4, on 01 December 2010 - 02:22 PM, said:

I must agree here, I enjoyed following the events of the game very much, and it was sad that Hinkley did not have the time to finish the story. This has prompted me to create my own "interactive" story, which people will be able to have input as to what occurs throughout the story. It will hopefully premiere here on Eurobricks this Sunday.
Again, it was great following the mystery, and I think that when it was updated, Hinkey did a great job.

Firstly, your bumping quite an old topic here.

Secondly, if you plan on hosting a game, then check with our games moderator, Dragonator. PM him with your idea, and he'll give you some advice, and (providing it is of an expectable standard) put you on the waiting list. I'm not sure if it will happen right away, though; as Draggy needs to be sure you can be trusted, and you are a relatively 'unknown' member; you have been here over a year, but you've only made 87 posts, so it would be hard to assess your level of commitment to your game.

Edited by Professor Flitwick, 01 December 2010 - 09:02 PM.

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#342 Walter Kovacs

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 06:32 PM

Since this topic has been bumped.  

Hinckley never followed through with his plan to wrap Red Moon up.  And he has also returned to the States (I think I saw  that in the Community forum).  Is it possible that Red Moon can be resurrected and given a proper ending?  Or is it dead at this point, and we should just move on?  

I certainly would like to see the former, but I wonder if the original players are even interested after all this time.
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#343 iamded

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 04:58 AM

View PostProfessor Flitwick, on 01 December 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

Secondly, if you plan on hosting a game, then check with our games moderator, Dragonator. PM him with your idea, and he'll give you some advice, and (providing it is of an expectable standard) put you on the waiting list. I'm not sure if it will happen right away, though; as Draggy needs to be sure you can be trusted, and you are a relatively 'unknown' member; you have been here over a year, but you've only made 87 posts, so it would be hard to assess your level of commitment to your game.
From the sounds if it, this seems to be less of a forum game and more of an interactive story, much like Batbrick's "Interactive Apocalypse". He held that in the Other Themes forum, as it was more a series of MOCs with a great story weaving them, and Post-Apoc MOCs go in 'Other Themes'. So the theme of your interactive story, hawkyboy4, will determine which forum it goes in.

I would agree with Flitwick and suggest PM'ing Dragonator about this first though, as he can determine the level of interactivity you're planning and whether it fits into Batbrick's poll style interactivity, or whether it's classed as a game and requires threads of discussion etc.

On topic, I still would love to hear an ending to Red Moon, but I understand how busy real life can be.


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#344 hawkyboy4

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 09:17 AM

View PostProfessor Flitwick, on 01 December 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

Firstly, your bumping quite an old topic here.

Secondly, if you plan on hosting a game, then check with our games moderator, Dragonator. PM him with your idea, and he'll give you some advice, and (providing it is of an expectable standard) put you on the waiting list. I'm not sure if it will happen right away, though; as Draggy needs to be sure you can be trusted, and you are a relatively 'unknown' member; you have been here over a year, but you've only made 87 posts, so it would be hard to assess your level of commitment to your game.

Sorry, I didn't mean to bump it, I had forgotten and wanted to say that I enjoyed reading the story.
I also don't plan to create a mafia game, just a story where people can say who they like and dont like. The idea really is for something bigger I have in the works, so you could call it a survey-ey thing. It's like a series of MOC's, except they have a stroyline for people to follow.

Edited by hawkyboy4, 03 December 2010 - 09:20 AM.




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