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[Dreamweb]

I know this is a popular topic causing much confusion, but haven't seen a thread about it here. Do you consider both bluecoats and redcoats British, or are bluecoats French or is it something completely different?

My first opinion was that they are both British, but redcoats are those who serve close to Admiral Woodhouse and hence the special colour and slightly different flags.

However, recently I tend to think that bluecoats may be French, which would bring more diversity to the Pirate world.

I've also seen other options, like considering both of them the same nation, but calling one of them ground troops or port crews, with the other being navy. It would be something like the diversity of uniforms on "Star Trek" - different for ships, different for bases. But this would require remodelling the original Lego sets - for instance, if you consider the reds to be ship crew, you'll have to change the crew and flag of the Caribbean Clipper, as well as replace the crew and flags of the Imperial Trading post with blue ones and so on.

Tell me what you think, which option you agree with or do you have any other ideas?

I apologise if this has been discussed in some other thread, but I've looked over all the titles and haven't noticed anything like it.

[Akkhraziel]

Great topic, and to my knowldege it hasn't been discussed here.

Hmmm, I think (in the event that I should get imperial vessels) that I'd end up treating it one of two ways:

Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume (then again, as I don't necessarily care for the later pirate stuff, I could avoid this problem by not buying them.)

Methodology number two: Given as the pirates got all the big ships anyway, I might be inclined to treat them as French (early blue), British (red) and spanish (green/late blue) in an alliance which was built to curtail the operations of larger than life pirates.Historically accurate...not so much. Fun, yes.

Methodology three: Yes, I know I only said I was going to use two...given the fluer motif on the early imperial soldiers stuff, as well as the almos napoleonic hats, I'd say that thinking they are french is not much of a stretch at all.

Me, I'm likely to do any or non of the above...


Akkh

[Mister Phes]

Akkhraziel, on Jul 3 2005, 10:32 AM, said:

Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume (then again, as I don't necessarily care for the later pirate stuff, I could avoid this problem by not buying them.)

Methadology 1 is the one I've been using.

Here are the uniforms:

British Naval






French






I have seen the custom French mini-figure uniforms somewhere, and they incorporate the red elements into the design making them distinctly different. This includes the design template and the actual finished result. So as soon as I remember where I've seen them I'll post images.

Another reason why I use Methadology 1 is because I live in the hope that one day LEGO will actually release a French sub-theme for Pirates with different uniforms. I shall go back to dreaming now...

[Mister Phes]

I couldn't find what I was referring to, but I've found some interesting French alternative uniforms none the less.

From Port Brique

[Dreamweb]

Yes, methodology number one seems very appealing to me.

Mister_phes, could you give some links to where you've found these pictures (I mean those of real uniforms)? I'd like to broaden my historical knowlegde about those naval forces we are discussing, perhaps you know some good websites too?

Yes, the armada should definitely be considered Spanish, so the question remains if there are three or two naval powers in the Pirate theme (or should I say one and a half, because of the very few Spanish sets released).

But they really don't have to be in an alliance :)

Quote

I have seen the custom French mini-figure uniforms somewhere, and they incorporate the red elements into the design making them distinctly different.

Yes, I think even adding red sleeves and red epaulettes would do the trick, leaving yellow epaulettes for the Britons.

Quote

I live in the hope that one day LEGO will actually release a French sub-theme for Pirates with different uniforms.

Yes, that would be nice indeed. Plus the continuation of the Spanish subtheme of course.

Other ideas I've considered are: mixing bluecoats with redcoats freely as they belong to the same naval force (but what about the flags then?) or dividing them according to ranks, for instance: red coats for officers, blue coats for lower ranks.

[Mister Phes]

Dreamweb, on Jul 3 2005, 05:57 PM, said:

Mister_phes, could you give some links to where you've found these pictures (I mean those of real uniforms)? I'd like to broaden my historical knowlegde about those naval forces we are discussing, perhaps you know some good websites too?

You'll be finding links to plenty of information at The Costumes Manifesto...

[Captain Roger]

both are british, red guys are the marines, and blue guys are the naval army

[Mister Phes]

There could be almost be a poll...

a) Those who think the blue coats are French and just the red are British
b) Both blue and red coats are British
c) Completely different view beyond all comprehension.

[snefroe]

Akkhraziel, on Jul 3 2005, 12:32 AM, said:

Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume

red is marine exp. unit (remember the nickname "lobster"?)
blue... hm... isn't that limited to officers and lower ranker staff (midshipman,...) in brittish navy?

there is "a the spanish influence" because tlc mixed two historical eras in one theme. the spanish soldiers refer to the 15-16th century; the brittish troops refer to 18-19th century.

[Mister Phes]

The British were there in the 1600's though...

They colonised Barbados in the late 1620's... Siezed Jamaica from the Spanish in 1655... They colonised Antigua in 1667... British Virgin Islands annexed in 1672... The 17th century was a big year for the British in the Caribbean.

By the way, I'm conquistador now! The English are my foes! They ceased so many colonies from Spain. I want REVENGE!!! :^D

[Dreamweb]

So, assuming we have The British, the Spaniards and perhaps the French in the Pirate line, what other nationalities do you think they could introduce had the theme been reintroduced? Or what other nationalities would you create (have you created) on your own, perhaps you have any ideas how they should look like (using existing minifig parts)?

[snefroe]

obviously the Dutch! the VOC (Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie) is legendary for it's international trade. the company even had her own army, and probably was the most powerful entity in Europe in the 17th century (the dutch call this the Golden Age)! so i can see a set with a huge transport ship accompanied by a smaller military vessel,...

[Mister Phes]

As far as I'm concerned there's only British and Spanish so that leaves room for the French, Dutch and Portuguese.

There could also be non European sub-themes like the rastafarians or the Mayans, Incas, Aztecs and Olmecs (which the lovely Spanish so kindly wiped out). But I'd say the Indigo Islanders were Olmecs since they seem a bit out of place and little is known about them.


We would almost create an entirely new thread for this discussion... Providing there are enough interested contenders... But I see potential for this discussion to go away beyond the topic of this thread. Well I hope anyway...

[Akkhraziel]

It would even be theoretically possible to add in Americans, who were fighting pirates in the late 1700/early 1800's. I forget the name of that one vessel off the coast of Florida...


Akkh

[Mister Phes]

I was contemplating adding the Americans... But decided not to. It would just conflict too much with Western |-D