43 replies to this topic

[Tanotrooper]

Hi everyone,

I can still remember a time when Clone troopers were white and black soldiers, inextuingishable from others. Yellow, Red, Blue, Green stripes on the armor indicated the commander, captain, lieutenant or sergeant rank. Of course clone troopers were created to be the predecessors of the storm troopers, and had to look very similar.

Next came the ARC troopers. Wearing specialised armour as elite troops was exceptable and the colour-rank was still there such as Fordo wearing red instead of standard blue stripes.

Then came the clone commandos. These were the first clones that didn't sound like the others, and it was decided that these would have painted armour instead of white, to indicate their personality. Again, these were elite troops, the main army still was white and black.

Then it began... Episode III. We saw pictures of the new clone helmet, with the black and white armour. Next we saw orange, green, camouflage, blue, red, ... Colours were no longer used to indicate ranks, but to make complete legions, battalions, etc.

In episode III, I think the only time I saw a white clone was on a Venator, wich got hit by a cannon from Grievous' flagship.

Clones used these markings to identify themselves as a certain unit, while commanders wore their own. The colour per unit started being used somewhere in the Clone Wars, only appearing with Phase II clones.

In the clone wars animated series, both phase I and phase II clones were seen wearing the regular black and white armour.

Now, the new  the Clone Wars series, we see Phase I clone troopers, all with their different markings, wich even change from clone to clone in the same squad... I've seen the first 3 episodes so far and I have rarely (or even not, sometimes it goes quick) seen any white and black troopers. The hair cuts are another thing that bother me, but I can live with that as they are under the helmets...



I am annoyed by the fact that these facts don't add up and the regular trooper doesn't even seem to appear anymore. Then they suddenly changed back to black and white for the Empire?

Of course, this is seen from a marketing point of view, to get as much profit out of clone troopers figures and all of the merchandise, also LEGO. Hasbro can keep on rehashing almost made up battlions or troops, and they will still sell.

What do we end up with? We can't build a decent army, because the coloured ones only appear in small numbers and are all differently coloured, while the white troops, wich we can build an army with, don't seem to appear anymore...


Add to the annoyance or prove me wrong by posting in this thread  

TT

[ADHO15]

That's quite a rant, Tanotrooper.  

I like the episodes like Hidden Enemy and Rookies that show the variety between clones. I know they are clones and they should all be the same, but of course they will adopt different personalities and interests as they grow.

I also like the different hairstyles and armour because, again, it shows variation.

When you were talking about LEGO, there aren't many special troops produced these days. All the CW clones are plain B&W, except for the three commanders, but you can just pretend they're a Lieutenant, Captain and Commander from their red, blue and... orange colours.  

I have no issue with the specialised armour or difference between clones. In fact, I think it's a really good aspect that was included in the show and I hope to see it continue. It would just get boring if they were all the same. You might as well have two BD armies.

[KimT]

Is it only in the TV series and movies that you're annoyed by this?
I am annoyed that getting enough regular Clone Troopers with the LEGO sets is getting more and more difficult.
In the beginning we got plenty of stormies, but now we get so many different versions of Clone Troopers that it's hard to build up a decent army of them.
Maybe that's why I am primarily an OT fan
Since I've opened the gate between LEGO and Movies, I'll move this to the Star Wars forum.
Great topic by the way

[The Who]

KimT, on Mar 6 2009, 12:13 AM, said:

I am annoyed that getting enough regular Clone Troopers with the LEGO sets is getting more and more difficult.
In the beginning we got plenty of stormies, but now we get so many different versions of Clone Troopers that it's hard to build up a decent army of them.

That is exactly the thing. With the way I display my sets, especially the Clone Wars sets, it's like you can only put clones in groups of four or five at a time, unless you have tons of money to spend on battlepacks or bricklink.

[KinGanon]

booger540, on Mar 5 2009, 08:24 PM, said:

That is exactly the thing. With the way I display my sets, especially the Clone Wars sets, it's like you can only put clones in groups of four or five at a time, unless you have tons of money to spend on battlepacks or bricklink.

Huh? The only different clones are the Commanders, gunner and pilot. I think the CW sets shouldn't be too hard to display since there is a battlepack with 3 plain clones in it, which is easier to amass than the whole rainbow of clones in the Ep. III battlepack.

[Kaitan]

Tanotrooper, on Mar 5 2009, 08:39 PM, said:

Then they suddenly changed back to black and white for the Empire?

It's pretty well understood that by the time of ANH the Empire is recuiting regular troops from various planets into its ranks, so I would assume not many clones survive to see that point in time. The Empire would probably want to crush any 'extra' individuality out of these 'non clone' troops in order to create an effective military force, much the same way armies do today. Thus the return to the plain white and black.
When the forces are all clones,  the empire/republic could afford to let them express some degree of individuality because they are all grown together, trained together and have similar personalities, or,  as ADHO15 said, they might as well be droids otherwise.

Pure conjecture on my part but it fits the facts :)

Kaitan

[Tanotrooper]

KimT, on Mar 6 2009, 12:13 AM, said:

Is it only in the TV series and movies that you're annoyed by this?
I am annoyed that getting enough regular Clone Troopers with the LEGO sets is getting more and more difficult.
In the beginning we got plenty of stormies, but now we get so many different versions of Clone Troopers that it's hard to build up a decent army of them.
Maybe that's why I am primarily an OT fan
Since I've opened the gate between LEGO and Movies, I'll move this to the Star Wars forum.
Great topic by the way

Well yes, this is the point that it's so hard to build up a decent army because they're all different (with LEGO mainly episode III clones)

I'm mostly annoyed that the episode II clones, wich were always shown in white armour throughout the clone wars comics etc. suddenly have personal markings on them etc.

This doesn't add up:

-Clone wars cartoons: Only the ARC troopers and Cody, Fordo are shown with such markings. (of course pilots and scuba clones are differently coloured as a class.) The series go straight to the beginning of episode III, and we only see plain clone troopers. (Phase I and II)

-The clone wars series (now) : Phase I clones have markings, haven't seen plain so far.


My annoyance is that I can't help but feel this is purely commercial, and doesn't benefit the Star Wars universe or the fans. (they can keep on inventing "special" units)

TT

BTW thank KimT for putting it in the lego star wars forum  

[CloneMe]

I dont see your point. Yes I love regular white clones in huge numbers but in episode 3 their armour usually tends to depend on the planet and as most know their legion. Sometimes different designs to show higher ranking clones. I love the variety of colors its just to hard to get an army of just one.

[Corvus]

I like the clones like this. The only thing that bothers me is the hair...

The clones were cloned from a Mandalorian, right? Especially the Commandos- they've been trained by Mandalorian instructors, who taught them the culture, which includes an obsessive sense of self and community. The commandos, in turn, trickled this down the ranks to the normal troopers.

Besides that, sometime during the CW the system was changed from rank markings to markings denoting what legion, battalion, or specialized squad the clones came from. For example, Cody's troops have orange markings like he does, and so on. What I don't get in the CW T.V. system, however, is how only a few of them have markings.... take a look at Innocents of Ryloth, for example. There are two clones with Cody's markings, and everyone else is simply white.

But as for the Lego version, I like it. Sure, having the Ep. III clones red, green, and yellow is annoying, but there aren't many specialised troopers in the new CW figs, other than Rex and Cody.

So yes, I like customization in my clones.

As a side note, the Stormtroopers are black and white because to the clones went from being a valuable asset to expendable grunts, as they started mass-producing clones who achieved maturity in a year, rather than ten, so they were cheaper. The downside of this was that they developed no sense of self, and were really just machines.

[JimButcher]

While all of what you say is true, Tanotrooper, I don't like to think of it that way. In Episode II: AotC, all of the colors were used to determine rank.

White, Private
Green, Sergent
Blue, Lieutenant
Red, Captain
Yellow, Commander

Now, during the Clone Wars (the T.V. show, for example), I think the army was somewhere in between the process of changing from Phase I to Phase II. In the Clone Wars, you see the old ranks (Cody having yellow armor, some white troops), but you also see lots of different-colored armor indicating specialization among the troops. For example, in Clone Wars episodes "Blue Shadow Virus" and "Mystery of A Thousand Moons", the orange armor indicated that those clones were experts of bombs.

During the Empire, I'm sure that Stormtroopers had ranks, too, it just wasn't shown by painting their armor. You also see specialized troops in the Original Trilogy films, like Snowtroopers, Scout troopers, and Death Star gunners.

In terms of Lego, though, I think that the different colorings on clones don't make much of a difference when building an army- since there are different armor colors in the official media, then that should just make your army more realistic.

If you're complaining about Phase I and II clone troopers, though, that's another issue. However, TLG is just being accurate in going from Phase I (during ATOC's release) to Phase II (During ROTS's release), and back to Phase I (for CW).

[The Who]

KinGanon, on Mar 5 2009, 11:55 PM, said:

Huh? The only different clones are the Commanders, gunner and pilot. I think the CW sets shouldn't be too hard to display since there is a battlepack with 3 plain clones in it, which is easier to amass than the whole rainbow of clones in the Ep. III battlepack.

There's more than that.
Like:
1.-Standard white/black
2.-Pilot
3.-Gunner
4.-Cody's troops, orange markings, no armor
5.-Standard, black armor
6.-Standard, grey armor
7.-Rex's troops (ARC), blue markings, no armor
8.-Fox's troops (Snipers), red marking, no armor
9.-Senate Commandos
etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like some variety. It just makes it hard to build a decent army.

[samxsteal]

ADHO15, on Mar 5 2009, 01:01 PM, said:

That's quite a rant, Tanotrooper.  

I like the episodes like Hidden Enemy and Rookies that show the variety between clones. I know they are clones and they should all be the same, but of course they will adopt different personalities and interests as they grow.

I also like the different hairstyles and armour because, again, it shows variation.

When you were talking about LEGO, there aren't many special troops produced these days. All the CW clones are plain B&W, except for the three commanders, but you can just pretend they're a Lieutenant, Captain and Commander from their red, blue and... orange colours.  

I have no issue with the specialised armour or difference between clones. In fact, I think it's a really good aspect that was included in the show and I hope to see it continue. It would just get boring if they were all the same. You might as well have two BD armies.

Well  if you think of is as if JAngo is a file or a peice of data and when you replicate it over and over and over again peices of it are earased or change this is like the DNA of the clones which actually happens with real clones you loose information in the duplicating process. so when they develop the have whole in which there bodies fill in which creates different Characteristics like attitude changes personalities and so on and so forth. Its like identical twins Visually similar yet totally different. Same goes for the clones. Think of them more as offspring of Jango then clones.

Edited by samxsteal, 06 March 2009 - 06:09 AM.

[Sinner]

Mr. Mandalorian, on Mar 6 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

As a side note, the Stormtroopers are black and white because to the clones went from being a valuable asset to expendable grunts, as they started mass-producing clones who achieved maturity in a year, rather than ten, so they were cheaper. The downside of this was that they developed no sense of self, and were really just machines.

Are you sure about this? I've heard the line was there were some Stormtroopers clones, but the majority weren't. Wookieepedia largely supports this, but Wookieepedia changes on a near daily basis as it tries to blend every Star Wars story into a believable history...

[Brickthing]

I personally like the variety of clones, because it makes them more individual than the run-of-the-mill Battle Droids. Also, in LEGO army building it makes armies look more interesting, and more entertaining to build up than just ordering 100 of the same minifig over BL.

My main complaint with the clones is that the new CW clones have light-coloured flesh coloured heads. I know it's not something I should get worked up over, but LEGO has released the darker skin colour in Indiana Jones minifigs, so it's disappointing to see that the clones aren't as accurately portrayed as they could've been.  

[Future74]

Good question.
Lego just folows the films/series, which it should. Wether it's the colour as specialized troops or to mark rank. Although I would prefer a system like the imperial officer/General Veers/Grand Moff Tarkin has on the chest or for that matter on the shoulders. Like is used in real life.

It could be possible Lucas' companies didnt think the system through, or they made a mistake. Like they did in episode 6 with the uniform ranking on Grand moff Jerjerrod, or Admiral Piett.  Or they simply overlooked as being unimportant.

I think the clones should have different face markings, showing their individuality. This is what is seen in the CW series.

Mr. Mandalorian, on Mar 6 2009, 01:38 AM, said:

I like the clones like this. The only thing that bothers me is the hair...

Which hair?  

[Navy Trooper Fenson]

Tanotrooper, on Mar 6 2009, 01:29 AM, said:

This doesn't add up:

-Clone wars cartoons: Only the ARC troopers and Cody, Fordo are shown with such markings. (of course pilots and scuba clones are differently coloured as a class.) The series go straight to the beginning of episode III, and we only see plain clone troopers. (Phase I and II)

-The clone wars series (now) : Phase I clones have markings, haven't seen plain so far.

My annoyance is that I can't help but feel this is purely commercial, and doesn't benefit the Star Wars universe or the fans. (they can keep on inventing "special" units)

Well, this has partly to do with the creators of The Clone Wars wich wanted the clones to be more individual, so that Non-Star Wars Geeks who know the codenumber of every trooper can be worried about their favourite clones. In the comics clones were mainly the popular cannonfodder, like Stormtroopers, so markings wouldn´t be neccesary. In episode 3 George put a bajillion of different clones in the movie because he wanted to show that the empire stole the colour of the army (another example is the fleet of grey V-Wing fighters and Venators at the end of the movie) and maybe the commercial part, too.

For my part, I´m not annoyed because of the endless variations and legions, no, I am annoyed because LEGO produced mainly stupid clones. We´ve got the 327th Starcorp, Shocktroopers, 41st Elite in camouflage uniform, the company from Saleucami and Clones with the markings of the 501st legion but in green. So, which of this groups is worthy to buy an army of? Maybe the 41Elite and the 327th Star Corp but all the other troopers are too unpopular or were never seen on screen. Why didn´t they do orange Attack Battalion troops or a set with the 501st Legion? I don´t need 15 Shocktroopers, at most 3 or 4!

And to do a bit of a spoiler.

Tanotrooper, on Mar 6 2009, 01:29 AM, said:

-The clone wars series (now) : Phase I clones have markings, haven't seen plain so far.

Plain troopers are used quite often in the show. The 501st legion had some (under the command of blue striped Clone Sergeants and the slightly darker blue Captain Rex), the clones of an unknown group from episode 5 had no markings except for a few clones with dark red bioniculars, a part of the 212th Attack Battalion from Obi-Wan had no markings (rest of the troops has orange stripes on helmet and arms) and the 327th Star Corp had no markings except for Bly.

Not everything is lost for the first phase.

[Tim Bit]

I myself am loving the rainbow of colors the clones display.
Since the empire is grey and bleak they probably forced the clones to go back to white.
There are a lot of white clones such as the ones in rookies.
And lego is releasing just white and the odd commander witch affects us the most.
I'm fine with customization in the grand army of the republic.
Also think that if they were all white life would be boring for decalers.

[ADHO15]

Mr. Mandalorian, on Mar 6 2009, 12:38 AM, said:

Besides that, sometime during the CW the system was changed from rank markings to markings denoting what legion, battalion, or specialized squad the clones came from. For example, Cody's troops have orange markings like he does, and so on. What I don't get in the CW T.V. system, however, is how only a few of them have markings.... take a look at Innocents of Ryloth, for example. There are two clones with Cody's markings, and everyone else is simply white.

That is to do with cost in animation. It takes animators longer to detail and design every clone trooper in a scene to be part of the 212th Attack Battalion, for example. Getting the orange parts right on every trooper in every image would take ages.

If you watch the CW film with the commentary playing, you will hear them talking about how they reused Obi-Wan's and Palpatine's bodies in Jabba's Palace to cut the costs so they don't have to design new clothing for each character.

[RileyC]

I definitely agree. although i do like how the commanders have different painted armor but i hate how they voices vary slightly

[TLV]

It does get a little confusing with so many colors among the troopers, but I guess that is how things are in war. Soldiers start to customise their uniforms to their liking and enforcement of uniformity is usually lax.

[KimT]

TLV, on Mar 7 2009, 06:09 AM, said:

It does get a little confusing with so many colors among the troopers, but I guess that is how things are in war. Soldiers start to customise their uniforms to their liking and enforcement of uniformity is usually lax.

Aren't they clones?
Clones are not individuals. - They have no human needs or likings.
They're perfected for war and military life.
Having them act human is stupid.

"Around here we're all individuals"
"I'm not"

[Sinner]

KimT, on Mar 7 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

Aren't they clones?

Being clones doesn't mean that they'll act the same; look at identical twins for example. Even brought up under the same family they often end up being very different people.

[ADHO15]

Sinner, on Mar 7 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

Being clones doesn't mean that they'll act the same; look at identical twins for example. Even brought up under the same family they often end up being very different people.

EDIT: I was just about to use that example.  

Edited by ADHO15, 07 March 2009 - 12:01 PM.

[TheBrickHitHouse]

Agree 100% with the thread starter

Thre are so many daft little sub groups and then sub groups within sub groups one wonders if there is actually a singular 'Clone Army' at all!

KimT, on Mar 7 2009, 11:12 AM, said:

Aren't they clones?
Clones are not individuals. - They have no human needs or likings.
They're perfected for war and military life.
Having them act human is stupid.

"Around here we're all individuals"
"I'm not"

exactly - the Clone Wars series really wnds me up for the way each Clone is treated as an individual as opposed to  cannon fodder

Episodes where they risk life and limb to rescue Clones just strikes me as madness (and frankly, poor writing)

Each clone has the same genetics, training and experience - there should be fairly limited scope for any individualistic differences - hell, most clones are only a matter of months old!!!!

[ADHO15]

TheBrickHitHouse, on Mar 7 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Each clone has the same genetics, training and experience - there should be fairly limited scope for any individualistic differences - hell, most clones are only a matter of months old!!!!

As was said earlier, identical twins have the same genetics and are usually raised in the same environments, yet they have different personalities. If you know any actual clones that you know are 100% completely the same, please let me know and I'll take back everything I said.

Also, I think the clones take about 10 years to mature, so that's not true.