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question about 9 volt motor parts and weights


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#1 Jan

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 12:48 PM

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I recently cleaned up all my 30 year old 12 volt train material as a gift for my sons birthday together with the new (but not newest) station (7997). And as I hoped he fell in love with these trains I used to play with a lot. As he is really a builder, more than a player, the railroad changes a lot and there is where the problem came in. The flexibility of the plastic seems to be reduced over time resulting in lots of damage on the sleeper plates, rails, points, etc. the plastic just breaks very easily.
So now after half a year of playing(and damaging the tracks) I felt that I either had to replace a lot of 12 volt track and point etcetera or change to a different system. The last is what I did, so recently bought a nice portion of 9v rails a motor and powersupply. So now to the actual question. These 9 volt motors weight absolutely nothing compared to the old 12 volt, and on top of that there are also no weightblocks used in the 9 volt sets (the rc and pf trains have a batterypack as weight). I always thought that the weight was there to get grip, so isn't this needed with 9 volts?. And  would it hurt the motor if I place these weightblocks?.

Another question I have: When I bought the 9 volt rails and motor it came with an extra 9 volt motor wich was broken. I took it as I thought it might be nice for replacement parts in the future, but when I came home and managed to open it I got it working again (there was no contact between the powersupply and the motor). The only problem is that the person I bought it from allready opened it and I guess didnt put all gears back before closing, So I miss one small gear and metal axle to make my motor 4wd again. I hope anyone knows a place where I can find these parts, or a broken motor. I looked for it on bricklink and ebay but without result yet. I hope anyone can point me to a place where I can obtain this.

Thanks for any help in advance
Jan

Edited by TheBrickster, 08 July 2010 - 04:21 AM.


#2 hoeij

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 01:42 PM

View PostJan, on 05 July 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

I recently cleaned up all my 30 year old 12 volt train material as a gift for my sons birthday together with the new (but not newest) station (7997). And as I hoped he fell in love with these trains I used to play with a lot. As he is really a builder, more than a player, the railroad changes a lot and there is where the problem came in. The flexibility of the plastic seems to be reduced over time resulting in lots of damage on the sleeper plates, rails, points, etc. the plastic just breaks very easily.
So now after half a year of playing(and damaging the tracks) I felt that I either had to replace a lot of 12 volt track and point etcetera or change to a different system. The last is what I did, so recently bought a nice portion of 9v rails a motor and powersupply. So now to the actual question. These 9 volt motors weight absolutely nothing compared to the old 12 volt, and on top of that there are also no weightblocks used in the 9 volt sets (the rc and pf trains have a batterypack as weight). I always thought that the weight was there to get grip, so isn't this needed with 9 volts?. And  would it hurt the motor if I place these weightblocks?.

Another question I have: When I bought the 9 volt rails and motor it came with an extra 9 volt motor wich was broken. I took it as I thought it might be nice for replacement parts in the future, but when I came home and managed to open it I got it working again (there was no contact between the powersupply and the motor). The only problem is that the person I bought it from allready opened it and I guess didnt put all gears back before closing, So I miss one small gear and metal axle to make my motor 4wd again. I hope anyone knows a place where I can find these parts, or a broken motor. I looked for it on bricklink and ebay but without result yet. I hope anyone can point me to a place where I can obtain this.

Thanks for any help in advance
Jan
First question, I would not use the weightblocks because it means more work for the motor.  Are you using the wheelsets from the 12V system?  Those have a huge amount of friction, you'll reduce the load on the motor in half if you sell the 12V wheelsets on bricklink and replace them by 9V wheelsets.

Second question, yes, I have that gear.  You mean: not the gear that sits on the DC motor, and not the one that's on the axle that has the train wheels, but the one that sits in between, right?  Took a bit of searching, but I have one that I can mail to you. It is of no value to me. Just e-mail me (hoeij@math.fsu.edu) the address.

#3 Jan

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 09:16 AM

View Posthoeij, on 05 July 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

Second question, yes, I have that gear.  You mean: not the gear that sits on the DC motor, and not the one that's on the axle that has the train wheels, but the one that sits in between, right?  Took a bit of searching, but I have one that I can mail to you. It is of no value to me. Just e-mail me (hoeij@math.fsu.edu) the address.

absolutely great, I have send you an e-mail.
thanks.
Jan

Edited by Jan, 06 July 2010 - 10:00 AM.


#4 hoeij

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 02:12 PM

View PostJan, on 06 July 2010 - 09:16 AM, said:

absolutely great, I have send you an e-mail.
thanks.
Jan
It's in the mail now, it'll probably get there by the middle or the end of next week.  Let us know if it works, and if the 4WD provides enough traction for your trains.

The reason I have a spare gear/axle is because I burned out a 9V motor.  I took a used 9V motor that was already close to the end of its lifetime. I then decided to use it to pull a long train (putting extra weight on the motor for extra traction...).  This burned out the DC motor inside the 9V motor very quickly.  If an electrical motor is made to pull a heavy load, then it will use a lot of current (as in amps, not volts). In a perfect motor, amps is proportional to torque, and volts is proportional to rpm's.  Of course, our motors are not perfect, but it's still true that the force that the motor has to pull (but not the speed) determines amperage.
If you go over a certain threshold amperage, then that will burn off the brushes that touch the commutator.  In this case, driving that train slowly does not improve the lifetime of the motor because the amperage depends on the load and not on the speed.  The load on the motor depends on the weight of the train, the type of wheelsets, and on whether you're going through a curve or through straight track.

Even though in a 9V train motor you can't see the brushes when you open up the box, I could still see that the brushes were worn out because the DC motor in that 9V motor lights up when you put electricity on it (it lights up because of the sparks made by the worn out brushes inside the DC motor). That's a sure sign that that DC motor is toast, there's no point in putting it back, that's why I had that spare gear/axle.

To prevent a repeat I've decided not to weigh down any 9V motors anymore, if the wheels slip, it's an indication that the load is too much, a signal that I might be putting enough current on the motor to burn off the brushes.  A drastic reduction on the load of the motor can be done by replacing 12V wheelsets by 9V wheelsets, and fixing the manufacturing defect that most 9V wheelsets have (see the end of page 51 in railbricks issue #2.  I've done that procedure with hundreds of 9V wheelsets, a lot of work, but you do what you have to do to keep these motors alive because they don't make them anymore).

#5 AFOL12v

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 03:45 PM

What's left of it, do you want to sell those 12v stuff?

#6 Mark Bellis

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 05:16 PM

View Posthoeij, on 06 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

It's in the mail now, it'll probably get there by the middle or the end of next week.  Let us know if it works, and if the 4WD provides enough traction for your trains.

The reason I have a spare gear/axle is because I burned out a 9V motor.  I took a used 9V motor that was already close to the end of its lifetime. I then decided to use it to pull a long train (putting extra weight on the motor for extra traction...).  This burned out the DC motor inside the 9V motor very quickly.  If an electrical motor is made to pull a heavy load, then it will use a lot of current (as in amps, not volts). In a perfect motor, amps is proportional to torque, and volts is proportional to rpm's.  Of course, our motors are not perfect, but it's still true that the force that the motor has to pull (but not the speed) determines amperage.
If you go over a certain threshold amperage, then that will burn off the brushes that touch the commutator.  In this case, driving that train slowly does not improve the lifetime of the motor because the amperage depends on the load and not on the speed.  The load on the motor depends on the weight of the train, the type of wheelsets, and on whether you're going through a curve or through straight track.

Even though in a 9V train motor you can't see the brushes when you open up the box, I could still see that the brushes were worn out because the DC motor in that 9V motor lights up when you put electricity on it (it lights up because of the sparks made by the worn out brushes inside the DC motor). That's a sure sign that that DC motor is toast, there's no point in putting it back, that's why I had that spare gear/axle.

To prevent a repeat I've decided not to weigh down any 9V motors anymore, if the wheels slip, it's an indication that the load is too much, a signal that I might be putting enough current on the motor to burn off the brushes.  A drastic reduction on the load of the motor can be done by replacing 12V wheelsets by 9V wheelsets, and fixing the manufacturing defect that most 9V wheelsets have (see the end of page 51 in railbricks issue #2.  I've done that procedure with hundreds of 9V wheelsets, a lot of work, but you do what you have to do to keep these motors alive because they don't make them anymore).

I recommend a maximum of 200mA/motor for long term running, 300mA/motor peak.  I add more motors to my trains to avoid burnout and prolong the motors' life because, as you say, they're obsolete.  A loco with two 9V motors can pull a load of about 165g tractive effort at a good steady running speed, but only 55g at low speed.  A pair of PF motors is more powerful by about 45g at low speed and 30g at higher speeds, so the benefit is greater at low speeds.

The wheelset thing has been a big problem.  I test them by holding the wheelset upside down and spinning it, to see if either wheel flange catches on the frame.  If it does, I file the frame after removing the wheelset.  AFAIK the more recent build-it-yourself wheelsets are better in the respect?  The wheelset problem made a big difference to the tractive effort required to pull heavy wagons, the Santa Fe carriages being a particular example of this.

9V trains don't need additional weight over the motors as 12V trains do.  This is because a) the 9V traction is usually better than worn out (hardened) 12V rubber wheel rims and b) the 9V contact is better on the flanges than it usually was with the 12V contacts on the conductor rails.  I think the new 2010 PF wheels are grippier per unit loco weight than 9V motor wheels though.

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#7 Jan

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 07:59 PM

View Posthoeij, on 06 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

It's in the mail now, it'll probably get there by the middle or the end of next week.  Let us know if it works, and if the 4WD provides enough traction for your trains.

The reason I have a spare gear/axle is because I burned out a 9V motor.  I took a used 9V motor that was already close to the end of its lifetime. I then decided to use it to pull a long train (putting extra weight on the motor for extra traction...).  This burned out the DC motor inside the 9V motor very quickly.  If an electrical motor is made to pull a heavy load, then it will use a lot of current (as in amps, not volts). In a perfect motor, amps is proportional to torque, and volts is proportional to rpm's.  Of course, our motors are not perfect, but it's still true that the force that the motor has to pull (but not the speed) determines amperage.
If you go over a certain threshold amperage, then that will burn off the brushes that touch the commutator.  In this case, driving that train slowly does not improve the lifetime of the motor because the amperage depends on the load and not on the speed.  The load on the motor depends on the weight of the train, the type of wheelsets, and on whether you're going through a curve or through straight track.

Even though in a 9V train motor you can't see the brushes when you open up the box, I could still see that the brushes were worn out because the DC motor in that 9V motor lights up when you put electricity on it (it lights up because of the sparks made by the worn out brushes inside the DC motor). That's a sure sign that that DC motor is toast, there's no point in putting it back, that's why I had that spare gear/axle.

To prevent a repeat I've decided not to weigh down any 9V motors anymore, if the wheels slip, it's an indication that the load is too much, a signal that I might be putting enough current on the motor to burn off the brushes.  A drastic reduction on the load of the motor can be done by replacing 12V wheelsets by 9V wheelsets, and fixing the manufacturing defect that most 9V wheelsets have (see the end of page 51 in railbricks issue #2.  I've done that procedure with hundreds of 9V wheelsets, a lot of work, but you do what you have to do to keep these motors alive because they don't make them anymore).


View PostMark Bellis, on 06 July 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

I recommend a maximum of 200mA/motor for long term running, 300mA/motor peak.  I add more motors to my trains to avoid burnout and prolong the motors' life because, as you say, they're obsolete.  A loco with two 9V motors can pull a load of about 165g tractive effort at a good steady running speed, but only 55g at low speed.  A pair of PF motors is more powerful by about 45g at low speed and 30g at higher speeds, so the benefit is greater at low speeds.

The wheelset thing has been a big problem.  I test them by holding the wheelset upside down and spinning it, to see if either wheel flange catches on the frame.  If it does, I file the frame after removing the wheelset.  AFAIK the more recent build-it-yourself wheelsets are better in the respect?  The wheelset problem made a big difference to the tractive effort required to pull heavy wagons, the Santa Fe carriages being a particular example of this.

9V trains don't need additional weight over the motors as 12V trains do.  This is because a) the 9V traction is usually better than worn out (hardened) 12V rubber wheel rims and b) the 9V contact is better on the flanges than it usually was with the 12V contacts on the conductor rails.  I think the new 2010 PF wheels are grippier per unit loco weight than 9V motor wheels though.

Mark


This is quite an amount of technical info thrown over me. To go short, in need to reduce friction in the wheelsets as much as possible. I have read through the railbrick article, and I will for sure check my newer wheelsets. Second, I have to watch what the train is capable of, so in case of a slipping engine, just lower the weight of the train, or use a second motor to pull the weight.

View PostAFOL12v, on 06 July 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

What's left of it, do you want to sell those 12v stuff?

I am not gonna sell the 12 volt rails, there are so many uses for these old rails that the new don't have, rollercoasters, moving cranes, use it as load on the train. The fact that you can take it all apart gives a lot of possibilities.

Thanks for all the info, and after testing I think I come back with more questions.

#8 AFOL12v

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 10:51 PM

I meant more about the 12v motors itself :grin: ........

Have you also pic's about your son makes? I'm curious about that too.

Edited by AFOL12v, 06 July 2010 - 10:51 PM.


#9 hoeij

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 01:53 AM

View PostMark Bellis, on 06 July 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

I recommend a maximum of 200mA/motor for long term running, 300mA/motor peak.  I add more motors to my trains to avoid burnout and prolong the motors' life because, as you say, they're obsolete.  A loco with two 9V motors can pull a load of about 165g tractive effort at a good steady running speed, but only 55g at low speed.  A pair of PF motors is more powerful by about 45g at low speed and 30g at higher speeds, so the benefit is greater at low speeds.

Indeed, for longer 9V trains, the motor works very well at high speed but seems to struggle at lower speeds. That's why at the train show I use speed setting #4 (i.e. 6.5 volts) for the 9V trains. At that setting they don't fly out of the curves but they nevertheless go quite fast at that setting, and this seems to be easier on the motors.

The 12V motor, on the other hand, works well at slow speeds, it does not seem to struggle when you slow a train down.  For slow trains I much prefer the 12V motor, for fast trains I like the 9V motor better (the 9V motor also sounds like a high-speed train).

I have not measured what my 9V motors are using, but my 12V motors typically use 250mA  (goes up to almost 300mA in the curves, drops to about 200mA on the straights).  It seems reasonable that the 12V motors use more than 9V motors because they are a good bit larger than the 9V motors (not the box, that's the same size, but the DC motor inside).

Quote

The wheelset thing has been a big problem.  I test them by holding the wheelset upside down and spinning it, to see if either wheel flange catches on the frame.  If it does, I file the frame after removing the wheelset.  AFAIK the more recent build-it-yourself wheelsets are better in the respect?  The wheelset problem made a big difference to the tractive effort required to pull heavy wagons, the Santa Fe carriages being a particular example of this.
I felt the need to treat some of my built-it-yourself wheelsets as well.  Some of these wheelsets don't rub until some weight is put on them (they might go undetected in the test you mentioned).  I roll them over a smooth surface, while pressing down on them to mimic the weight, and then listen for rubbing sounds and feeling if they move easily or not.

Heavier cars do need the treatment much sooner than light-weight cars.  My Santa Fe cars, and metroliner club car, all bought used, were simply unpullable without treatment of the wheelsets.  Lighter cars take much longer before the rubbing friction develops.  I use a sharp Stanley knife to make a small cut where the wheel would otherwise be rubbing.

#10 Mark Bellis

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:21 PM

View Posthoeij, on 07 July 2010 - 01:53 AM, said:

Indeed, for longer 9V trains, the motor works very well at high speed but seems to struggle at lower speeds. That's why at the train show I use speed setting #4 (i.e. 6.5 volts) for the 9V trains. At that setting they don't fly out of the curves but they nevertheless go quite fast at that setting, and this seems to be easier on the motors.

The 12V motor, on the other hand, works well at slow speeds, it does not seem to struggle when you slow a train down.  For slow trains I much prefer the 12V motor, for fast trains I like the 9V motor better (the 9V motor also sounds like a high-speed train).

I have not measured what my 9V motors are using, but my 12V motors typically use 250mA  (goes up to almost 300mA in the curves, drops to about 200mA on the straights).  It seems reasonable that the 12V motors use more than 9V motors because they are a good bit larger than the 9V motors (not the box, that's the same size, but the DC motor inside).
Yes, speed setting 4 is good for up hill and down hill, without stalling or derailment.  Given the weight of four 8mm scale Mk1 coaches, I will still use 4 drive motors in my Hogwarts Express, two in the engine tender and two under the first coach.  Speed setting 5 is possible without derailment down the hill, but I need more reliability than that at shows, so more motors at speed 4 is better.

12V motors can pull up to 667mA at 12V. They have higher no-load current.  I doubled up on 9V motors when I switched from 12V to 9V.  I keep the 12V equipment for London Underground trains, which have the conductor rails for real!

One reason why the 12V motor work so well at low speed is the rectified power with incomplete smoothing, which provides extra torque in a similar way to PWM over smooth power.  Other model railways have enjoyed this benefit too (the ones that haven't converted to PWM or DCC that is!).  The tapped transformer was more expensive to produce than a resistor chain on a 3-pin regulator, hence the lighter 9V controller.

I have used a dual 30V 3A power supply (set below 12V or 9V), for both 12V and 9V trains at shows.  The extra current is plenty for switching trains live - stopping one and starting another as the points change in through-sidings on a 9V layout.  The 12V motors don't mind unsmoothed power but the 9V ones complain loudly, which is why I used the smooth supply.  I also recognised that unsmoothed power generates more heat in the motors.  As I use PF PWM more, for trains of more than 2 motors in 1 vehicle, I might have to make a slave H-bridge in order to guarantee that a 2-loco train always has the same power setting, in case one PF IR receiver missed the IR signal.  I would use an NCT and IR-Link sensor to send direct speed commands too, rather than the up and down commands from the standard remote.

View Posthoeij, on 07 July 2010 - 01:53 AM, said:

I felt the need to treat some of my built-it-yourself wheelsets as well.  Some of these wheelsets don't rub until some weight is put on them (they might go undetected in the test you mentioned).  I roll them over a smooth surface, while pressing down on them to mimic the weight, and then listen for rubbing sounds and feeling if they move easily or not.

Heavier cars do need the treatment much sooner than light-weight cars.  My Santa Fe cars, and metroliner club car, all bought used, were simply unpullable without treatment of the wheelsets.  Lighter cars take much longer before the rubbing friction develops.  I use a sharp Stanley knife to make a small cut where the wheel would otherwise be rubbing.
Yes, I've done the "run it on the desk" test too.  Forearm weight can represent wagon weight!
Up to now I have had enough ready-made wheelsets not to have to use the self-assembly ones on heavier wagons, but I'll probably keep it that way, using those for the lighter ones.

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#11 Jan

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:27 PM

One question still about the 'built it yourself wheelsets'. We recently bought a few cars of the 7898, freight train, and the wheel sets came as seperate axles, wheels and holders. But I have to push on the very hard to make the wheels hit the plastic. These sound like build it yourself, but I might be wrong. Is this problem connected to the train sets of the 9v era?

@AFOL12v, We keep everything, as stated in my first post, it was part of a birthdaypresent.

Jan

#12 hoeij

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 03:13 AM

View PostMark Bellis, on 10 July 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

12V motors can pull up to 667mA at 12V.
Thanks for the info (I would not dare to put so much current through my motors, so I would have never measured this myself..).

Quote

One reason why the 12V motor work so well at low speed is the rectified power with incomplete smoothing, which provides extra torque in a similar way to PWM over smooth power.  Other model railways have enjoyed this benefit too (the ones that haven't converted to PWM or DCC that is!).  The tapped transformer was more expensive to produce than a resistor chain on a 3-pin regulator, hence the lighter 9V controller.
Yes, the 12V controller is very heavy.  And it's not regulated, which means that I have to be careful when I make one train stop at a siding (I made the interrupter rails myself) because when one train stops, the other train(s) on the track will go faster because the reduced load on the controller makes it produce a higher voltage.  The 9V trains don't have this problem because the controllers are regulated so the voltage doesn't go up when one of the trains stops.  In the only video footage I have of my layout at our train show, I see my cargo train on the 12V track running quite fast. I think this footage must have been taken when I just stopped one train and forgot to adjust the speed setting.

I've been wondering, with multiple trains on the same 12V track, is it a good idea to connect a large capacitor to the track (I did that) to smooth out voltage bumps that each motor might send to the track?  Or would that take away some of the extra torque that you mentioned?

Quote

As I use PF PWM more, for trains of more than 2 motors in 1 vehicle, I might have to make a slave H-bridge in order to guarantee that a 2-loco train always has the same power setting, in case one PF IR receiver missed the IR signal.  I would use an NCT and IR-Link sensor to send direct speed commands too, rather than the up and down commands from the standard remote.
Today I tried out the new PF train motor, and the torque on the axles feels to me twice as much as the previous RC train motor.  I have not yet compared with 9V but I certainly suspect that if you need three 9V motors, then two of the new PF motors will suffice, making life much easier because then one loco can pull the whole thing.

I'd be quite comfortable putting a significant load on the new PF train motors. Although my torque test was simplistic, it did make me think that these are good motors (I'd still check to see if they get too warm, of course!).

And if two PF motors were to be insufficient, and you had to put a third one in loco #2, wouldn't that still be doable with just one power functions receiver (and one battery box)?  How much current can the receiver supply, and how much does one PF train motor consume under significant load?

#13 pilotmathew

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:46 PM

hi how are you i have an answer and i have a question can you please give me your telephone number so i can call you and tell you because theyre very long answersand a very long quetion thank

#14 Sinner

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 11:11 PM

View Postpilotmathew, on 30 March 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

hi how are you i have an answer and i have a question can you please give me your telephone number so i can call you and tell you because theyre very long answersand a very long quetion thank
That's a rather rude request! Why can't you discuss it here; train weights are hardly a private issue... :look:





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#15 pilotmathew

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:33 AM

i have a broken motor and i will send it to you i need your address but i need you to give me a motor that works and tell me how to test it



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