27 replies to this topic

[Tyron]

Hi guys,

I'm new to Eurobricks, so please apologize in case I have overlooked a thread that already answers my question.

My problem:

I want to order models I constructed in LDD4 without these models appearing in Lego's public gallery, especially because all the rights will then be transferred to Lego.

The only solution seems to be to order through PAB (pick a brick). Fine, but how do I create a parts list with all the lego parts numbers required?

Any helpful suggestions?

Thanks,
Tyron

PS: What I tried so far:

• Lego hotline: Had no clue, didn't call back as promised.
  
• LDD Manager: Great tool, but only provides BrickLink numbers (and BrickLink only provides design numbers, but no element numbers).
  
• Converting LDD to LDR, hoping that some other program does the job: No conversion tool worked. As I read on the Web this seems to be a difficult task.

[Calabar]

I think you have two ways:
- extract the lxf file and open the lxfml file: it is an xml file containing the list of bricks.
With a good text editor you can extract the list in a minute.
- dismantle your creation and then order by Design by Me. It is very simple to do: I often did that in order to create an image of the pieces I needed, an image to give to my favorite "lego pusher"  

But, as order bricks using pick a brick is less expensive than using design by me mode (that because there are not cost for printed box and instructions) I'm pretty sure other users already find an automatic mode to order pieces by pick a brick!

[Tyron]

@Calabar

Thanks for the answer. The lxfml file contains all the element numbers I need, but it doesn't add them up. So I would need to write a program that does this. Yap, that's one option. But I'm still looking for a better/more comfortable solution first.

You ordered a dismanteled model through "Designed by Me"? According to what it says on the Lego website this is not possible. They only allow "serious" models and explicitly say one should order spare parts through PAB. Any model not passing their guidelines/moderation will be rejected, i.e. will not be delivered. If this does work, i.e. if they deliver the parts even though the model doesn't make it to their gallery, I would be happy to pay a few bucks more. It would simply save so much time.

Does anyone else have experience with ordering dismanteled models or parts collections through "Designed by Me"?

[Calabar]

Oh, I didn't know about guidelines.
You could try to built something with the same pieces: I don't think they discard your built if it is not beautiful!
But this solution is surely a bit long...

About the list of numbers... what do you need exactly?
What's the way to add pieces to pick a brick without searching pieces manually?

[Tyron]

@ Calabar

Lego parts have a design number, which is just the shape, not the color, and an element number which is the exact part, i.e. shape plus color. Example: Go to http://shop.lego.com/pab and enter the element number 4211477 in the extended search. It displays a medium grey lamp holder. So if you have a list of element numbers ordering through PAB is rather fast. Thus what I'm looking for is a program that creates a summarized list of element numbers from a LDD4 model.

... or a way to order "rubbish" (= dismanteled model) directly through "Designed by Me" without any moderation.

Edited by Tyron, 17 December 2010 - 03:47 PM.

[Calabar]

Ok, so the problem is that you should insert two codes instead a single one, so the operation become too long.
mmm... I don't know if there is a database that associate brick design id and colour to "Element id" code.
However you could easily order bricks by colour, so I think it is not difficult to change colour code sometime...

About dismantle built, I think you can easily construct a ugly "something" in order to pass quality checks!  

A little curiosity: why don't give TLG rights on your model? I usually like to share my models. Do you think to sell that?

Edited by Calabar, 17 December 2010 - 03:56 PM.

[legolijntje]

You can try Superkalle's LDDmanager. It has many functions.

[Tyron]

@Calabar

It's not just a question of entering 2 codes or only 1. If I use LDDmanager I get a link to bricklist.com. There I can find the design number, which I can enter at lego.com. Then I must choose the right color. Talking about a dozen models with more than 3000+ lego parts in total that's too much extra work, which I would like to avoid.

Ideally, I still want to order through "Designed by Me". But their guidelines are tough. You should read them. No crap models allowed. The reason is easy: Lego doesn't make money on this service, or at least not much. The concept is to give their own designers new ideas and to have additional models to sell through the gallery without putting their own design work into them. So Lego is not interested in selling in any case. They are only interested in good models.

Regarding sharing , I knew the question would come :-) There are two reasons I don't want to share: First of all, I'm a professional designer and the models shall indeed be sold later. Secondly, I don't like Lego's mentality of stealing ideas just because I am ordering some parts. Imagine your paint supplier would only sell you oil paint if you would give him the copyright to the picture you paint with them. That would be rediculous! Lego should have the gallery as an option for those who wish to share, but the customer should not be forced to do so.

@legolijntje

As I said above, LDDmanager doesn't supply a list of Lego numbers, only Bricklist numbers, which are no good for ordering at PAB.

Edited by Tyron, 17 December 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[Superkalle]

Hi Tyron

Welcome to the forums.

1) Yes LDD Manager only has BrickLink numbers, and the reason is simply because I didn't think anyone would ever need a list of LEGO brick ID's. Naturally, since LDD parses the LXF-files, it has the LEGO DesignID's in the data tables. I'll look into showing that for the next version of LDD Manager.

2) If you are in DesignByMe mode, the Lego ElementID's are listed in the LXF-file, and in LDD Manager I also extract these ID's into the data tables (but once again I never bothered to show them).

3) BrickLink also has a list of ElementID's, and that too is actually in LDD Manager, so I could show ElementID for a lot more parts then are in DesignByMe mode. Once again, look into that for the next version.

4) I doesn't help you right now, but I'm right now looking into a function in LDD Manager to upload a LDD model directly to PaB. At the moement I'm investigatin exectuting Javascript from VBA. I will probably create some annoyance at TLG, but I don't care. It's silly that you shouldn't be able to order bricks directly from DbM without having to pay for a box etc.

Regarding LEGO and DbM, can't you just design something really simple from the bricks in your model and see if it passes through. It'd be a great story to tell here on the forum? Otherwise, if you want help right now to get a list of LEGO DesignIDs and ElementIDs for your model, you can PM it to me and I'll send a list back to you (and no, you don't have to send me the full design Just dismantle away....)

(Oh, and about TLG only intersted in good models throught the DbM on-line gallery? I honestly don't thinks so. Have you seen the models? They aren't exactly good if you see what I mean

[Calabar]

Tyron, on 17 December 2010 - 05:35 PM, said:

It's not just a question of entering 2 codes or only 1. If I use LDDmanager I get a link to bricklist.com. There I can find the design number, which I can enter at lego.com. Then I must choose the right color. Talking about a dozen models with more than 3000+ lego parts in total that's too much extra work, which I would like to avoid.

That's true, but Pick a Brick colour palette is extremely limited, so even with 3000 pieces, you should chance the colour dropdown menu item few times. That's what I mean.  

Tyron, on 17 December 2010 - 05:35 PM, said:

Ideally, I still want to order through "Designed by Me". But their guidelines are tough. You should read them. No crap models allowed. [...]

I didn't mean crap models, but simply models you can built quickly and without design efforts. Beauty is not an objective measure, so it is impossible they discard you model because it isn't at the state of the art!  

Tyron, on 17 December 2010 - 05:35 PM, said:

Regarding sharing, I knew the question would come :-)

Eheh, I know, the question was a bit obvious!
As I told before, I see LEGO as a light-hearted entertainment and a passion, so I prefer to share all my creations than jealously keep that! But is surely right that everybody do what he want with his work.
However all these precaution are not useful I think: if TLG want to use your design, can simply copy parts of your creations details and upload that on DbM: so they became owner of that design.

Edited by Calabar, 17 December 2010 - 08:03 PM.

[Tyron]

@ Superkalle

Thanks for the detailed answer. Yap, listing the element numbers in the summary of the LDDmanager would be a cool feature.

Having a Javascript doing all the ordering would be even cooler. I've been thinking about that myself. My approach would be a frameset with a combination of PHP (for parsing the LXFML file) and Javascript (for calling the addBrick function). It should be rather easy, because Lego uses AJAX and doesn't reload the page. So one could keep triggering the Javascript rather fast and simply compare the bricks count in the shopping basket in the end. In case I find time for some tests I'll let you know the results.

I agree, the models at Lego aren't really that good. But they do have their regulations, so sending a bunch of parts won't work. And building another model from 300 parts or more will take more time than programming the shopping script mentioned above. I prefer spending my time on long-term solutions.


@ Calabar

This is not about sharing, it's about me not wanting to transfer all rights to my designs to Lego, which is exaclty what happens if you upload to the DBM gallery (just read the rules). If you upload a model, Lego has the right to sell it, produce it or use it in any other way without paying you a penny. If I share my work then I want to decide how and with whom I do that.

There is a big difference in me uploading my designs or somebody else. If I upload my designs then I agree to transferring all rights to Lego. If Lego (or somebody else) uploads my models then it's copyright infringement, i.e. illegal. So my precautions do make sense.

Personally, I believe this silly copyright regulation actually is the reason why there are so few models in the Lego gallery and why (almost) none of them are of a professional quality. What they are demanding from their paying customers simply is outrageous!

Edited by Tyron, 20 December 2010 - 04:58 PM.

[Calabar]

Tyron, on 17 December 2010 - 11:46 PM, said:

But they do have their regulations, so sending a bunch of parts won't work. And building another model from 300 parts or more will take more time than programming the shopping script mentioned above. I prefer spending my time on long-term solutions.

I absolutely agree with that. If you can realize a little software that does it, that's surely the best solution.
Ad I think all people that wants to by from pick a brick after the built a model with LDD will tanks you for that!  

About sharing models, I think this is not the right place for a long discussion.
But I think that things could be very different if observed from a different point of view, and we should thanks TLG for providing us a great mean to express our creativity, and not accuse it to stole our ideas.  

[Tyron]

Calabar, on 18 December 2010 - 09:32 AM, said:

I absolutely agree with that. If you can realize a little software that does it, that's surely the best solution.
Ad I think all people that wants to by from pick a brick after the built a model with LDD will tanks you for that!  

About sharing models, I think this is not the right place for a long discussion.
But I think that things could be very different if observed from a different point of view, and we should thanks TLG for providing us a great mean to express our creativity, and not accuse it to stole our ideas.  

@ Calabar

Yes, Lego did provide us with a great tool to express our creativity. Nevertheless, the world isn't black & white, and the good guys are not always the good guys. Let me quote the legal notice found on the Lego website, so that you know what we are talking about here. Lego says:

4. Any communication or material you transmit to the Site by electronic mail or otherwise, including any data, questions, comments, suggestions, or the like is, and will be treated as, non-confidential and non-proprietary. Anything you transmit or post may be used by LEGO A/S or its affiliates for any purpose, including but not limited to reproduction, disclosure, transmission, publication, broadcast, and posting. Furthermore, LEGO A/S is free to use any ideas, concepts, know-how, or techniques contained in any communication you send to the Site for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to developing, manufacturing, and marketing products using such information.

See what I mean? Anything you send to Lego can by used by Lego in whichever way Lego desires. Let's say a professional designer spends a few months designing an entire new theme world for Lego and that designer wants to suggest this to Lego, hoping to earn some money. So he sends some pictures to Lego by mail. According to the paragraph above Lego would then have the right to produce and sell the theme world without paying the designer a penny.

Of course I am aware of the origin of this paragraph. In large companies, these kind of regulations are thought up by the lawyers to protect the company. Because maybe Lego is working on exactly the same idea the designer above sent them. In such a case they want to avoid being sued by that designer. So Lego has a good reason for such a regulation.

Bottom line: The fact that Lego claims this right doesn't mean they would really act this way. So unless Lego actually does disrespect copyrights and does use uploaded models I don't want to accuse them of anything. But I don't want to take the risk either when uploading commercial work. So I will continue looking for an alternative solution.

[Calabar]

I think you have understood what I mean, so I think we are nearly agree.  

[Superkalle]

Tyron, on 18 December 2010 - 11:05 AM, said:

Of course I am aware of the origin of this paragraph. In large companies, these kind of regulations are thought up by the lawyers to protect the company. Because maybe Lego is working on exactly the same idea the designer above sent them. In such a case they want to avoid being sued by that designer. So Lego has a good reason for such a regulation.

Yes, I sent a mail to TLG about exactly this matter, but got back that their lawyers had reviewed the text again and found no error. Naturally though, if someone steals a unique design from someone else (for example downloading a LDD file or re-creating a unique design in LDD, and then uploads it to LEGO.com), then TLG cannot claim ownership of such stolen copyrighted material. It's just that no one has yet filed such lawsuit against TLG. But when/if they do, I'm quite certain they will win. It's basic international copyright laws that kick in, and TLG cannot disregard that.

But it's like you say, TLG has the paragraph to cover the case when kids upload own design and they don't want to get sued for having stolen any ideas. But TLG have simply not concidered stolen designs.

Interesing topic for sure.

But still, I just can't belive that TLG would refuse a very simplistic design, for example if you create something of your 300 bricks and call it a moon landscape. How can TLG judge what is a good model or not.

[Tyron]

@Superkalle

Regarding the legal issues, I totally agree.

Moon landscape? I love that idea! Or maybe a junkyard

I'll try to get in touch with the people who are actually in control of the DbM programme, i.e. who decide what goes into the gallery and what doesn't. Maybe they can clarify this whole issue.

[Mr Hobbles]

Hi guys,

I just knocked a quick tool that lists the PaB part numbers and quantities for ordering when you paste in the LXFML. You can find it here.

Instructions: Rename .lxf file to .zip, unzip, then open the .lxfml file. Copy and paste the XML into the big field on the left, then click the "Go" button.  

WARNING: This was a quick 30 min job, so there's no design yet, and the code is untidy. I also haven't done enough testing to verify whether the info it generates is correct, but it seems ok from the couple of files I've tested it on. I'm gonna keep working on it though, so any feedback is appreciated!

PS: For those worried about stuff getting uploading to my server, it's all done in Javascript on the client-side, so no need to worry.

Cheers!

Edited by Mr Hobbles, 30 December 2010 - 11:10 PM.

[RubeusHagrid]

Superkalle, on 17 December 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

4) I doesn't help you right now, but I'm right now looking into a function in LDD Manager to upload a LDD model directly to PaB. At the moement I'm investigatin exectuting Javascript from VBA. I will probably create some annoyance at TLG, but I don't care. It's silly that you shouldn't be able to order bricks directly from DbM without having to pay for a box etc.

Tyron, on 17 December 2010 - 11:46 PM, said:

@ Superkalle

Having a Javascript doing all the ordering would be even cooler. I've been thinking about that myself. My approach would be a frameset with a combination of PHP (for parsing the LXFML file) and Javascript (for calling the addBrick function). It should be rather easy, because Lego uses AJAX and doesn't reload the page. So one could keep triggering the Javascript rather fast and simply compare the bricks count in the shopping basket in the end. In case I find time for some tests I'll let you know the results.

I agree, the models at Lego aren't really that good. But they do have their regulations, so sending a bunch of parts won't work. And building another model from 300 parts or more will take more time than programming the shopping script mentioned above. I prefer spending my time on long-term solutions.

Any progress on uploading directly to PAB yet? This would come in really useful to me.
Thanks

Edited by RubeusHagrid, 05 January 2011 - 06:14 PM.

[Superkalle]

RubeusHagrid, on 05 January 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

Any progress on uploading directly to PAB yet? This would come in really useful to me.
Thanks

I haven't had the time to look into to it further. Maybe if some of the others in the thread has?

[pacc]

Hi everyone,
Here is the script you requested - you can paste the output from the script in the post after this one and add the bricks to the PaB shoppingcart.
(paste another model and add again to compile a larger order, no undo/substract implemented though)

Another use is to show the PaB shoppingcart as a list that you can cut and paste into a texteditor for later use.

Install greasemonkey into your firefox browser, click on the link below and restrict the script to 'http://shop.lego.com/pab/PabPage.aspx'
Greasemonkey PaB Script
You will see a small box in the upper left corner of the PaB page if installed correctly.

ToDo for someone else:
SuperKalle may compare the input format to his LDD-manager, maybe bricklink id' and cleartext name of the brick can be included...
Hobbles might try to add the jQuery code on the PaB page to parse lxfml directly if needed - they do include some jQuery but it just didn't work for me when I tried.
Oh, and we might start a new topic with some searchable tags once you think it is fit for everyone.

Edited by pacc, 22 January 2011 - 07:51 AM.

[Mr Hobbles]

pacc, on 17 January 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

Hi everyone,
Here is the script you requested - you can paste the output from the script posted earlier and add the bricks to the PaB shoppingcart.
(paste another model and add again to compile a larger order, no undo/substract implemented though)

A Warning! The script above will treat each part of multipart bricks as an unique brick - A torso will for example be added 5 times! Steering wheel 2 times...

Another use is to show the PaB shoppingcart as a list that you can cut and paste into a texteditor for later use.

Install greasemonkey into your firefox browser, click on the link below and restrict the script to 'http://shop.lego.com/pab/PabPage.aspx'
Greasemonkey PaB Script
You will see a small box in the upper left corner of the PaB page if installed correctly.

ToDo for someone else:
SuperKalle may compare the input format to his LDD-manager, maybe bricklink id' and cleartext name of the brick can be included...
Hobbles might try to add the jQuery code on the PaB page to parse lxfml directly if needed - they do include some jQuery but it just didn't work for me when I tried.
Oh, and we might start a new topic with some searchable tags once you think it is fit for everyone.

Hi pacc,

This is great thanks. :)  Haven't used it yet but will hopefully get the chance to use it this weekend.

I've modified my script to include the change you suggested.  I've also moved it slight, it can now be found here (Done purely to keep my files in order. :P)

Thanks for the heads up. :)

[lgorlando]

This may have been "over tech-y-fied". Simply break up your model…
I never let lego have any of my models...ASSEMBLED...

Break up your LDD Model then save the new model as "SomeModelnameScrambled"

You can then order the pieces in your model thru the  LDD order link with no worries that TLG will "own your original design". Of course ordering through LDD is about $10 more expensive because you will get an instruction manual and box but you save time (and programming). I've done this  lots in the past. It works like a charm! You will get a box image of a nasty disassembled model but it is indecipherable and you then use the pieces in your original, neat model. Good luck!

[Henchmen4Hire]

If anyone wants me to build something out of their original model so LEGO can't own your design, send me the LDD file of your original model and I'll do it for free, I have lots of free time.

Disclaimer: By sending any materials or models, digital, physical or otherwise, to DrNightmare you agree to forfeit all ownership of the materials and/or models to DrNightmare so he may reproduce, manufacture, sell, and add purple bricks all over the place.

[Superkalle]

DrNightmare, on 26 January 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

If anyone wants me to build something out of their original model so LEGO can't own your design, send me the LDD file of your original model and I'll do it for free, I have lots of free time.

Disclaimer: By sending any materials or models, digital, physical or otherwise, to DrNightmare you agree to forfeit all ownership of the materials and/or models to DrNightmare so he may reproduce, manufacture, sell, and add purple bricks all over the place.

This feels a bit spammy to me. Why would anyone want to forfeit the rights to LEGO just to put them in the hands of you?

[Brickdoctor]

Superkalle, on 26 January 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

This feels a bit spammy to me. Why would anyone want to forfeit the rights to LEGO just to put them in the hands of you?

I'm pretty sure he's joking. Notice the line about putting purple bricks all over the place.