Quick check: LDD or real bricks?

[Mataroa]

Do you, dear reader, have a preference as to how MOCs are presented?

Looking around the forums, it's sorely obvious that MOCs built on the computer (with programs like LDD) don't get nearly as much attention or love as MOCs that are built in real life, with a few rare exceptions. So, why is this? Respond in 3... 2... 1...

Edited November 11, 2013 by Mataroa

[Lego Spy]

I think it's probably because something built out of physical Lego is more breathtaking than a digital one. You don't get the same, "Wow! Someone put real time and dedication into that!"* feeling when you look at a digital MOC because you have an unlimited number of pieces, pieces in certain colors, etc. There is, of course, no difference in quality, it's just human nature.

*(Not saying that people don't digitally! )

Edited November 11, 2013 by Lego Spy

[Mataroa]

I get what you mean, props for being nice, but what I read was:

"If you don't have the cash to shell out for bricks, you'll meet a closed door here at Eurobricks."

That's a shame. Understandable, but still.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Mataroa

[Lego Spy]

I get what you mean, props for being nice, but what I read was:

"If you don't have the cash to shell out for bricks, you'll meet a closed door here at Eurobricks."

That's a shame. Understandable, but still.

Well... I don't know what to say to that. It's true, and it's not.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Lego Spy

[Robianco]

I think if you want to see it that way then you will... but I have a similar response to digitally created MOCs because at their very nature there's something lacking.

An MOC should be about people creating things with Lego bricks... seeing how they fit together... what you can create. It's something organic. Digital feels cold in comparison. You can only get pieces to fit together how the programme allows.

An MOC should say 'Look what I built' rather than 'Look at the picture of something I'd like to build'.

My feelings on Cuusoo differ from a lot of people I think in that I don't think certain things should be submitted but that's another story... one thing I do think though is that you should submit your Cuusoo project in actual bricks.

I just get the feeling of 'Hey... I couldn't be bothered building these out of actual Lego... So I'd like you to.' Rightly or wrongly.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Robianco

[Junpei]

I think LDD files are just plain ugly, I kind of ignore them. I love renders though, and they look much better than LDD. LDD to POV-ray is free, it's not much work to render a model...

[Jim]

I have seen some huge LDD MOCs which got plenty attention.

However, maybe making a small MOC in LDD raises the question; why not build it with actual bricks?!

I for one like an LDD MOC as well, but not everybody is on the same page, I guess.

[Alasdair Ryan]

The great thing about cad is the unlimited number of parts you can use,you can build something in cad and then buy the parts required to make it in real life.

[Jim]

Yup, I use digital tools in the same manner.

Mataroa, are you refering to a particular theme?

[Lego Otaku]

I often start with LDD to see if something can be done and how, export it to want list using LDD Manager, buy what I don;t have, then I try to make the real one. So it's both if I like how LDD came out.

[Bob De Quatre]

I am an LDD builder myself, for the reason that I don't own any bricks other than my pre-dark age very used bricks...

I've done a lot of LDD MOC, and they got variable attention, but I agree in the fact that real brick MOCs attire much people and comments.

The question is why?

I think that a real brick MOC looks way better than an LDD one, even when using a rendering program. People might think that building a good MOC in LDD is much easier than in real bricks...

There are reasons, some may be wrong, some may be right...

[AmperZand]

Funny you should say that Mataora because LDD seems to get too much love at EB. I have lost count of the number of threads about LDD MOCs that aren't marked "[LDD]" and the mods do nothing about it.

LDD is fine as a step towards creating real MOCs but should never be an end in itself or pass itself off as the real thing.

[Laservampire]

Also, LDD designs don't take into account what could be an overlooked fatal stability flaw in the design. I hit that problem when trying to build my first couple of LDD MOCs.

[Brickdoctor]

Funny you should say that Mataora because LDD seems to get too much love at EB. I have lost count of the number of threads about LDD MOCs that aren't marked "[LDD]" and the mods do nothing about it.

There's no rule that says you have to declare that an MOC is made with LDD in its topic's title.

[obsidianheart]

Also, LDD designs don't take into account what could be an overlooked fatal stability flaw in the design. I hit that problem when trying to build my first couple of LDD MOCs.

I run into this a bunch, but these days if I'm unsure of a section's stability, I'll try to build that section with (usually mis-colored) parts or stand-ins for the parts I don't have. Sometimes it even works!

I get why there's a bias against LDD. There are few options for image enhancements making a lot of the presentations look same-y, most of the prints aren't there, ect. ect. ect. I usually hold my tongue when I see people get uppity about it or discount it out of hand, but it frustrates me to think that a huge cross-section of the fanbase view LDD builders as second-class citizens or people with nothing real to contribute.

I couldn't have built most of the MOCs I have without LDD, and using it extensively has helped me grow by leaps and bounds as a designer and a builder. I don't have a lot of parts, and I don't have a lot of free time or money to spend on stuff I won't use, so using LDD gives me an idea of exactly what I'll need.

But, hey, it's not for everyone!

[tomdobs55]

The majority of my Lego is packed away in storage at the moment so I generally do most building in LDD. That being said I'm generally much more impressed when a MOC i's in real brick because the way the colors and whatnot come together in real life seems much better when photographed as opposed to a screenshot of a computer program. As an aside those who say it's easier to build in a computer program have apparently never tried to make an entire modular building in LDD. Not as easy as it looks.

[Brawl]

I use LDD personally because Lego bricks are ridiculously expensive to purchase without going to a PAB wall thing. I like to make very large complicated things, and I'd be even more broke than I am now if I purchased all of the pieces I need for these projects. :(

If I had the funds, I would gladly stop using LDD altogether since the real bricks are much more fun and rewarding to use. Of course, with enough 3D rendering witchcraft, anything can be real. ;)

[Faefrost]

I think LDD files are just plain ugly, I kind of ignore them. I love renders though, and they look much better than LDD. LDD to POV-ray is free, it's not much work to render a model...

This kind of mirrors my thoughts. I view LDD as a tool for creating a MOC. Not really as one for presenting it. Kind of like an architect showing people the blueprints of a really great building he designed, rather than showing them a final rendering, or an actual building. I am always particularly appaled by the number of people that present CuuSoo projects with those god awful LDD backgrounds.

[Mataroa]

are you refering to a particular theme?

I refer to no theme, section, or author in particular. I browsed pages 1-5 in a few areas, and anything tagged with [LDD] seemed buried among the real builds. It didn't matter that the creator spent anywhere from a week to a few months building it, and that's the problem child. There is absolutely no difference between virtual and real when you get past as to how the build is presented, and that point is lost when the two are compared.

The great thing about cad is the unlimited number of parts you can use.

One of my two points, exactly. It's great when I can copy a build and modify it, and compare the two. When I have a version I like over another, I export it to the relevant project.

Can't do that with real bricks.

I view LDD as a tool for creating a MOC. Not really as one for presenting it.

Okay, fine. I see that point. But is there more to it than visual representation? (Hint, there is.)

As I said above, fantastic builds (in my eyes) that were built with LDD bit the dust simply because they used the white backgrounds. I'm guilty of that, laziness on my part. But that's only the background! Your attention should be focused on the build! Some of the most famous art pieces have white canvas, and while Lego is something less than fine art, it should still apply.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mataroa

[Faefrost]

Okay, fine. I see that point. But is there more to it than visual representation? (Hint, there is.)

As I said above, fantastic builds (in my eyes) that were built with LDD bit the dust simply because they used the white backgrounds. I'm guilty of that, laziness on my part. But that's only the background! Your attention should be focused on the build! Some of the most famous art pieces have white canvas, and while Lego is something less than fine art, it should still apply.

Oh I agree. And yes digital presentations of designs can be great. I just don't react well to raw LDD screen shots or exports. They are great for displaying a technique. But if you want to show me the MOC, either build it for real, or run the design through LDD2POV. Heck my sig picture is actually a rendering of oneof my MOC's. I actually have the thing built in the brick sitting over my desk. But the rendering looks cleaner and better than any of my attempts to photograph it. The key point is not so much how the design came to be, or if it is plastic or digital, but rather is the presentation of it polished and eye catching.

[ShaydDeGrai]

I know I have a bias toward realized models over rendered ones (even nice ray-traced ones). The "problem" as I see it, is that CAD is an abstract design tool: unlimited parts, exactly the colors and quantities you need, weightless elements held in position by the principles of art rather than physics. It's a place I might go to brainstorm and prototype an idea, not to implement a "finished" one.

I have a lot more respect for brick built creations because _real_ designs have to overcome a lot more complications than virtual ones (e.g. "How do you make your Space Battleship Yamato sturdy enough to be swooshable while keeping it light enough to actually pick up for fun?" "where do you put all the gears you'll need to actually motorize that awesome technic car you're supposedly driving with a single low-torque motor?") Perhaps I'd feel differently if LDD were an actual simulator with a physics engine rather than just a 3D drawing tool, but I doubt it. Having done both, I realize that real models require a level of commitment and ingenuity that CAD tools gloss over.

It's a bit like the difference between learning to play an instrument versus learning to play a tune on an iPod - both will get you an (effectively) infinite stream of music (and the guy with the iPod will probably start producing it a lot faster than the guy sitting down at a piano for the very first time) but mastery of one skill-set demands a lot more respect than the other specifically because the audience at large appreciates how much more effort and discipline is involved.

[Gnac]

Being as I am a terrible photographer (and more than a little OCD about capturing the "correct" colours), I choose to present the detail of my MOCs with LDD/POV-Ray shots. I can have full control over lighting, positioning, and even have a transparent background for placing the model in a scene. I believe The LEGO Company has been using renders for a while now, and for that reason, I think it's unfair to criticise hobby builders for doing so. After all, I did a lot of post-editing on this thing below, including softening the shadows and combining composite renders to get more realistic transparency.

Every model I design in LDD is intended to be built for real, and I will often refine the digital design alongside the physical one, in the event that structural problems arise during building. This has improved my approach to design "in my mind's eye" to the point where both digital design and physical building are rapid processes which often result in a sturdy model.

ALSO: Tools such as LDD Manager are invaluable for checking the availability of parts in particular colours, and creating a shopping list when it's time to actually build a thing!

[Aanchir]

Personally, the quality of the image and the quality of the MOC are what get my attention, not the format of the image. A high-quality render or high-quality photo of an awesome, creative MOC is always good. Conversely, a low-effort MOC will not impress me a lot, particularly if it's an LDD screenshot with the lowest graphics settings or a photo taken with an old-school cell phone camera.

I think the best way to present MOCs is to have both digital AND photographic images if possible. Having a digital model available for download means that people can view it from all angles (and see how it's assembled), and screenshots of a digital model can show a level of detail that it's hard to capture in a photograph. But a photo presents a sort of authenticity that it can be hard to match with a render. The way the light hits the model, the surface finish of the actual bricks, and the tiny imperfections where bricks don't line up quite perfectly are hard to match with a render, even using advanced rendering tools like POVray.

[BEAVeR]

I use LDD a lot myself, because with the little money I have as a student, I rather buy LEGO sets I really like, than buying bricks for a MOC that probabely will be... not as good as that LEGO set.

So yes, it's mostly a question of money. The digital world is wonderful and free, so why don't use it to it's full extent?

In essence, I think that's what digital LEGO tools are all about: making LEGO available for everyone. Now, people in countries with very high LEGO-prices (when we're complaining about those prices, their situation is about 3 times as worse). OK, people need a computer, but if they need that anyway, then installing a LEGO Cad is about as cheap as the sunrise.

I don't think digital and real life MOCs should be treated in the same way. Both have their powers and their falws. Of course, making physical rigid structures digitally is really hard. The only feedback you have, is the "select connected" tool. And of course you can use parts in colors that don't exist in real life. But is building with LEGO really about sticking to the system? Hell no. LEGO is about rising above the restrictions you have. It's not about the physical world, but about your imagination. Everything is possible.

That's why people keep finding connections TLG had never intended. That's why people make custom minifigures. That's why people don't just build what's in the building instructions.That's why LEGO exists as it is today. That's why we all love to play with LEGO. To push the boundaries of what we have, to realize that world-changing idea that's in our head.

So why look at digital MOCs as inferior? Are they less creative, just because they use parts that don't exist? Are they ugly, because they may be a bit feeble? I don't think so.

That's why I'm equally stunned by a good digital and real MOC. And when they're well presented, I like it even more, because you can see then that the creator doesn't just let his MOC go on his own, without help. It's just a collection of overpriced plastic bricks. But with a story, with a nice picture, you can see commitment behind that pile of bricks. you can see love, inspiration, creativity, dedication. Things I miss in this often grey world. Things that make me say: "thank you Eurobricks "

[dr_spock]

It's worth the effort to render the LDD with LDD2POV + POV-RAY. (Took 90 minutes on my laptop.) The LDD screen shot feature is not good looking when compared to the rendered image.

I couldn't find the Lego bauble part or ribbon in LDD to make my EB Xmas Raffle contest entry. So yay for local Lego store and physical pieces.

ldd vs render vs photo by dr_spock_888, on Flickr