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#101 Hinckley

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostShadows, on 20 September 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

but please don't try to blame me for something I never did,
I'm not blaming you. I'm telling the story of what happened. I don't feel I need to blame anybody for anything as I've done nothing wrong. :pir_kiss:

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#102 Palathadric

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostRick, on 20 September 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Why haven't I seen your signup yet? :look:
I will, if you need the players. I'm sure there's a lot of people who never participated in an EB School Mafia game who would like the opportunity. Also by tomorrow or so, I should better know how my next month will be looking time-wise.
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#103 Rick

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:44 PM

View PostPalathadric, on 20 September 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I will, if you need the players.
Right now, it looks like we still have a few spots to fill.

#104 badboytje88

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostRick, on 20 September 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Right now, it looks like we still have a few spots to fill.

I'd be more than happy to fill in a spot. After this game I really feel like I could use a few lessons...

Hinck thanks for hosting this game, it was complicated and entertaining as usual. Thanks for considering me as one of your participants. Team scum I feel bad for you guys. You were doing such an amazing job, sorry the serial killers win condition made you lose the game in the end.

I wish I didn't suck so much in defending myself...

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#105 Waterbrick Down

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 02:09 AM

Are we going to get answers to the night riddles by any chance?

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#106 Hinckley

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 04:34 AM

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 21 September 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

Are we going to get answers to the night riddles by any chance?
Yes. That and further analysis to come. I just needed a break.

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#107 Masked Builder

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:29 PM

That was certainly an interesting end.  I stopped paying attention to the writeboard after I died, so I have no idea what was going on in there.  

Hink - You did an excellent job hosting as always, the sets were beautiful, the story was great, then ending condition for Draggy was interesting.  It is a game though.

I think I need to go back to a smaller less complicated game now, let's try for that Mafia school game...
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#108 Hinckley

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM

Player Feedback and post-game analysis

Controversy over Win Conditions
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not saying any of this to poke at anyone or push Shadows into a public confrontation. I am sharing my experience as the host and justifying my Actions as host when responding to the things that happened during this game.

Let me also preface this by saying: Players, if something confuses you, figure it out. Leave the host alone. Don't pester the host. The only information you are entitled to from the host is the info revealed in day openings and from your Night Actions. Do your best not to argue with the host. Don't pester, push, badger, insult, nag, make little digs or suggest that the game is structured poorly. Do it if you want, but then go fuck yourself. This is the time to argue with the host and judge the game mechanics. You can't judge what you can't know and you can't know everything until it's all over. Leave the damn host alone unless he or she has made a mistake in giving your Night Action results like giving you the information on the wrong target or something. "Hey host, you had me kill Scubacarrot. I targeted Pandora. So...that's a little weird, huh? Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today? :look: I guess Scubacarrot's death was kind of cool. But, I'd like to see it go the other way...if you could, please." See how constructive that it? That's preferred too. Not "Your game is total bullshit now. You killed the wrong person. Way to fuck everything. Good job. Too bad the game is totally broken now and that's all your fault. :hmpf: Thanks for nothing."

:hmpf_bad:

Dragonator's Win Condition
Dragonator wins when he kills everyone, which he did.

So why then is he allowed to be converted to Scum?
Oh, because it was devious, exciting and cool! :sweet: And would totally work if the Scum didn't know ahead of time that he was the Serial Killer. Period. The big problem with this stems from the fact that Shadows knew Dragonator was the Serial Killer before he was converted...on Night Two. Even though I'm used to Draggy and Shadows claim to each other, I didn't expect this. And I know that Shadows and Draggy don't just quote their role PMs to each other. But I've played enough games with them to know that they have an extra layer of working together before they consider killing each other and they usually only kill each other when they learn, earlier than most, that their win conditions are conflicting. However, this was the plan all along. Foog and I talked about this long before it even appeared possible. Dragonator's win condition is not changed because he's converted. His win condition is the same as it was for the beginning and would be no matter what player had been drawn to be the Lumberjack.

Isn't a Scum-aligned Serial Killer ridiculously powerful and totally in a position to win?
Perhaps. But a Serial Killer is up against the FBI Agent, the watcher, the tracker, the investigator, the vig. It just would give the Serial Killer a new and interesting place to hide. Imagine the Scum think they have converted a Vanilla Townie. Yet, on Day Five the watcher brings forward the result that they saw that convertee targeting the Serial Killer victim. :devil: Oh wow, that would be so cool. Evict the convert! He's a Serial Killer! :laugh: Whee! I really would've loved that. The Serial Killer is a good balancing measure. He kills Scum and Town and both sides want to get rid of him or her. The Scum are usually looking for him too. How cool would it be to find him in your own ranks! The serial killer wouldn't run over either faction if they need to kill them all. They would widdle each side down. And knowing what the Scum are up to on top of being able to kill either side (let along their identities) it sociopathic! Just like a serial killer. And when it's down to six people and the Scum have investigated the other Townies and none of them are the Serial Killer. And in this version? What if the tree stump was Scum? :sweet: Was that possible? Was the tree stump a passed around role? All of that weirdness would've been a nice twist.

What's a twist?
A twist is something, unprecedented, which occurs in a new game. It's OK to do something new. Not every game needs to use the same game mechanic as the game before it. How boring? Shouldn't we be challenged and encouraged to grow and learn? Hearing people say that games shouldn't include things that are unprecedented make me wish I was conversing with a wall as I'd probably get further.

So, why didn't it go the way you expected?
Because Shadows knew Dragonator was the Serial Killer before he was converted. There's no subtle mystery to slowly reveal now. That was the fun twist. With that already revealed, the subtle twist is completely gone. They had to figure out that he was the serial killer but they already knew. It's hard to have them in a game together because of that. Pandora and Rufus say "There's no way we can't reveal our sides to each other" so I have them as verified Townies. They both know the other is Town and Rufus is the backup of Pandora's role (the only role with a backup). I balance this (at Foog's suggestion) by making Rufus a Miller. Perfect. That's balanced. Hosts, you need to treat Draggy and Shadows like a married couple.

Wait, wait, wait. You even admitted you know they don't just claim to each other.
Oh, right, right. They get on chat and accuse each other of being Scum and then poke and threaten each other and joke until they finally truly reveal their roles to each other or if they don't reveal it, then they know they're hiding something and they threaten, blah blah blah. Here we are, on Day Two and the Godfather already knows who the Serial Killer is and the Serial Killer knows that the Godfather is, at least Scum.

But Shadows knew the vig and the tree stump by Day Two as well. Eskallon claimed to Scuba. Lots of people know each other's roles on Day Two.
Oh, really? Who does the serial killer usually reveal themselves to on Day Two??? Yes, Townies were out there claiming. But even if Shadows and Draggy weren't the Godfather and the Serial Killer, I've noticed they have a tendency to know each others' roles earlier than other people may be claiming to each other. And why would the Scum convert so early? Why not wait and find a trusted Townie to convert. They investigate Draggy Night One and get the result "Corruptible" and Bam! time to convert him. :wacko: Why?? Where's the strategy there? I suppose there could be some strategy in it but not much was being said as far as reasoning goes. Most of the conversation went on without the rest of the Scum Team's knowledge and the discussion I did see about converting early named a lot more people with, in my opinion, better reasons than Draggy.

So, you're blaming them for this?
Kind of. We're playing a game, so I would imagine we're all in this together. We're a gaming community here. Perhaps we can all try to be nicer to each other with things. I can admit that I could've done some things better, but at the time everything was thoroughly reviewed and discussed. A lot of thought and planning went into this. This discussion of what to do with the conversion spanned more than a 24 hour period. A lot of that was waiting for people in other time zones to respond. The big wrench in this was that Shadows already knew Draggy was the Serial Killer.

So, then you let it continue. So you're not blaming yourself, why?
I didn't know Shadows knew about Dragonator's role until after I gave them the Night Action results that he was converted. So, Draggy had already been added to the Scum PM, all the Action were in, the day thread was open and on its way. And this is where it became really confounding and stressful for me. Of course, the cool and arguably unlikely case of the Scum converting the Serial Killer, had come to fruition and the plan to let it be revealed slowly either by design or by subtle host clues was blown out of the water in seconds. Emotionally, I didn't handle it well at all. I threw a fit, an absolute temper tantrum to Shadows in private. And he handled that pretty well. I admitted later to seeing five year olds handle their tempers better. It was a bad day in the history of Hinckley. But, it was at that point, I decided to lie to Shadows and tell him Dragonator didn't have a role, that he was Vanilla Town.

You lied?
Yup. That's what I said. I had no clue he knew and he didn't present it that way. He just said "Can't Draggy do more than that? Where's his role PM? Post his role PM." To which I said "No" and then it all went downhill from there. I even doctored a fake role PM just to shut Shadows up. Why the fuck was he asking? And I was afraid my reaction had given Dragonator away, so I felt it was my duty as host to make up for that for Dragonator. Then Dragonator tells me he already told Shadows that he was the Serial Killer. Great. Whose game is this? I realize at this point that particular mechanic is pretty much fucked. So, here are my options:

Leave it the way it is
I've already lied to Shadows, apologized to his team for it and told him that discussing Draggy's win condition any further would be "wildly inappropriate". Not to mention, at this point, he's still asking me why my story doesn't match Draggy's and I say, "Don't ask me about it again. I just won't discuss it." Or something like that. My brain is finally back in my head. The stress of work had boiled to a breaking point, so there was only one temper tantrum needed (which, personally, was really odd, because I usually don't respond to things that way). I PM Draggy and tell him he's on his own and talk to Foog about it and we decide it's the best way to move forward. This is also when we talk about other Night Actions revealing Draggy, at least to the Town, and adding clues to help the Scum figure it out.

Don't allow the conversion
For this to have happened, I would've had to have been aware that Shadows knew Dragonator's role before I added Draggy to the writeboard, the Scum PM, gave him and the Scum their Night Action results. This is a completely impossible solution because the cart was before the horse. I had no indication that Shadows was aware Draggy was the Serial Killer before the conversion had already taken place. I couldn't ask Draggy to pretend he didn't see the Scum names or ask the Scum to forget that Draggy was the Serial Killer.

Mod kill Draggy, Shadows or both
Yay. Wouldn't that be fun for everyone? :sceptic:

Take away Dragonator's killing Action
Wouldn't that be fun for CorneliusMurdock? "Dear Portia, the Lumberjack feels better now. He's no problem any more. Don't worry about it. You're a Vanilla Townie now. Woof woof." Let's take away Cornelius's role because Shadows and Draggy blabbed to each other? :hmpf: No. Lies have already been told. It was a huge bump in the road, but it seems to have equalized.

So, to sum up; Yes, I'm aware that the decision is somewhat unfair to the Scum. But, on Day Three they have plenty of time to figure it out. Like Foog said, I really didn't expect the Scum to ever trust Draggy. I half expected them to kill him on Night Three. The Scum still have five players to work with, the watcher is still out there, the tree stump is still out there, the vig, a tracker, the inventor, etc. There is plenty to balance what is, in and of itself, a balancing measure. The Scum know they have two kills. That's not ideal. That's really aggravating, especially when they end up with three. Here's where you can imagine the big difference: The Scum don't know they've converted the serial killer and they're trying to figure out who's doing it. You can bet they'd pick up on the clues if they were still looking for the serial killer. That would've been cool. But those roles that could also catch Draggy are quickly killed off when Shadows start influencing WhiteFang's decisions.

This "confusion" could've been avoided and the Scum could've figured this out had Shadows not gone after me and gone after Draggy instead. This is not said to provoke Shadows or insult him or try to publicly goad him into an argument. This is concluding the game, for myself, analyzing how it went and letting everyone involved in the game know what happened. It's interesting to share the experience and it can help future hosts balance their games. This is only my experience and my opinion. Shadows asked for Draggy's original role PM. (How often does this happen during a conversion? It had never happened to me before) I answer "No." Instead of continuing to pester me, he should've focused on Draggy. The host is not the place to find this information. I really should've ignored him. He was really persistent, but I've dealt with worse. I've said my defenses were down. I was really at the end of my rope with stress from work, etc. This situation was the straw that broke the camel's back. I handled it in a weird fashion since I didn't know Shadows already knew Draggy was the Serial Killer. Shadows didn't even tell me he knew, he just kept playing this game, which I honestly didn't need. Draggy finally told me the next day and at that point, I was just totally annoyed with both of them. This took up the greater portion of a day. And I agree that a host should not be giving out confusing information. I really wish I would've just ignored Shadows. However, once that proved it wasn't going to be the case, I had to work with what had already been said and done. Were the clues too subtle? Maybe. But anything more than subtle in these games, is glaringly obvious.

Balance
I'm happy with it. On Day Seven, there are seven people left and anyone could win it at that point. Town wasn't likely to win at that point, since Quarryman is more set decoration than a Townie...

Clues that Draggy was not converted
I'll get to that when I analyze the Scum team.

I've been typing this for two hours. I am done talking about this aspect of it. I have closure on it in my mind and I think it's totally justified. I understand being upset about it, but we can all make adjustments to how we approach things in the future to avoid something similar happening again. It may sound like I'm being harsh to Shadows and Draggy, but that is not my intention. I'll analyze the Scum Team next and I'll be relatively gentle with them as the loss did sting, I know. And they really did play an awesome game outside of the Serial Killer complication. However, I will be ripping the Town a new one as well. I think this all fair in Mafia conclusion. Feel free to rip me back. I guarantee I can take it. But seriously, I'm doing my best to be constructive and will continue to do so when I analyze the individual players. I only ask that extend the same courtesy in return. Thanks.

I'll update this post tomorrow or the next day with the other players analyses. Puzzle answers and winners will come last. I want to get the harder work out of the way so I can conclude this.

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#109 Dragonator

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:27 AM

Mmhmm, the one problem with that is that if I had not told Shadows I was the serial killer, he would have found out later and killed me for it if I was not properly converted as I feared. So I logically made an early claim to him after I found out I could be converted, which eliminated the possibility of surprise later. Not my fault you assumed I wouldn't think strategically. :laugh:

I did ask for a clarification on what would happen if I was converted and didn't end up getting an answer, so I covered all my bases and was as honest as I could be with my potential new allies. A good piece of advice for hosts: don't always assume you know everything! Your players do talk to each other in private, and they will find out things from those discussions.

I would also strongly advise against a group scum PM in games which have usurper roles or roles similar to that. It isn't really even necessary in games without to be fair. If each scum member had an individual role PM, there would never have been an issue. Scum can make their own PM for discussion, or use those silly writeboards, there isn't any need for a group PM with the host. Small things, but they are the sort of things which can help avoid conflict or confusion. Personally I don't think it is ever necessary for the entire scum team to see the role PMs of the rest of the team;  role PMs should be private, as a rule.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Of course, the cool and arguably unlikely case of the Scum converting the Serial Killer, had come to fruition and the plan to let it be revealed slowly either by design or by subtle host clues was blown out of the water in seconds.
Never, ever plan to "slowly reveal" a game mechanic or role. Things like that have to happen organically. If there is one thing I think you could still improve on Hinck it's avoiding host interference. You can't always be in control! Let the players do as they will, and if they make a decision that blows a hole in a cool sub-plot you wanted to do, then so be it. That's all part of playing the game; taking risks and seeing if they work out for you. Sandy's little made up night action result is a classic example of that.

Anyway, all theoretical discussion, as all hosts do things differently and have small mistakes that have to be handled by those playing. Doesn't make things invalid, doesn't mean it wasn't a really well hosted game, just means that there are always things to be improved on, adapted, or done differently next time, as with every game we have had on EB.  :thumbup:

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#110 Shadows

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

And why would the Scum convert so early? Why not wait and find a trusted Townie to convert. They investigate Draggy Night One and get the result "Corruptible" and Bam! time to convert him. :wacko: Why?? Where's the strategy there? I suppose there could be some strategy in it but not much was being said as far as reasoning goes.
I usually convert early, there are very good reasons for it that I will not share with the group because I'm scummy like that. :tongue: I will give a hint: converting later in the game tends to cause people to do things that appear suspicious, if the town is paying attention. A good example was Sandy in ISM, we converted her and instantly she wasn't suspicious of us anymore. Remember that, Sandy? :laugh:

In this game it also confused the town about the killings that did or didn't happen, so it had another subtle use.

The question a host has to ask is the only one you're responsible for, why was he corruptible yet not and how does that effect each side? Poorly for both town and scum, practically heaven for the SK. That's one of those red flags that says "balance problem."

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Most of the conversation went on without the rest of the Scum Team's knowledge and the discussion I did see about converting early named a lot more people with, in my opinion, better reasons than Draggy.
We had our own PM without you and I talked to Amy on Steam. Shocking, huh? :laugh:

As for reasoning, I'll put my scum record up against any when it comes to determining the most logical way to do things with the least complication. The only time that doesn't work is when you're also trying to beat a broken mechanic, which is nearly impossible. I've done it before, but not quite as broken as this, which is a shame considering how good the rest of the game was and how it could have been. I've played it out in my head without the conversion and it could have gone to any side, which is how it should have been. It would have complicated things in the middle of the game, but that's how it should have been. With the conversion, it would have taken random luck to end up any other way than it did.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I didn't know Shadows knew about Dragonator's role until after I gave them the Night Action results that he was converted.
Technically, it's none of your business what anyone knows in your game or when, all of your decisions are supposed to have been made already and your influence should be over. The truth is that you want to be so involved that you insert yourself into everything possible from the group scum PM to the writeboard. You can't do that to the town because they don't have a group, but you do it to the dead as well, which encourages them to talk, town or scum alike, and it would be possible for something to accidentally be revealed that way. I dislike the dead board concept. I know you like watching, but is it really a good idea when you end up making unnecessary comments along the way? Some of those comments reinforced the idea that I had been silly to doubt the conversion, something you put a lot of effort into discouraging, in all honesty, both through guilt and insults. I've never minded being insulted, I dislike being guilted tremendously, but ultimately I wouldn't be bothered by either if it hadn't been for the reason it happened.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I realize at this point that particular mechanic is pretty much fucked.
It always was, right from the start. If it had been good, it wouldn't have mattered when or how it was discovered. Instead, it wasted our conversion, gave him too much power, and required far too much deception on your part to be fair to us. At the same time, it was unfair to the town who was not just fighting us, but a SK who knew exactly who to kill to keep things balanced. He also knew exactly who was chasing him because of me, which never would have happened without the conversion being allowed. There was never even a chance for the town to get lucky and have him target the same person as us (or the vig by the time I was influencing him), just massive losses for them nearly every night.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Don't allow the conversion
For this to have happened, I would've had to have been aware that Shadows knew Dragonator's role before I added Draggy to the writeboard, the Scum PM, gave him and the Scum their Night Action results.
It obviously couldn't be undone after it was allowed, that was the wrong time. It never should have been possible in the first place. When we investigated him, we should have been told he couldn't be corrupted, since he really couldn't. Why was it right to lie about that? You were lying before we ever asked a single question. It's like saying we had a naive investigator, yet if we had, the conversion would have just failed, not been a total fake. That's where the whole thing broke down. Again, what we knew or didn't know was none of your business, you shouldn't have even been aware of it, you only had to know the role and how inserting it into the scum would break things for both sides and make a decision never to allow that. That should have been decided before the game started.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Like Foog said, I really didn't expect the Scum to ever trust Draggy.
We investigate and are told corruptible, we convert and are told successful, we're going to believe it, anyone would. Any other result is just wrong. We're scum, it's incredibly rare for us to even get the wrong results of an investigation, but it's unheard of to get a conversion that is a fake.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

The Scum know they have two kills. That's not ideal. That's really aggravating, especially when they end up with three.
Again, none of your business. Impartial. It's an important word to just keep pounding in your head during games. Sometimes everything goes right and one side hits every mark, it isn't any of your business at that point, no matter how much it annoys you. That's what planning is for, to make sure those things can't happen, and even then, they sometimes do. It's the nature of the game.

This game is supposed to be all about setup. You create a scenario, a set of roles and abilities, a guideline for dealing with those and for what will or won't be allowed. Once the game launches, it's hands off. The players control the story from there, choose the direction that things will go in, and are given the chance to determine their own destinies. If everything has been planned properly, whatever they choose to do will have already been considered and the correct response will already exist. Allowing a conversion? Decide who can be converted and who can't by taking the results into account. Would allowing someone to be converted give them or any other group too much advantage or put them at too much disadvantage? Don't allow it. Problem solved.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Here's where you can imagine the big difference: The Scum don't know they've converted the serial killer and they're trying to figure out who's doing it. You can bet they'd pick up on the clues if they were still looking for the serial killer. That would've been cool. But those roles that could also catch Draggy are quickly killed off when Shadows start influencing WhiteFang's decisions.
Or better yet, don't let the scum convert the serial killer and he doesn't know who they are, so not just town but also scum die and everyone tries to figure it out. Letting him be converted removed the part where he had to guess who was on which side to know if he was upsetting the balance and ruining his own plans.

Again, who the scum are influencing is none of the host's business.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

This "confusion" could've been avoided and the Scum could've figured this out had Shadows not gone after me and gone after Draggy instead.
It's not his fault that he was given a broken role and there is no way he could have ever admitted it.

If you had decided before the game that clues would be given, they still should have been, they would have served a slightly different purpose (showing us that we couldn't actually trust the conversion), but they were definitely needed. The argument over the role being inserted and the subsequent lies didn't invalidate our need to a reasonable chance at knowing that we were up against a SK that was hidden by a fake conversion (that phrase shouldn't even exist in mafia). Even calling him a usurper, it isn't uncommon for the target of the usurping to have some knowledge that such a plot exists. The 5/4 then 5/3/1 flower clue near the end was one you told us you did for the town because they thought there were 4 scum and a SK. To me, it just looked like 3 scum (red), a converted scum (dark pink) and the town (white). I might have taken that differently if dark pink had been blue or yellow or something that wasn't close to red, but it's hard to say now. I won't get into the whole thing about picture clues, that's Quarry's job. :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

This is only my experience and my opinion. Shadows asked for Draggy's original role PM. (How often does this happen during a conversion? It had never happened to me before)
This was the first time I ever converted someone and had the host add them to the group PM which included all of our roles clearly spelled out. It was a natural question in that circumstance, no matter what I knew or didn't know.

I'm still very annoyed, I always will be and I don't mind admitting that. This had the potential to be an incredible game but was derailed by something that shouldn't have happened, a fake conversion. It still had some incredible moments.

Notes to hosts:
  • Shadows and Draggy are married. We can finish each others sentences and read each other like a book. If you've planned properly, it won't matter.
  • Don't ever allow a fake conversion, it is unfair to the scum, probably unfair to the town, and helps the fake far too much.
  • Plan for everything. If you have an action in the game, know how it effects any player it could be used on, and in combination with any action it could be used with. If using it on someone creates too much advantage for one side, don't allow it. Look at the grief it will save you.
  • Butt out of the scum and their planning. It isn't for you to know, so don't insert yourself there and certainly don't try to use that to excuse #2 or #3. It was never your business to begin with.
  • Players can't break mechanics if they aren't already faulty in the first place.

So now I'm going to write what I would have written if I could just leave out that ending.

Thank you to the host and everyone that played! It was a challenge and one of the first times that I ever felt bad for manipulating people. I don't know why it got to me in this game, but it did. I had to force myself to stay in character, I really didn't think I played that well in the days themselves, all of my best work was by PM.

That said, I'm going to give a rare tour of my mafia brain. Don't trip on any of the clutter. :wacko:

I play scum in a very specific way and it's a bit of a mental nightmare because it involves throwing in fake tells at random. Different ones at different times, but always planned with a way to excuse them that makes the person pointing them out look scummy. There are only so many ways to do it. Sometimes, they are things I do when I'm town, which I think has gotten me killed more as town than scum, but it's hard playing town or faking playing town. If you're really town, you either know nothing or you know a lot but can't reveal it until you know who to reveal to, and you never really know who to reveal to.

The best tool the scum have is the town, it really is. When you're town and do something stupid, the scum will find a way to use it. Roleclaim on day 1 and the scum will directly or indirectly ride your ass until you're dead, because not only do they know you have a role, but you gave them a way to point at you and say "no townie would do that!" Accuse people too early, scum or town, and we will use it against you. If it does turn out to be a townie you accused, all the better, we'll get them lynched and then blame you for it, it's like a 2 for 1 sale on townies.

The town wants to trust someone, it needs to trust someone. Until a few people are working together, it's rare for any real results to be made against the scum. You want to trust someone, I'll give you someone to trust. It might be me, it might be one of my allies, but it will be someone you definitely shouldn't trust. I probably won't even roleclaim to do it, instead I'll make you convince me that I can trust you. Once you do, I won't make obvious attempts to influence you, I'm not usually in a position where I need to influence you, I usually just want to know what you know. If I know what you know, I can use that a lot more than just using you directly. There are exceptions to that, naturally. Sorry, Fangy. :blush:

My final point is one that I know I forget at times, so it's probably hypocritical for me to remind anyone, but it's just a game. Yes, someone is going to manipulate someone. Good and bad decisions are going to be made, and at times, you're going to absolutely hate someone for what they did, but in the end, they were just playing out the role they were given. There's no good reason to hate the players or hold a grudge, save that for the host, he put us all in that position, the evil bastard. :laugh:

If I ever play again, I've already been told I'll be metagamed out instantly, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time. I'd probably be town and it would hurt you in the long run (unless you're scum), that's how it's always gone in that case. :laugh:

Enough from me. :hmpf:

Shadows is looking for stalkers. Yep, you heard me right. CLICKY!



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#111 Hinckley

Hinckley

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:42 PM

View PostDragonator, on 22 September 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Mmhmm, the one problem with that is that if I had not told Shadows I was the serial killer, he would have found out later and killed me for it if I was not properly converted as I feared. So I logically made an early claim to him after I found out I could be converted, which eliminated the possibility of surprise later. Not my fault you assumed I wouldn't think strategically. :laugh:

I did ask for a clarification on what would happen if I was converted and didn't end up getting an answer, so I covered all my bases and was as honest as I could be with my potential new allies. A good piece of advice for hosts: don't always assume you know everything! Your players do talk to each other in private, and they will find out things from those discussions.
You told me you didn't want the answer before I had a chance to answer. And I'm sorry, who else in their right mind would go to the person they're going to convert and tell them first? :hmpf: Most Townies (or even Serial Killers I would imagine) would reveal someone who came to them saying "I'm Scum and I'm going to convert you." That's the way it should go anyway. I know you weren't a Townie here, but I seem to recall it happening in a previous game. This is my point of the problems your relationship causes for hosts.

I totally understand your point. Don't get me wrong. What you do in private shouldn't matter to me at all. And it wouldn't have, if I had only ignored Shadows. Unfortunately, I let his button-pushing get to me and I pushed back and then tried to make up for potentially giving you away. I was trying to fix what I thought I had messed up by responding to him when he was pestering me. I was really disappointed in myself for "getting involved" and was trying to fix what I viewed as my error. Why he was playing a game with me, since he already knew full well what your role is, is far beyond my realm of comprehension. These are all points I thoroughly discussed with you as it was happening.

View PostDragonator, on 22 September 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Never, ever plan to "slowly reveal" a game mechanic or role. Things like that have to happen organically. If there is one thing I think you could still improve on Hinck it's avoiding host interference. You can't always be in control! Let the players do as they will, and if they make a decision that blows a hole in a cool sub-plot you wanted to do, then so be it. That's all part of playing the game; taking risks and seeing if they work out for you. Sandy's little made up night action result is a classic example of that.
Ask Foog. There were a lot of places for interference that I ignored. And I've already said I should've ignored Shadows. And I'm not supposed to interfere but you expected me to explain to you what would happen if you were converted? In this situation, I was already at my wit's end and exhausted as it took a long time to get the day thread going that day, on top of stress from real life. Your buddy Shadows kept pushing me in a group PM and then started calling the game poorly planned and then started insulting me. I didn't respond to that well, at all. But isn't there something for you, the games moderator, to say to Shadows here?

View PostDragonator, on 22 September 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Anyway, all theoretical discussion, as all hosts do things differently and have small mistakes that have to be handled by those playing. Doesn't make things invalid, doesn't mean it wasn't a really well hosted game, just means that there are always things to be improved on, adapted, or done differently next time, as with every game we have had on EB.  :thumbup:
I agree. And I've admitted there are things I could improve. However, hosts can be introspective as well as players. And that's why in analyzing my game, I'm saying Shadows should not go pestering the host when he doesn't get his way.

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#112 JimBee

JimBee

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:00 PM

If I can just add my opinion, from a perspective outside of the situation with the SK and Scum...

Personally, I see a lot of involvement from the host to the players involved, and vice versa. The players are pestering the host for more information when he is obliged to not give it, and the host is influenced by private discussions between Shadows and Dragonator in his decisions about the conversion. I'm not talking about what was set to happen, no matter what, with the conversion before the game even started, I'm talking about the decisions made after.

It is my personal opinion that in a mafia game, the host and players should have a large degree of separation. "Because they claimed to each other" should not affect anything whatsoever in the game. Maybe that's just my style as a host, and maybe it's less fun, but I think that the host should give the information that he or she is supposed to give, and only that, regardless of anything the players did without the host's knowledge.

That being said, I can understand that you were under a lot of stress at the time, Hinck, and that you do regret lying or getting as involved as you did. I do appreciate how you tried to mend it afterwards. In the future, I would just suggest that you maintain that level of separation with the players. The same goes for people pestering the host for more information. I can vouch that it is extremely annoying and stressful to have that happen. As a host I am definitely tempted to interfere and give the information players want (especially if they ask really nicely or when I can see them stress about the game... Hinck in Werewolf).  :laugh:

And also, I definitely agree that criticizing the host midgame is absolutely inappropriate. Wait until the end, have some faith that the host knows more about the mechanics than you, and don't ruin it. This doesn't just apply to anyone in this game, but any other game. I know it's happened before.

And that's about as softly as I can put it. I considered not saying anything and staying out of it, and as someone who wasn't directly involved maybe I didn't "know" anything, or "see it for myself." But I think it's only fair that I (and anyone else) got to say something about it. Criticize me for it, whatever. I just hope that we can take a step back and actually learn from what happened, rather than just argue about it (which seems to be happening, fortunately).  :thumbup:

On a lighter note, the game was very entertaining to watch. Everyone on the dead writeboard were on the edges of their seats towards the end, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The whole SK-converted-scum-but-not-really thing reminded me of the movie Miller's Crossing. If you haven't seen it yet I highly recommend it. It's also very applicable to mafia.  :laugh:

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#113 Hinckley

Hinckley

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:18 PM

View PostShadows, on 22 September 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I usuall... case. :laugh:

Enough from me. :hmpf:
I did not get into the scum planning at all. You're describing some sort of control freak here. I told you guys to discuss it wherever you wanted but I appreciated seeing what was going on and left it up to you. While I have opinions on what happened I never stepped in and tried to tell you stop influencing WhiteFang or anything else I'm commenting on. You can tell me all of that stuff isn't my business, but show me one place where I made it my business. I'm going to express my opinion on it, regardless. But nowhere did I try to stop you from doing what you were doing, nor did I give the Town any clues that you were the one doing it. I had plenty of opportunities. I even changed something in the pictures you imagined was implicating you when you asked me to. I barely made any comments on the writeboard, mostly to answer questions you guys were asking.

Getting involved on the planning? Where? Where did I get involved in this game? Besides what happened at the conversion, as I've fully described in minute detail. Did you even see how it would've run differently if you would've just left me alone that night? You want me to stay out of it but you pester me and pester me and pester and poke and insult, in front of your team and try and try and try to draw me into it, but it's my fault for getting involved?

When CorneliusMurdock and WhiteFang both decided to air their thoughts on the game in their role PMs and both wondered out loud if they should be trusting Shadows, I answered neither one of those PMs. That was a great opportunity for Horrible Hinckley the Nefarious Meddler to sell you out, once again, to the Town and ruin your whole game for you. Did I give them any clues that they couldn't trust you? Nope. Not even the slightest. Obviously. :hmpf:

I discussed the implications of the conversion with Foog and with your buddy Draggy. And I was advised by both of them to go with the decision I made. You are upset because you lost and there were things you can have done to avoid it. I've fully explained my thought process. So thanks, both of you, for all of your great advice on not being able to control the players, but show me one instance-outside of being pushed around about the conversion-that I tried to control what the players were doing in this game?

View PostJimButcher, on 22 September 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

If I can just add my opinion, from ...to watch. Everyone on the dead writeboard were on the edges of their seats towards the end, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. The whole SK-converted-scum-but-not-really thing reminded me of the movie Miller's Crossing. If you haven't seen it yet I highly recommend it. It's also very applicable to mafia.  :laugh:
I appreciate, more than anything, the opinions of those not directly involved, so thank you for adding a thorough analysis of the issues presented.

What you say, and it seems Draggy and Shadows have said too, about "they claimed to each other" not being able to effect the mechanics, is totally true and I agree with it. Had they claimed to each other, and left me out of it, it would've gone fine and Shadows would've known for sure that Draggy was the Serial Killer and moved on to deal with it how he saw fit. Since all he was asking me was for Draggy's role PM, and I wasn't aware why, I said "no" and he should've left me alone after that and taken no for an answer, especially when I came back the second or third time and said "No!" I never use size 7 text. Ignoring him that night would've solved this whole thing. That's my fault. I went way too far in creating the fake role PM, especially considering that was the next day after I'd had a chance to calm down. I was afraid I had possibly effected Draggy's ability to achieve his win condition. Little did I know that Draggy had already done that to himself. This all would have been similarly avoided had Shadows left me the hell alone.

And Shadows, that's what you should be looking at: what your actions did to affect this outcome. I realized what I had done right away and sought advice from Foog and Draggy and reached a decision.

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#114 Darkdragon

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:25 PM

If I were pestering the host for information before I die, I'd feel like it was cheating if he actually gave me the info. Especially if I know it's information a host normally would not give to a player.  :shrug_confused:

#115 Hinckley

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM

Player Analysis (continued)

The Cultists
Overall, you guys really did a fantastic job with this game. You avoided suspicion, deflected suspicion, successfully pulled off a meat shield gambit. There was so much brilliant play from you guys I was really impressed. I know you guys felt you worked well as a team, and the work done proved very successful, but the teamwork is where I have my criticism for you guys. This is just my opinion and something to consider next time you play. Also, this is based of what I saw of your teamwork on the writeboard. I was told that's the only place you were planning, which is why I was originally horrified by your activity on Day One. I really mean it, and this goes for future Scum teams in my games, when I say that you can opt to not use the writeboard I started. I honestly do not care. I like to see what's happening for my own entertainment, but when I said you can do whatever you want, I fully meant it and there was no reason to sneak off to other places. What would I have done? I know I've been a bit of hyper control freak in the past, but I'm learning and trying to change every time I host, so please take me at face value of the things I say to you. If you want to plan in a place I can't see, do it. Don't waste your time putting on an act in the writeboard. :wacko: In the future, I'll just let the Scum start a writeboard if they wish and resign myself to not seeing what they're planning. Just take Night Actions, wait for the deadline. Maybe even allow the dead to start their own as well. Whatevs. Hosting can be a lonely job. :cry_sad:

Anyway, based on what I saw there, the teamwork seemed to mostly be Shadows taking a strong lead and you guys filling out his plan in an excellent and highly efficient manner. Wow, you guys really wanted to work together and really did take his plan and run with it. So the teamwork was more of a team with a very strong leader, where everyone else allowed him to do what he wanted. That's great. Shadows has a vast amount of experience. He really knows how to weave a web and sometimes all you have to do is let him and then step up to the plate when you do your part. There were days when, though, when Danny would postulate about 5 different things, make several posts in a row, and then nobody would respond to his questions or ideas. Shadows would come in and make a blanket announcement about what he had done that day and what needed to be done next and the rest of the team would jump on it and run. I'm not saying this is a bad way to do things. Not at all. It clearly worked. Amazingly well. But it does help to possibly listen to more than one point of view. It appeared like a lot was happening in a private conversation between Shadows and Draggy, apparently with Amy opinion thrown in from Steam, whatever that is. That's nice, but it seemed Danny was left out. Maybe Scouty too. Perhaps a better way to encompass team work is helping the new players or sharing experience or including them in all aspects. Danny decided to press for Amy's conviction the day they were convicting Cecilie. Shadows dropped in and said something funny but with an underlying patronizing tone like "Look at you guys strategizing and being Scummy on your own" or whatever. :laugh: It was funny because Shadows is the master, but I did think there was an underlying truth to it...

Also, maybe you guys could've figured out the clues to Draggy's win condition if you weren't letting Shadows' proclamation of "Hinck must be fucking up his poorly planned game again" drown out your own ability to analyze what was happening. I know there's a huge controversy over the need to look for clues after I updated the role PM, but there was opportunity for the three other Scum members to go "Why is Hinck freaking out about a simple request?" Four people to mull that over for the rest of the game.

And really, to beat a dead horse, which I'm so good at, here's the timeline:
  • Shadows pesters Hinckley
  • Hinckley throws a fit about being pestered simply because he does not want to be pestered, especially with insult to the game or his own intelligence
  • Shadows takes this fit to mean Hinckley is hiding something about Dragonator's role
  • Hinckley doesn't realize this is what Shadows is taking it as, nor does he know that Dragonator has already told Shadows what his role is. Why is Shadows still pestering Hinckley if he already knows what Draggy's role is? :look: That's probably the best question. What the hell was all of that for? :hmpf_bad:
  • Hinckley thinks he's given Dragonator's win condition away and is mortified for responding to Shadows at all and tries to fix it by doctoring the fake role PM.
  • Hinckley finds out Dragonator had already roleclaimed to Shadows and tells them both to go back to their game and leave him alone. And at this point, Shadows was still questioning if he should believe what I had told him.
Everything else I've said about the two of them being married and me being surprised about them roleclaiming to each other and breaking the mechanic is completely secondary to those six points. My opinion on their gameplay is outside of that. The mechanic should've worked had I not responded to Shadows. Shadows would've known something was wrong and dealt with it. That would've worked. My fault for responding to his hounding. His fault for hounding. Not the rest of the Scum team's fault that our relationship is dysfunctional. If Draggy and Shadows are married, I'm Shadows's ex that got stuck with the kids. I'm sorry that your game suffered for it and you were denied the win in the end. I really thought there was enough there for someone to pick up on something being wrong. Playing well or playing hard doesn't always mean a win. Look at me and Rick in Bloodbrick I. Look at WhiteFang in this one. People play hard and lose sometimes. I'm sorry it happened to you. I really liked having you guys in the game and hope you would all play one of my games again. I can guarantee this won't happen again.

Shadows
I've spent enough time analyzing that one day of your game, so can I please tell you how awesome you did otherwise? It was so exciting to have you back in the saddle and just doing what you do best. Scheming and such. You really picked the right people and got control of the right roles and said the right things to get everyone to do what you wanted them to. And when it seemed you couldn't fully control someone, like Zepher, you got them to do what you needed them to do and killed them off at the right time. It was a diabolical plot and you orchestrated it very well. Have I mentioned you should leave the host alone? :laugh: You're smart enough to know something was wrong there and had I stayed out of it, you would've been right and taken care of that as well. I really hope you can see the mistakes I made and understand what I was thinking. I also hope you can see what I did to solve it and what you could've done to avoid the situation as well. Have I said that a million times too? Either way, it was great to see you in a positive Mafia mood again, which is why I dreaded posting the conclusion. :cry_sad: Everyone feels bad watching the way it concluded because they all know how hard you played and how well you did. I do wish you would try to include your whole team, but I understand it's easier than letting too many cooks into the kitchen. You're so used to side-dealing, you seem to think you should do it within the Scum team and with the host. You always make the game interesting, though. I always like having you in the game, because you're going to play it. I think you should expect some things to change. The early days of Mafia were great, but things do evolve. Game mechanics and hosts wanting to try new things make the games evolve the same way your friendship with Draggy has evolved and effects the game differently every time. Learn to be flexible and look for sneaky changes. And if you find one, roll with it. Don't attack the host. Have I mentioned that yet? :blush: Sorry, for some reason I'm on the defensive. SOme of your "Rah rah! Town!" posts made me vomit. All this talk about the win condition has over-shadowed your ludicrous endgame gambit. :laugh: What the fuck. "Dear Serial Killer, ..." And speaking of the win condition thing, is that letter a bit ironing in retrospect? :look:

I'm disappointed to hear you think the Team win is a bad change. Makes me a bit worried about your view of Mafia. I won't open that can of worms, but I'm surprised that people don't see these games as team games when it's Town vs. Scum. Is Amy supposed to lose when he selflessly sacrifices himself for a meat shield gambit? That allows you to dupe Flitwick and Quarryman. Is Amy supposed to be considered a "loser" for allowing his team to have that benefit? Is Pie supposed to lose when he decides to bodyguard the most vulnerable Townie when he can just commute and survive? Does that make him a loser when he takes that self-risk for the benefit of the team?

One of these days, we'll play that game that has no issues. We'll play it together and we'll have fun. We'll both find the things we can do to achieve that and it'll happen. I really want that. We get closer every time. :blush:

Masked Builder
You didn't get to play very much but I would advise you to stay away from fish left out in the open on strange spikey plate type thingies or whatever.

Scouty
You panic but you are successful often. It was so weird to watch the evolution of your accusations and your weird defenses. Never say "That's a fair cop." again. Really, what the fuck does it even mean? :wacko: Scuba made some valid accusation and you latched onto the word "consistent". When you said, "Isn't it good to be consistent?" when he was saying you were consistently agreeing with every defense, I really expected every player to vote for you. And then how did they forget about you for a day? I'm not even sure your first day turn as "mediator" between two arguing Townies was a plan to get the whole Town to trust you, but somehow it worked. How did the Town figure you were clear when Petey came up as Town? Maybe it was because they thought you would only defend her if you both were Scum, but your reactions and the attempt to stay neutral and help two people appear Town was just all so weird. Your defense on the day you were lynched made me cringe a couple times too, but for the most part, you did much better than on Day One. You are always fun to play with. And I appreciate the energy you bring to Day threads. You've got a good sense of humor and it adds a lightness to some of the more crabby elements of the game.

iamded
I love you. Way to deflect suspicion by rambling and shrugging things off. I love your defenses. They all seem so effortless and somewhat looney. You did an excellent job playing for the team just like Scouty and Danny. Especially by allowing yourself to be sacrificed for the meat shield. And purposely getting penalty votes so the Town couldn't turn the lynch over. Did all you Townies catch that? He did that on purpose. I'm so glad I knew ahead of time. I might've actually interfered and sent a secret PM "Amy, you didn't 'neigh'. I'll give you one warning but don't get yourself voted out. It's already going to be close today... Don't tell anyone I sent this. :look:" Then you would've had to do it three times. Great acting job. You even asked how long it takes for posts to merge. :laugh: You are so much fun.

Dannylonglegs
Like I said, I am likely to put you in one of my games every time you sign up. I've liked you ever since Red Moon I and I thinks it's because you displayed the most patience with the on-again, off-again nonsense and then again, with Red Moon II. You did a really nice job on this, especially being the noobiest of the Scum team. You had a lot of great ideas, some of which would've gotten you killed. Others which were very clever. I would've liked to have seen you just go with some of your ideas and take the risk. You seemed to want everyone else to approve every move you made, even down to posting some posts on the writeboard first and waiting for proofreading. This affected your activity a bit as sometimes people wouldn't respond and you would sit there reading the thread and waiting. This is sometimes a Scum-tell and to be avoided. Watching the thread and not posting looks Scummy. Didn't matter here though. You never got a vote, I don't think. Thank you for your ridiculous amount of dedication considering you had just moved into college the weekend this started. Sorry I was hounding you about participation. :blush: You truly are a badass for contributing as much as you did. And really good job on strategizing and implementation of the Scum plan. Some of those things wouldn't have worked had you not played it right in public, specifically the meat shield gambit. It is something to watch, for both you and Shadows if this happens again, that you seemed a little too sure that Horace would come up as Scum. You actually not so bad, but Shadows was blatant. :laugh:

The Lumberjack
Dragonator
You are not Scum so I've made you a separate heading all your own. :tongue: You are probably the best at deflecting suspicion. Like Amy, you shrug it off well but it's not in the goofy manner he does it. You just throw a quiet logic back at the suspicion and it works very well. And you play the same game as Scum or Town, so who the fuck knows??? :laugh: You can certainly count well because you got the numbers right. You stayed home the night you needed to and kept the right person in the end. So, what did you think about your win condition being you vs. two other players, being given the win. I won't discuss where I've picked that up as apparently the point is arguable and I'm not interested in any more of that. But do you think that makes sense for a one man faction? We've talked about your view of the balance of the game, in private. Care to share that with the rest of the community? I think you did a nice job. What was the game like for you? Where were the risks? Where did you slip up? Was it much easier for you because I seemed to set Shadows doubts at rest (although he was still questioning it when I told him to stop asking)? Come on now, you won. So spill about the game. Tell us what you went through. I didn't really get to see much of your game, because you didn't need to make your moves until Day Six. As a sidenote from our earlier discussion, I'd like to add that a "slow reveal" of clues about your role would've worked, especially if it was through Townie Night Actions finding you. It's the same way the Scum are slowly revealed to the Town or the Town Night Actions are revealed to the Scum. Where do you guys come up with these arbitrary "shouldn't"s? :hmpf:

Onto...

The Villagers
:facepalm: :wall: So, you've seen a lot of my harsh comments in the daily notes I kept. There was a lack of cohesion amongst Villagers, or so it seemed from my perspective. It is a bit hard to gain any traction when you're being taken out three at a time, though. Overall, I think the mentality seemed to be "let's vote out the newer players." I can't be sure and it's only from my perspective but our community seemed to be a little cliquish with the first couple of day's votes. :blush: That may seem like a heavy accusation, but it's just an observation and perfectly natural to happen in a close-knit community that expands and contracts at odd intervals. You guys were really in a position to turn it around almost every day. You guys had opportunities to make the right lynches and there was a very odd trend. People making accusations getting lynched. Scum rarely come out and make flat out bold accusations against other players unless it's getting toward the end and the know they have some Town support and have the ability to risk it. Some people, Cecilie specifically, were making valid and completely accurate accusations and I couldn't really see what was so suspicious about Villagers voicing their opinions.

The Town has a great first night with the vig snagging a Cultist. The subsequent nights are...not as lucky for him. WhiteFang, don't beat yourself up. We all make mistakes and I know you had good reasons to do what you did. Don't let it get you down and keep trying in the future. Every disappointment can be a learning experience. The Town wastes some Actions on ScubaCarrot ... for the first three days. Dude is just sitting there at home, eating his banana and all these Actions are flying at him...

For the most part, mini-pockets of trust were starting to form...but the Scum having three killers at their disposal broke that up pretty quickly.

Unintentionally, every character with a black torso is Scum. :blush:

Ricecracker
It didn't even seem like you were playing. :hmpf: It's like you didn't even sign up. It's like you turned down the invitation.

Waterbrick Down
You barely got to play but you were on your way to forming a good Town block. Caution is good so don't kick yourself for not talking to Pandora. Investigators can be tricky, especially with paranoid enhancers or framers out there. I am certainly one who believes in "Verify, verify, verify". I may have said it somewhere before. So I encourage such caution. My notes are based on an outside perspective, so take them with a grain of salt. Not sure why WhiteFang decided to target you, but I was disappointed you were taken out so early. I think you do a great job in these games and I would've liked to have had you along for the whole ride. You made good choices for targets. Verifying Pandora and Scubacarrot would've gotten you a nice strong strategic Town block to work with. Sorry for booing you on the writeboard and then not explaining. I was more booing the idea that it's easier for other players to do the work. Boooo!!! to that idea. :blush:

Rick
:cry_sad: I think you were taken out before Shadows starting whispering to Fangy so I'm not sure why Fangy and Cornelius found you so suspicious. Zepher blocked you as well. You were just being Scummy, I suppose. You're one of my favorites, due to the fact that we've been through so much together, but I didn't get to see a lot out of you since your time was cut so short. You were active in the day thread which is nice because it's what the Town needs. You have a great mind for this and were working on things, so I'm sure you would've been an asset to the Town block eventually.

Sandy
Lynch All Liars That being said, it was a successful gambit. The Scum don't know you're lying and Amy was pretty active at night so it caused a bit of a scramble. However, if he'd have been Town, you would've just gotten yourself killed. But you were dead already. :sceptic: I agree with Lynch All Liars, but I also like that you were being aggressive and trying to make progress for the Town.

Bob
Hi Bob. You didn't get to do much in this game. I know you responded to the fact that you were inactive. The Serial Killer took you out so there's really nothing to be said about your strategy doing you in. You, like Shadows, need to learn why it's a team game. It's not  you vs. the Scum, it's Town vs. the Scum. You need to understand that to be successful at Mafia. Survival is not the way to win unless your win condition is surviving to the end.

Rufus
The Town's last hope! I was so excited that you had a tangible result that was going to reveal a Scum. It really gave the Town hope. Eventually, it didn't, but it was an excellent chance. I was surprised you didn't come out with a long final post blasting Shadows. I saw you reading the previous days for hours and then got a PM from you analyzing the pictures. :cry_sad: I was so disappointed. No clues in the pictures this time. Nothing to save you. :cry_sad: It would've been nice to have a behavioral analysis of Shadows for the remaining Townies to look at once you were dead. It also would've helped them to know that you were the tracker. Your death really would have implicated Shadows in that case. The way it was left, Shadows had the opportunity to say some phantom someone was lying to you. But, you had a nice methodical game going. You were putting evidence together, learning who to trust. It was a slow burn versus the steamroller kill trifecta the Scum were working with. Eskallon and Pie figured you were the Towniest of Town and worthy of protecting. Unfortunately, that was the last thing both of them did. :look: So, the only Town you were left with were the Townies that didn't trust you...and wanted you dead. :sceptic: Excellent effort, though. You went down fighting. I love that.


Everyone: Why did you think Rufus could be Scum after Pandora had been revealed as Town? I think the remaining players don't live with wives. You guys are saying it can't be done again, but I think if you wouldn't have said anything we could've gotten away with it. Pandora and Rufus can't not reveal their roles to each other. So they were confirmed to each other in separate characters. I did throw Rufus's name back when he was originally selected to be the Watcher since Pandora was already the Motivator. Imagine that? :hmpf: I wouldn't have let that happen. Anyway, I have two other ways for you two to potentially play together. But, now there's kind of a beacon on the issue. People will know your affiliations are the same (or will they? What's the third option? :look:) Rufus, what do you think about being the Miller? That was another way I kept these two mini-masons balanced.

Tamamono
Giving up after you were lynched kind of screwed the Villagers, especially since you were janitored. I was disappointed you gave up and left. I wish you had shown your typical Tammo-fighting-spirit. Where'd it go? You were funny in the day threads. Your roleplaying and jokes were really cracking me up.

WhiteFang
:wub_drool: I just love you so much. So, this critique is coming from a place of love. Like I said, don't beat yourself up. It's a game. JimB's right in that you can be too trusting. Look at the day thread and listen to what others are saying. Be careful of crafty people like Shadows who manipulate you into doing what they want and make it seem like it's your decision. I know he's really protective of you and doesn't want me saying he controlled you...but he did. He's persuasive and knows what you want to hear and even convinces himself he's not controlling you. Also, I know you've been busy so I worry just a bit that you might be relying on other people to sway you in the right direction. I know that when we've worked together, you have a tendency to just check in and see who to target. Mafia does take a bit of time to analyze things for yourself. Otherwise, you're susceptible to being swayed in the wrong direction. You're a busy person with a great heart and people will take advantage of it. Nothing against Shadows for doing it. He's Scum, that's the point of the game. He's supposed to do that to you. So, if you can, please tell me why you still didn't suspect Shadows after Rufus's death. I understand if you're too upset, but I encourage you to talk about it. Losing the game or being duped by Shadows or even making the wrong decisions are all not things to be ashamed of. We've all been there. We'll all be there again. It's all good. We're here to support you. :thumbup:

JimButcher
I was annoyed when they chose you! I loved the idea of Ernie and I loved that you played him really well and had fun doing it. You were also the watcher and you were more active than I remember you being in Steampunk. I thought you were going to help lead the Town this time. Sure, you trusted Scouty, which was a mistake, but that was also a possibility to eventually uncover him. Seeing that he was targeted by Scum was quite a conundrum. Most of the reasons Scum targets people are bad things. Paranoid Gun Owner was a clever possibility and good analysis. But, you missed the figure behind the garbage can in the picture. (little secret: I added him later as I had meant him to be there but got lazy posting that day. I added him pretty quickly, but still, nobody should be upset with themselves for missing that as it wasn't there at first. :blush: ) I liked having you in this game and I'm sorry to have lost you before you really had a chance to make an impact.

Pandora
Nooooooooooooooo!!!! :cry_sad: Losing you was awful because you were in such a great position to lead. You had the protector on you and you had a cool Action! And it's all because of the stupid caveat that whoever Cornelius was sleeping with when the Lumberjack found him would be caught in the cross swinging. Who made up that stupid rule? Whoever did, it's not his fault. Blame Cornelius. Eskallon tried to protect you that night but he got blocked. You bring a great energy to the game with your humor and roleplaying, enhanced beautifully by you and Rufus playing the same game. You were another high hope for the Town. How awful to lose you, Rick and Cornelius all on the same night! I was like :look: Rut-Ro. All hell's breaking loose. Which is why I named that day "All Hell's broke loose." I quickly threw you into as many night interludes and placards as I could to make up for the fact that you were about to be killed. Your Night Actions were very entertaining. Thank you for that. :wub: You kept saying "Don't let me die" and I kept thinking "She has nothing to worry about" then Cornelius sent his Action in. It was the last one received for that night. I was like "Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck!" Hopefully you get to play longer as Gilbert :blush: in III.

Quarryman
I think you have a thick skin so I apologize for calling you worthless and set decoration. :blush: Here's why, though: In this game and Baritones 3, the Scum were making a pretty major gambit and you didn't know enough to catch it. Not that you were duped, but that you weren't paying close enough attention to catch it. This is just my opinion. I have no idea what you're doing behind the scenes, but in the day thread you say things like "This is so confusing" or "I wish I could remember what's happened in the previous days." Your statements make me believe you're not engaged in the game. I'm inferring that you may just be reading the posts with votes. Is that accurate? When you say you can't remember what's happened, does that mean you can't go back and read it? Yes, I can see you being confused by the meat shield, but you just seemed to come in and jump on whatever band wagon was going. To the point when they're voting for you, you can't provide any decent information for the Town to be looking at. You simply defended yourself, which looks Scummy. So, you don't seem to have the time to put the effort in and that appears to me to hurt the Town. Please correct me if I'm seeing things wrong.

ScumbaRadish!
You suck at roleplaying. :grin: Well, you still play well and you really did great with some of the roleplay Actions, especially 80's music. :laugh: Falling in love with Sandy? :thumbup: I boo you, Sir. I think people will listen to you more when you're not telling people they're stupid and I'm very happy to hear you saying you'll adjust to a new strategy and really responding to people giving you feedback on this aspect. This give me great hopes for  you. I really like having you as part of the community and hope to play more with you in the future.

CallMePie
:wub_drool: Congratulations! You figure out the team thing! I was so excited when you bodyguarded Rufus instead of commuting. It made me so happy. It's nice to see your evolution even if a huge portion of it just happened in this one game. Way to take one for the team. That role is meant to be a risk taker and at first I was a little worried that you would just take it as a way to try and survive to the end. I'm so happy you chose the risk part. :grin: Commuting was a way to keep the balance for the Scum. We couldn't have two targets protected every night. Although your role would've allowed it, but this gave it enough variation and the Town had protection from the many night killers in this game. Anyway, it was a pleasure having you in here, especially since you had a great growth experience on top of it all. :thumbup:

TinyPiesRUs
Don't sit here reading this!! Go start your Viking game. I'm so excited about it. I really feel like playing. It was great having you in this game. I like when you play. It seemed you were on your way to figuring stuff out which is awesome when a vanilla can do that. I wish we could've seen you play longer. You always take the games seriously and do the most you can with what you're giving. And I appreciate having someone play who loves their character so much.

Cecilie
What can I say that I haven't already told you? I think you should be very happy with your performance. You brought out an accusation (that was completely correct) and didn't care if it meant putting yourself at risk. And you put up a helluva Townie fight. I was really impressed watching how you handled what was truly a shitty card dealt to you. I'm not sure how it happened. Someone thought you were acting Scummy, others agreed and from there they all thought you were Scum and wouldn't let it rest until your dead corpse said otherwise. Hopefully, you keep trying because I think you have a good game. :thumbup:

Professor Flitwick
I always love your humor and dedication to character. You're always a fun one to have because you keep the day thread lively and give people roleplay stuff to respond to. And you've come a long way strategically from Fuckwit Ferret in The Forest I. :laugh: You made all the wrong decisions in the end. :tongue: But you were up against a lot. I will ask you the same question I asked Fangy. Why didn't you go after Shadows when Rufus came up as a Villager? And why didn't you even vote on Day Seven? Anyway, I think you've become a formidable player in these games, but your game seemed slightly off here. I didn't see much fight from you and you usually find people to connect with behind the scenes. Were you talking to Shadows too?

Zepher
Bawk indeed. Sorry I was so harsh with my comments in the day notes. I know it's a game and that's just my way of venting when I'm seeing what I do see, which is not what's going on behind the scenes. I really stayed impartial, but part of that was venting to Foog in our PM conversation. Making posts like I did to you with all of the emoticons. As a host, I want my Town to have a chance. But if the Scum swing that balance by manipulating people then...I can't do anything about it. So that's where the ire in those notes come from. You were very active, trying to figure things out, trying to make the best decisions. I appreciate that and seeing what you were actually doing shows that you were doing your best with what you had. I would've voted for iamded as well had I blocked him twice on night when there was no serial kill. Or been blocked and there was or however it happened. You did a real nice job and I can understand being cautious between Shadows and Rufus. Great work. You did what you could.

Eskallon
Yay, Esky! Like Pie, I think you really turned your game around. With a bumpy first day, you changed your tone. Unfortunately, the suspicion was already there and the Scum definitely used you as a scapegoat more than once. Your protection targets were right on more than once, so great job there. You protected Rufus and Pandora successfully and it would've saved Pandora on Night Three had you not been blocked. Even though it was fishy to everyone, you chose a good person to claim to. Based on your own Night Actions. I'm really glad you picked up on your weird result from Night One and spread the information around the Town. What went wrong during the private conversations with Scubacarrot? Sounds like you've come a long way either way so congratulations. Can't wait to see you apply what you've learned to the next game. :grin:

DarkDragon
I would've liked to see you play because you were calling things correctly from the dead board. You caught Danny's Scummy posts and saw the intentional penalty votes. In the last two games, though, it seems to be your sensitivities that get you into trouble: posting PMs, making jokes. If I were you I would vent those personal frustrations to your husband or into a word doc and just leave them out of the game. One of these days, we're going to see a brilliant game out of you if you're allowed... :blush:

CorneliusMurdock
You said you think this was your worst performance, but I don't see it that way at all. You trusted Shadows, oops. But you were out there trying to make things happen. You did a great job from what I saw. You were tough in the day threads. I love Portia Poodle the Grocery Empire Bitch. :wub_drool: You were the participation enforcer, which was also awesome and you were hilarious. Your book references gave me so many ideas for a potential Harriet Slutter Mafia. You brought a ton of fun to the game. I was annoyed to see you go and in retrospect it was a huge disadvantage for you that the Scum had hooked up with the Serial Killer. :hmpf: Shadows has said he would've sold Draggy out to you if he couldn't have converted him. Yeah, ifs and buts... :tongue: Anyway, you did great with what you were given. Of course I would've liked to see you last longer, but you were a victim of that awful massacre night. You, JimB, Pandora and Rick all in one night. :cry_sad: So ugly.

badboytje88
I think your game is improving, but one little slip-up with this group leads to a fast lynch. And then everything you said led to a slippery slope of sorts. I'm glad you played. I always enjoy having you around. Your gay cliches were...gay. :sceptic: Go make more gay friends. :laugh: We don't all act like that. Anyway, nice work. I think you did a nice job in your defense for the most part. You said some really weird things like "ignore everything I said yesterday." :laugh: That was quite an enjoyable gaffe. But you kept trying to the end, coming up with theories about the info you were given. You disappeared a bit towards the end, which never helps. It didn't give people much to work off after you died. But, I think you did all right.

So, the Town gets steamrolled by a powerful Scum team that has access to three kills. You did your best against that. I feel the Town gave up the last couple of days. Certain players just became apathetic or didn't have the time to contribute the way they wanted to. Either way, it was no match for an active Shadows and a team that knew how to provide him with some backup.

As a side note, I didn't allow PM quoting in this game because I was tired of seeing PM quoting clear so many people. Especially when it's used in a sneaky way like in Excalibur when Shadows quoted all of his PMs to the host. That's a bit of toeing the line of the rule about not quoting PMs from the host. But, on the opposite end I've never seen anyone attempt a fake PM quote and the Scum never seem to want to try that, so it was working too much against one side. Write plays.

I think the roleplaying actions were successful and I really appreciate people sticking to them. It really made it fun and brought back memories of the earliest games where we all had fun in addition to the mechanics and the grumpy post-game analysis. If there weren't vote penalties, most people would ignore it and then there'd be no fun and people would get lynched just for having fun. :hmpf:

Great game due to great players. Thanks, everybody, for taking it seriously. I really thought the balance was even the whole time, even with the Town losing three players a night - or four with lynches. But, for the core of the game, every player was fully engaged and that made the game fun and fascinating and a true nail biter. The balance was up in the air and super close the entire time. If the Town would've made a couple different moves they could've won this. I don't think the balance has ever been set so well in one of my games, but I will definitely watch the reactions next time to avoid this serial killer nonsense. Next time a player insult me by PM, I'll just mod-kill them. :grin: No, they'll be ignored and it will most likely go into my game rules. Pestering the host: vote penalty first offense, instead death on the second. I'm tired of it. It causes problem, especially when I don't react well. :blush: To conclude, I'm happy with this game. I've learned a lot for going forward and I think this game is a great example of how I've grown as a host and become less and less intrusive every time. And I have witnesses.

Still to come: out-takes and puzzle answers & winners.

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#116 Darkdragon

Darkdragon

  • Destroyed Dreams of Super-Santa


    Posts: 5125
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Posted 22 September 2012 - 11:59 PM

I'm so grateful to you for all this post-game analysis. The time and effort you put into the game itself and this on top of it, just shows how much you care about the game and the players. Thank you so much.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

DarkDragon
I would've liked to see you play because you were calling things correctly from the dead board. You caught Danny's Scummy posts and saw the intentional penalty votes. In the last two games, though, it seems to be your sensitivities that get you into trouble: posting PMs, making jokes. If I were you I would vent those personal frustrations to your husband or into a word doc and just leave them out of the game. One of these days, we're going to see a brilliant game out of you if you're allowed... :blush:
Eeeeyeahhh... I need to fix this behavior. Really tried to not be crazy this time (failed), did you see what happened to me in Excalibur 1.0?  :blush: Anyway, I'm working on it. Would have been really nice if the last 3 hosts had given me some feedback like this, I might have improved more by now. It was pretty cool to find out that I was right on a lot of things that people were saying "you are insane, nobody would do that". Hopefully next game I will do better. This is my fourth game and I think I'm slowly improving, and at least I'm trying to actively participate and not just coast through to a win like I did my second game (embarrassing).

Hope I get to play in Forest III, I'll try not to waste a character by getting lynched day one. :wink:

#117 Masked Builder

Masked Builder

  • Hoping to get it up tonight


    Posts: 8184
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    Country: New York, USA

Posted 23 September 2012 - 12:34 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Player Analysis (continued)

Masked Builder
You didn't get to play very much but I would advise you to stay away from fish left out in the open on strange spikey plate type thingies or whatever.

Yeah, I'll remember that if I come across any. :grin:  Seems to be my lot to be killed early as scum.
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#118 Fugazi

Fugazi

  • Welcome to Eurobricks. How can I help you?


    Posts: 3930
    Joined: 08-January 10
    Member: 8966
    Country: Canada

Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:23 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I've learned a lot for going forward and I think this game is a great example of how I've grown as a host and become less and less intrusive every time. And I have witnesses.
I'm a witness! :sweet: In such a complex game featuring twisted night actions, roleplay actions, puzzles, one-shots and what not, there were uncountable occasions to bend the rules, give more clues, add a one-shot here or flip the coin again there. But Hinckley would have none of that -- we discussed options, sometimes made dodgy plans, but in the end the rules established before the game started we followed through and through. Perhaps too much so, maybe it would have been wiser to redraw the roles when Shadows and Draggy ended up respectively Godfather and Serial Killer. The possibility of a SK conversion, the odds of which were very slim to start with, suddenly became very real. Still we thought that the setup was playable, and left things as they were. Even with the help of his conversion, Dragonator had to walk a tight rope and no one should think that Scum did all the work for him. He should be proud of a well-deserved victory. :thumbup:
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#119 Hinckley

Hinckley

  • I'm an idito!


    Posts: 29531
    Joined: 15-September 05
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    Country: Chicago, USA

Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:20 AM

View PostFugazi, on 23 September 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

I'm a witness! :sweet: In such a complex game featuring twisted night actions, roleplay actions, puzzles, one-shots and what not, there were uncountable occasions to bend the rules, give more clues, add a one-shot here or flip the coin again there. But Hinckley would have none of that -- we discussed options, sometimes made dodgy plans, but in the end the rules established before the game started we followed through and through. Perhaps too much so, maybe it would have been wiser to redraw the roles when Shadows and Draggy ended up respectively Godfather and Serial Killer. The possibility of a SK conversion, the odds of which were very slim to start with, suddenly became very real. Still we thought that the setup was playable, and left things as they were. Even with the help of his conversion, Dragonator had to walk a tight rope and no one should think that Scum did all the work for him. He should be proud of a well-deserved victory. :thumbup:
Thanks, Foog. And good point about Draggy. If I haven't stressed it enough, yes. He is very worthy of this win. When I finally removed myself from the conversion controversy, Draggy and I had been caught in a lie. I told the Scum team I gave Draggy the option to reveal his Serial Killer status or not. Draggy told Shadows I had never said any such thing. Shadows was trying to clarify this with me after I had finally figured out what was going on and that Dragonator had claimed to him. I told Shadows he couldn't ask me anything else about Draggy's role and told Draggy "Hey, our info is conflicting, so guess what, you're on your own again. Leave me out of it." So, when I left the situation, Shadows was still suspicious. I bet Draggy did a good job smoothing everything over. So well that it never became an issue again. When I left the debate, it was still open and Shadows was still suspicious. So, blame my PM modifying all you want, Shadows. You still had questions when I finally cut you off. Draggy liked the role, felt it was balanced and moved it forward, setting your mind at ease. I'm trying to compliment Draggy and making it about myself again. :hmpf: Great job, Draggy. I really am pleased you were able to pull it off and got to show off your devious skills again. :thumbup:

And I was pleased with the ending. I did feel bad for the Scum, but it was a surprise to everyone. How often are there surprise ending in our Mafia games? This thing was a roller coaster, raging out of control (although balanced at the same time. :blush:) but it was a nail biter like that. Up until the last night, any faction could've won it and Draggy coming out on top is really kind of cool. I wish we didn't have so much to debate, but I'm really pleased with the game, the outcome and the skill everyone showed in getting it to where it was. All in all, no matter you view on the controversy, 28 people had a lot of fun for over a month (like Zepher said) and there's something to be said for that.

Plus, there was Mafiaception. Mafia within a mafia on the dead writeboard...which I totally blew the ending for and completely fucked the game. :blush:

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#120 Scubacarrot

Scubacarrot

  • Completely Lame


    Posts: 6414
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    Country: Netherlands

Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:29 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

ScumbaRadish!
You suck at roleplaying. :grin: Well, you still play well and you really did great with some of the roleplay Actions, especially 80's music. :laugh: Falling in love with Sandy? :thumbup: I boo you, Sir. I think people will listen to you more when you're not telling people they're stupid and I'm very happy to hear you saying you'll adjust to a new strategy and really responding to people giving you feedback on this aspect. This give me great hopes for you. I really like having you as part of the community and hope to play more with you in the future.

:cry_sad:

But... I play in the Heroica Roleplaying Game... I don't... suck... do I? DO I?!

I've already said it, I was no fan of the "make an animal sound, REMEMBER to make an animal sound, make your character eat bugs. And REMEMBER that." I did not like the limited options with my character's quirk, and I'm terrible at remembering stuff, so when you ask me to do this on every post, I'm going to have a hard time.

Why boo me? I'm getting mixed messages. I boo you! Or something. I don't even know what that entails, but I guess it must be slang for calling someone awesome. Because this game was, it had everything: Explosions, awesome music, animals killing each other, broken hearts, steamy romances...

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#121 Waterbrick Down

Waterbrick Down

  • Typer-of-faces


    Posts: 5150
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:35 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Waterbrick Down
You barely got to play but you were on your way to forming a good Town block. Caution is good so don't kick yourself for not talking to Pandora. Investigators can be tricky, especially with paranoid enhancers or framers out there. I am certainly one who believes in "Verify, verify, verify". I may have said it somewhere before. So I encourage such caution. My notes are based on an outside perspective, so take them with a grain of salt. Not sure why WhiteFang decided to target you, but I was disappointed you were taken out so early. I think you do a great job in these games and I would've liked to have had you along for the whole ride. You made good choices for targets. Verifying Pandora and Scubacarrot would've gotten you a nice strong strategic Town block to work with. Sorry for booing you on the writeboard and then not explaining. I was more booing the idea that it's easier for other players to do the work. Boooo!!! to that idea. :blush:
Thanks Hinckley, I had mixed feelings about the investigator role because it meant I couldn't play my normal style. I had to be extra paranoid and make sure not to put the role in danger from either being lynched, vig-killed, or scum-killed which I messed up somewhere, so any insight that can be given on why I deserved to be vig-killed would be appreciated. :classic: I honestly had fun even though it was such a short game and am glad that my strategy was sound in investigating Pandora and Scuba, though honestly I should have looked into Scouty earlier after there was so much suspicion on him.

To all of you, you were a great bunch to play with, even if I was disappointed at your (the town's) performance on the write-board towards the end and I look forward to many more mafia games to come.

View PostDarkDragon, on 22 September 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Eeeeyeahhh... I need to fix this behavior. Really tried to not be crazy this time (failed), did you see what happened to me in Excalibur 1.0?  :blush: Anyway, I'm working on it. Would have been really nice if the last 3 hosts had given me some feedback like this, I might have improved more by now. It was pretty cool to find out that I was right on a lot of things that people were saying "you are insane, nobody would do that". Hopefully next game I will do better. This is my fourth game and I think I'm slowly improving, and at least I'm trying to actively participate and not just coast through to a win like I did my second game (embarrassing).

Hope I get to play in Forest III, I'll try not to waste a character by getting lynched day one. :wink:
No keep playing the way you're playing, it's the one thing that convinced me that you were a townie on Day 1. :laugh:

Currently questing in Sandy's Heroica RPG as:


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#122 Dragonator

Dragonator

  • Blurry? No! Furry? Who knows?


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Posted 23 September 2012 - 02:47 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

You told me you didn't want the answer before I had a chance to answer. And I'm sorry, who else in their right mind would go to the person they're going to convert and tell them first? :hmpf: Most Townies (or even Serial Killers I would imagine) would reveal someone who came to them saying "I'm Scum and I'm going to convert you." That's the way it should go anyway. I know you weren't a Townie here, but I seem to recall it happening in a previous game. This is my point of the problems your relationship causes for hosts.
What game? I can assure you we have never claimed to each other when we were on opposite sides, ever, that would be stupid. :laugh: We want to win these games, doing that would just make the other one kill us. And I would disagree, my plan from the start was to try and find the scum team, convince them I had a survival win condition, and then tell them who I am. Don't assume you know my strategy!

The mere fact I asked you "So, I'm neutral. If, in the event, there happened to be a scum converter, and they attempted to convert me in the knowledge that I can be converted, would I be?" should probably have at least hinted to you that it was being discussed. :laugh: But I will not labour the point, I was merely giving some advice. The note about separate scum PMs is probably the main one that should be kept in mind in future.

The "arbitrary shouldn't" isn't at all what you just said. I said you should not plan to reveal someone's role, either with clues or without. Allow for it to happen in the game mechanics, but don't plan on it and then panic when the player figures out a way for it not to happen. Of course I don't want my role revealed, of course I'll try to find the best way to avoid that. It was more the "I planned to have this sub-plot work this way by revealing it like this" impression that I was saying you shouldn't have.

Anyway I didn't want to get into a long back and forth about it, I just meant to point out one or two spots that I think you could improve on in an otherwise fantastic game.  :thumbup:

And of course I've already said how much I loved the game, and it would take forever to list all the really cool elements you included. Now gimme my evil minion army. :devil:

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#123 Darkdragon

Darkdragon

  • Destroyed Dreams of Super-Santa


    Posts: 5125
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 03:11 AM

View PostHinckley, on 23 September 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Plus, there was Mafiaception. Mafia within a mafia on the dead writeboard...which I totally blew the ending for and completely fucked the game. :blush:
It was so much fun until that mistake (but I'm sure you learned not to rush, right?) :laugh: For sure I hope to see another one (well, I mean I hope I don't get to play one, because that means I'm dead...again).

View PostWaterbrick Down, on 23 September 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

No keep playing the way you're playing, it's the one thing that convinced me that you were a townie on Day 1. :laugh:
:laugh: Yeah, that worked out so well for me.

#124 CorneliusMurdock

CorneliusMurdock

  • Adorable


    Posts: 7329
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:01 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Pandora
Blame Cornelius.
Hey, watch it there, mister.  My action was only intended to kill Pandora if she were a dirty rotten Lumberjack.  I can't help it if I was stupid enough to claim to the scum godfather who then ratted me out to the SK.  Oh wait.  Maybe I could have helped that.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

CorneliusMurdock
You said you think this was your worst performance, but I don't see it that way at all. You trusted Shadows, oops. But you were out there trying to make things happen. You did a great job from what I saw. You were tough in the day threads. I love Portia Poodle the Grocery Empire Bitch. :wub_drool: You were the participation enforcer, which was also awesome and you were hilarious. Your book references gave me so many ideas for a potential Harriet Slutter Mafia. You brought a ton of fun to the game. I was annoyed to see you go and in retrospect it was a huge disadvantage for you that the Scum had hooked up with the Serial Killer. :hmpf: Shadows has said he would've sold Draggy out to you if he couldn't have converted him. Yeah, ifs and buts... :tongue: Anyway, you did great with what you were given. Of course I would've liked to see you last longer, but you were a victim of that awful massacre night. You, JimB, Pandora and Rick all in one night. :cry_sad: So ugly.

It was my worst performance strategy-wise.  While I don't regret claiming to Rufus, I should never ever have done the same with Shadows.  I really didn't think it could hurt me since I knew he wasn't the SK.  I figured that if he were scum, he wouldn't have killing the psychiatrist tree stump very high on his to-do list.  He'd know I wasn't a threat to his team.  How was I supposed to know he'd recruited the SK to that team?

The town seemed so lost at that point since the scum hadn't killed, I needed some people with more analytical minds (or fewer kids screaming in their ear all day long) to know which killer was which.  When I was talking to Rufus and he was theorizing, he was starting from a wrong assumption.  I thought it would help him figure things out if he had a bit more info to go on.  Shadows is also really good at figuring things out too(when he's not scum which is hardly ever).  I thought it would give him a leg up on figuring things out as well.  Last time I try to help him.

I did really enjoy the game.  Maybe it's better that I died when I did.  I don't know how many more Harriet Slutter stories I could have come up with.

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#125 Shadows

Shadows

  • Awesome, brilliant, not redundant.


    Posts: 14558
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:48 AM

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I was told that's the only place you were planning, which is why I was originally horrified by your activity on Day One.
Day one should never be scripted by the scum. Going into the game with a plan is too easy to spot early. Day one alliances, or even the appearance of one, is a sure sign of scum. Like Eskallon and Scumba. :wink:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

when I say that you can opt to not use the writeboard I started. I honestly do not care. I like to see what's happening for my own entertainment, but when I said you can do whatever you want, I fully meant it and there was no reason to sneak off to other places.
IF we're ever in this position again, and I'm not saying we will be, there will definitely be a different way of handling that situation. There is never a time when the host should adjust the game because he sees something that the scum are discussing, so if it takes keeping all of that out of sight to prevent it, it's worth it. I never would have expected that, to be honest, but you say you changed things according to what you saw, so it won't happen again.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

What would I have done?
Refer to Asylum II for that answer. :wink: Then ask yourself when you became def. :devil:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Whatevs. Hosting can be a lonely job. :cry_sad:
"But enough about the scum, let's talk about me!" :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Anyway, based on what I saw there, the teamwork seemed to mostly be Shadows taking a strong lead and you guys filling out his plan in an excellent and highly efficient manner.
They really did and I :wub: them all for it. I have a new respect for each and every one of you who lived past day 1. *pokes Masked Builder* Yep, still dead. :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Shadows dropped in and said something funny but with an underlying patronizing tone like "Look at you guys strategizing and being Scummy on your own" or whatever. :laugh: It was funny because Shadows is the master, but I did think there was an underlying truth to it...
I remember the post and it wasn't really meant to be patronizing, though it clearly was. It was actually the point where I recognised that they had grown since the beginning of the game. When we first started, I kept thinking, "oh god, it's another one of these teams, I've had them before, I can win with them, but it's going to be like babysitting the whole time." When I made that post, I stopped thinking of them that way, despite how it sounded.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Also, maybe you guys could've figured out the clues to Draggy's win condition if you weren't letting Shadows' proclamation of "Hinck must be fucking up his poorly planned game again" drown out your own ability to analyze what was happening. I know there's a huge controversy over the need to look for clues after I updated the role PM, but there was opportunity for the three other Scum members to go "Why is Hinck freaking out about a simple request?" Four people to mull that over for the rest of the game.
We discussed it in our private PM and came to the conclusion that no host in their right mind would put a scum team in that position. Apparently some part of that idea was wrong. You know which one I think it was. :devil:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

If Draggy and Shadows are married, I'm Shadows's ex that got stuck with the kids.
Speaking of which, I'm not going to be able to make it this weekend, but I'll make it up to the kids later. Promise. Oh, and the check is in the mail.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I really thought there was enough there for someone to pick up on something being wrong.
It didn't matter how convinced I got at times, the overall insanity of a 3rd party being inserted in the scum and given access to everything including a role was too much to overcome. I seriously hope to never see a role like that again.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I can guarantee this won't happen again.
We shall see.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Shadows
I've spent enough time analyzing that one day of your game, so can I please tell you how awesome you did otherwise?
If you must. :tongue:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

SOme of your "Rah rah! Town!" posts made me vomit. All this talk about the win condition has over-shadowed your ludicrous endgame gambit. :laugh: What the fuck. "Dear Serial Killer, ..." And speaking of the win condition thing, is that letter a bit ironing in retrospect? :look:
I love that post. I will always love that post. As games seem to go well, I get more and more ridiculous in my approach to them. That was my over-the-top post for the game, and so much fun to make. I was one step from proclaiming myself a member of the Fabuland Bureau of Investigation, by the way. Had there been another day...

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I'm disappointed to hear you think the Team win is a bad change.
How can you be, I've said it 100 times. I said it when it was proposed, I've said it between games and in all kinds of discussions. Team win doesn't work, it opens the door to cheating, for one thing. It also ruins the use of usurpers, and this game is proof of that. If, as you say, Draggy was really scum, no matter what his win condition, his winning made all of the scum win. Yay, scum team win! And if he wasn't scum why was he using one of our actions and told who we were? See where this is going? :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Is Amy supposed to lose when he selflessly sacrifices himself for a meat shield gambit? That allows you to dupe Flitwick and Quarryman. Is Amy supposed to be considered a "loser" for allowing his team to have that benefit? Is Pie supposed to lose when he decides to bodyguard the most vulnerable Townie when he can just commute and survive? Does that make him a loser when he takes that self-risk for the benefit of the team?
That's the only benefit of team win. It's a tricky issue, I'll admit. I want to find a middle ground somehow.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

One of these days, we'll play that game that has no issues. We'll play it together and we'll have fun. We'll both find the things we can do to achieve that and it'll happen. I really want that. We get closer every time. :blush:
We were getting closer, this one was a punch in the face. I don't think I'll be happy until I see you play a scum game in which you're given an impossible situation to deal with and the win is taken from you at the last second. Yes, I'm really that horrible of a person. :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Masked Builder
You're still dead! (inside joke) :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Scouty
I don't like giving day 1 directions, it puts the scum in a position of looking too closely aligned too soon. I wish I'd made an exception here, but you certainly salvaged it for a while, which says a lot for your slipperiness. That's a word? Firefox says so, and we all know to trust the fiery fox. :devil:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

iamded
I love you.
I couldn't have said it better myself, Amy was the perfect stoner horse, and that's saying something. So calm and casual. :wub:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Dannylonglegs
You did a really nice job on this, especially being the noobiest of the Scum team. You had a lot of great ideas, some of which would've gotten you killed. Others which were very clever.
Every time I started to see your talent, you'd suggest something that would have instantly been the lynch of the day. It was a hilarious rollercoaster, but in the end you did good job and I'll remember it in the future. I'm not sure if that's good or bad for you. :grin:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

It is something to watch, for both you and Shadows if this happens again, that you seemed a little too sure that Horace would come up as Scum. You actually not so bad, but Shadows was blatant. :laugh:
Like I said, by the end of a game, I get pretty ridiculous. In this case, I was relying on "let's avenge Brigit!" who I actually believed had tracked Amy, so a nod to Sandy for a damn fine bluff that worked perfectly to my advantage. :grin:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

The Lumberjack
Dragonator
You are not Scum
YOU FINALLY ADMIT IT! YOU BASTARD! SCUM WIN BY HOST ERROR! Seriously, letting a 3rd party in our pm and having them use one of our actions, it's just so ridiculous it's both brilliant and game breaking. Mostly the latter. :tongue:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

And you play the same game as Scum or Town, so who the fuck knows??? :laugh:
This is why you people are supposed to kill him on night 1, and by you people, I also mean that I should have. No sentimentality, no "aw poor Draggy getting metagamed again", just kill the bastard. :laugh:

You know I don't blame you for the role you had to play, Draggy, and you played it brilliantly. You've also told me how hard it was for you, so for that, I hate you I love you. :wub:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

The Villagers
I love you all. Enough said. :devil:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

For the most part, mini-pockets of trust were starting to form...but the Scum having three killers at their disposal broke that up pretty quickly.
We didn't have Fangy for days and days and we never had Draggy. Quit saying that, it's not true! NOT TRUE AT ALL.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Unintentionally, every character with a black torso is Scum. :blush:
I get points for never complaining about that, by the way.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Everyone: Why did you think Rufus could be Scum after Pandora had been revealed as Town?
There's no reason for them to be on the same side. If they can't play opposites, they shouldn't play. I have no doubt they can do it, have faith in them, hosts.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Hopefully you get to play longer as Gilbert :blush: in III.
Oh god. Well there you have it folks. IF I come back, remember... I was neutral, then scum, so I'll obviously be town. Write it down and don't lose it, towniest of town, that's me. :grin:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

ScumbaRadish!
Sent me a one line taunting PM after he died, laughing because I was wrong about him. I'll keep it forever. :wink:

Also sent a congratulatory PM when Rufus accused me, and staying in character, I denied being scum and said Rufus must have been tricked. :laugh:

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Professor Flitwick
I didn't see much fight from you and you usually find people to connect with behind the scenes. Were you talking to Shadows too?
Only the last day, last decision. Not a word before that, I don't think.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

CorneliusMurdock
Shadows has said he would've sold Draggy out to you if he couldn't have converted him.
Absolutely true. I would have actually gotten him to kill a few townies first, then sold him out. It would have made all the difference in the world.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

So, the Town gets steamrolled by a powerful Scum team that has access to three kills.
STILL NOT TRUE.

View PostHinckley, on 22 September 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Especially when it's used in a sneaky way like in Excalibur when Shadows quoted all of his PMs to the host.
I thought it was a perfectly reasonable response to the question, and they were 100% accurate (and naturally within the rules of the game). I didn't even consider it a great defense, just an easy way to answer what was asked. I was as surprised as anyone when it cleared me of suspicion and I was innocent anyway.

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