Technic Designs better with Panels or not?

[DrJB]

The early TLG official sets were literally 'skeletons' of car/vehicles meant primarily at showing the inner workings of those vehicles (steering/suspension/gears). However, lately TLG has been using more panels and very dense build techniques and thus put more emphasis on aesthetics, in addition to function. Two vehicles come to mind, that perfectly illustrate such paradigm shift: The iconic 8448 and the recent Arocs. I for one never cared much for the 'many panels' many MOCers insist on putting, but I've had a change of heart and yes, it's ok now to merge art (looks) and engineering (functions). Your thoughts?

vs

Edited April 18, 2016 by DrJB

[JGW3000]

I think its more to keep up with the competition - as you can get any number of well finished toy truck models, some quite intricate with many features, at similar or even much lower price points. Add the appeal that you are buying a well finished and designed/detailed LEGO model, and you may be willing to pay a premium.

[Paul Boratko]

There is a large difference in price and part count between those 2 sets, not to mention the evolution of panels over the 16 years in between their releases.. I think I paid $99 for that 8448 back in 1999.

I think that Lego is trying to make Technic more appealing aesthetically to casual fans of Lego to drive up sales in that theme.. I know that many people didn't care for the skeletal look of the earlier Technic models..

Not really sure if MOCers have anything to do with what Lego is doing.. I mean they came up with the ideas first as they developed new panels.. Take the 8258 Crane Truck for example.. That set is 7 years old now and looks just as good as any of the new sets today..

Edited April 18, 2016 by Paul Boratko

[DrJB]

Take the 8258 Crane Truck for example ... That set is 7 years old now and looks just as good as any of the new sets today..

Agree fully. That set is one of my favorites, yet I've always felt it was way under-rated. Not sure if the picture on the box has anything to do with it, but to me that's such an iconic truck, that fits perfectly well next to the Arocs and the 42009.

Edited April 18, 2016 by DrJB

[Appie]

Title says Supercars and topic so far only has 1 supercar in it...

The Porsche is build much more in the new style yes, but if it rivals people's MOCs in terms of functions remains to be seen in August.

The (pseudo) flappy-panel gearbox on the Porsche is a good step in that direction at least, but there are more systems I think that can be "Lego-fied" and I am not sure the Porsche has them.

[zux]

Keeping in mind supercars many people have built recently I think LEGO might be trying to catchup with Porsche release. Would be nice if Blackbird compare it (when it becomes available) to the huge variety of Supercars he has ever built.

[allanp]

I didn't like the panelling at first. I preferred it when they concentrated on making the lines of the vehicle look good as opposed to filling in between the lines. For a number of years it just looked like a patchwork of panels full of gaps, neither fully filling in between the lines nor even making the lines. But the designs and the parts have evolved slowly over the years, I am slowly beginning to like the panels. The Arocs looks as beefy as an old beam built design like 8868 (though still doesn't feel it) and the Porsche may win out over even 8880 for best looking supercar depending on how it's finished. for me, that is a huge compliment as I love 8880!

[LucyCol]

I didn't like the panelling at first. I preferred it when they concentrated on making the lines of the vehicle look good as opposed to filling in between the lines. For a number of years it just looked like a patchwork of panels full of gaps, neither fully filling in between the lines nor even making the lines. But the designs and the parts have evolved slowly over the years, I am slowly beginning to like the panels. The Arocs looks as beefy as an old beam built design like 8868 (though still doesn't feel it) and the Porsche may win out over even 8880 for best looking supercar depending on how it's finished. for me, that is a huge compliment as I love 8880!

IMHO 8880 is an all time classic and will never be beaten

Panelling seems to be the way that TLG are going I'm not 100% convinced yet, if you look at a set like 8868 it managed to have a pretty convincing look just using studded beams and a bit of imagination.

[dr_spock]

It can also be changing tastes of their target kid market. Maybe today's kids want faster builds and don't have the patience to pin a bunch of liftarms together when a panel can quickly fill the space.

[bonox]

I'd be willing to bet that a panel is much cheaper than an equivalent pile of liftarms, but provides stiffness and light weight, together with a simple sticker surface that you can't match with liftarms. When you look at panels covering working innards, 8258 control bay for example, you get a lot more working space inside as well compared to a full 1 stud thick wall of liftarms. The square ends also join together nicely, where liftarms give you a pile of assorted gaps and holes - like the rear of the arocs cab.

Imagine how heavy Lucio switch's fire truck would be if it didn't have panels!!

In short, given how fiddly the pneumatics of the 42043 are, I don't think the concept of panels to make build faster for those with short attention spans has any merit.

You can't replicate curved panels with liftarms either, so much of that argument dies away with only a small portion of panels being flat.

[allanp]

IMHO 8880 is an all time classic and will never be beaten

Panelling seems to be the way that TLG are going I'm not 100% convinced yet, if you look at a set like 8868 it managed to have a pretty convincing look just using studded beams and a bit of imagination.

I pretty much agree with you. Whilst I think the Porsche MIGHT beat 8880, it still depends on how it's finished, it's final colour and shaping and so on. 8880 sure is an all time classic and still the benchmark to beat. But I would go so far as to say that the Porsche looks better than ANY MOC supercar. Not that the designers of MOC supercars should feel bad as TLG can make new TLG quality parts without being called non purist, and TLGs designers get paid lots of money to design a single set for the year as their day job so TLGs sets should look better than any MOC (given a similar number of pieces) and it's nice to see they have finally done it.

I am slowly becoming sold on panels but like you, I am not 100% convinced yet. I built (read rebuilt for the Xth time) 8868 and it really is stunning. The beams give it this awesome and solid and bulky look, which I think the Arocs also has, but whilst the Arocs is very solid for a studless build, it's all relative, the Arocs only really looks solid compared to 8868 which really is solid.

[Jim]

I have changed the title, since this topic has little to do with Supercars.

[Robert Brick]

I love building with panels. You can build complex mechanics and cover them under a good looking hull. Now you can rebuild detailed real cars in a way you didn't dream of in 1999. That's the main advantage of panels, I think.

[Blakbird]

I love building with panels. You can build complex mechanics and cover them under a good looking hull. Now you can rebuild detailed real cars in a way you didn't dream of in 1999. That's the main advantage of panels, I think.

This has both pros and cons though. With 8448, for example, you could easily still see the way all the functions worked even through the body. Arguably, this is the main point of Technic. The panels look more realistic, but they also necessarily hide the functions.

[Buddy010702]

This has both pros and cons though. With 8448, for example, you could easily still see the way all the functions worked even through the body. Arguably, this is the main point of Technic. The panels look more realistic, but they also necessarily hide the functions.

I agree, but I usually make it possible to see the interior by having a lifting hood, an open bottom, etc. I don't mind using panels at all, plus they make my models lighter, which really helps. (I also like a 'finished' look, something comparable to the inspiration where there are no gaps where there aren't meant to be gaps)

[Erik Leppen]

The panels look more realistic, but they also necessarily hide the functions.

Aren't "hiding the functions" and "realism" also functions, in a way?

Edit: not directed at you specifically, just using your quote

I mean, Technic has always been about "just as in real life". In real life, functions are hidden too. I think customers can appreciate the functions by building the model, and then, when it's done, it looks nice and it has all the functions they built.

Anyway, I don't think I prefer any over the other. As long as a model has a consistent style, I'm fine with it. 8448 is skeletal maybe, but it's consistently skeletal, so it's good. (Also, 8448 is a great set that I personally consider heavily underappreciated.)

Edited April 20, 2016 by Erik Leppen

[Ngoc Nguyen]

As I only bought models for display and don't play with it often, I'd much prefer those with panels. They give the models a clean, finished look, and realistic details, like that of the 42052. I derive much enjoyment and appreciation from looking at the models.

[L3gonut]

Agree fully. That set is one of my favorites, yet I've always felt it was way under-rated. Not sure if the picture on the box has anything to do with it, but to me that's such an iconic truck, that fits perfectly well next to the Arocs and the 42009.

I think LEGO designing is moving to a still will work design for the lowest retail price that wil work. However i can imagine that panels wil not provide all the sturdiness as opposed to bricks.

And for those old skool legoers;

LEGO is a changing..

[nerdsforprez]

I have changed the title, since this topic has little to do with Supercars.

This post seems to have taken a drastic turn. Not for the better, not for the worse, just a drastic turn. Not sure how much any of it applies anymore to the original. I have been following this post for a while, not quite sure how to respond b/c of the changes.

The initial post asked the question if TLG was catching the status of modern MOCers. Yes... the title indicates supercars, which is incorrect, but I think what the OP wanted to target was Lego Technic in general. Is it catching up to the looks and functions of the MOCers. IMO - no. And likely never will. Technic models put out by TLG have many, many limitations on them, which MOCers don't necessarily share. Too many limitations to list. Safety, cost effectiveness, can it be easily reproduced, time, etc the list goes on and on. Kinda common sense stuff here. Not really fair to compare the two.

The question of adding panels and how it relates to looks is kinda a weird discussion IMO. To me it completely seems just a matter of personal opinion. There is no right or wrong. Comparison of older, studded models to current ones also seem inaccurate. What often is ignored is that we are comparing pure looks (current models) to looks + a social construct. What do I mean by a social construct? Historical models will always hold a place in our hearts because they carry personal or social meaning to us (i.e. they are a "classic"). Regardless of its actual looks, no one will dare say that 8880 is not even close to as good looking to modern MOC supercars, because it is a "classic" (even if it were true) and one would be lambasted by the community for not continuing its glory. A glory we all share because it has historical ties to it.... our childhood, first lego model, etc.......Current models can't be compared to this. So the comparison is not objective. It carries a huge bias.

[LucyCol]

The question of adding panels and how it relates to looks is kinda a weird discussion IMO. To me it completely seems just a matter of personal opinion. There is no right or wrong. Comparison of older, studded models to current ones also seem inaccurate. What often is ignored is that we are comparing pure looks (current models) to looks + a social construct. What do I mean by a social construct? Historical models will always hold a place in our hearts because they carry personal or social meaning to us (i.e. they are a "classic"). Regardless of its actual looks, no one will dare say that 8880 is not even close to as good looking to modern MOC supercars, because it is a "classic" (even if it were true) and one would be lambasted by the community for not continuing its glory. A glory we all share because it has historical ties to it.... our childhood, first lego model, etc.......Current models can't be compared to this. So the comparison is not objective. It carries a huge bias.

The problem is we do this in just about everything we own, the things we brought in our youth (and I'm a lady of half a century plus) will always be classic's because in someways we miss them, and all the extra work that they involved, as an example, my first car was started with a starting handle and on a winters morning could take 15 mins or more to start, my current car starts itself in seconds automatically when I sit in the drivers seat, a lot easier, but I still miss those that first car and all the extra effort that it entailed.

Lego has come along in the same way, you have to rule out AFOL's (and us LFOL's), there primary market is NOT us, and in today's market there is a lot more competition out there so they need to sets that appeal to the widest possible audience, and one of the ways they do this is to make models look like the real thing by using panels, in my view it was a move they had to adopt if they wanted to keep peoples interest up when making a model, I'll quite happily sit here and pin together numerous beams to get a nice flat surface, the average 14 year old won't they need instant gratification and by using panels, Lego has given them that.

[DrJB]

This post seems to have taken a drastic turn. Not for the better, not for the worse, just a drastic turn. Not sure how much any of it applies anymore to the original. I have been following this post for a while, not quite sure how to respond b/c of the changes.

The initial post asked the question if TLG was catching the status of modern MOCers.

Thank you, that's exactly the point behind this thread (at least, what I intended).

I did not want this discussion to become: panels vs. no panels, classic vs. studless, LA's vs pneumatics. There are so many of those threads already. I am more interested in how the community perceived the change from skeletal to panelized (?) designs, or possibly what drove such 'evolution'. But again, this is a dynamic discussion forum, and sometimes these discussions tend to evolve beyond the OP's intention.

The reason my original title included supercars is, historically, most MOCs out there are about cars. Only recently we've started seeing trucks and other vehicles.

*peace*

Edited April 20, 2016 by DrJB

[Alasdair Ryan]

I will first like to separate style A as "studded" and style B as "studless", then say that I really don't care what style, I like both styles if done well.

The majority of members here are ether going to love style A or Style B,both styles of building have iconic sets like the space shuttle (90's) or the backhoe loader (00's).

[Blakbird]

Aren't "hiding the functions" and "realism" also functions, in a way?

To me "functions" are things that move. Realism is not a function. It is a desirable goal, but not a function.

I did not want this discussion to become: panels vs. no panels, classic vs. studless, LA's vs pneumatics. There are so many of those threads already. I am more interested in how the community perceived the change from skeletal to panelized (?) designs, or possibly what drove such 'evolution'. But again, this is a dynamic discussion forum, and sometimes these discussions tend to evolve beyond the OP's intention.

I don't personally think that the LEGO designers are influenced all that much by the AFOL community. Firstly, we are not the target audience for their designs. More importantly, I think they are just as good or better than any MOCer but are constrained by the rules of their job (part count, durability, etc.). I don't think fans had anything to do with the evolution of the "standard" design over time. After all, we can only build with the parts that have been released whereas they can suggest new parts.

The one exception is allanp who singlehandedly forced the creation of longer pneumatics. He has more power than any of us and is probably part of the Illuminati.

[Didumos69]

This post seems to have taken a drastic turn. Not for the better, not for the worse, just a drastic turn. Not sure how much any of it applies anymore to the original. I have been following this post for a while, not quite sure how to respond b/c of the changes.

The initial post asked the question if TLG was catching the status of modern MOCers. Yes... the title indicates supercars, which is incorrect, but I think what the OP wanted to target was Lego Technic in general. Is it catching up to the looks and functions of the MOCers. IMO - no. And likely never will. Technic models put out by TLG have many, many limitations on them, which MOCers don't necessarily share. Too many limitations to list. Safety, cost effectiveness, can it be easily reproduced, time, etc the list goes on and on. Kinda common sense stuff here. Not really fair to compare the two.

The question of adding panels and how it relates to looks is kinda a weird discussion IMO. To me it completely seems just a matter of personal opinion. There is no right or wrong. Comparison of older, studded models to current ones also seem inaccurate. What often is ignored is that we are comparing pure looks (current models) to looks + a social construct. What do I mean by a social construct? Historical models will always hold a place in our hearts because they carry personal or social meaning to us (i.e. they are a "classic"). Regardless of its actual looks, no one will dare say that 8880 is not even close to as good looking to modern MOC supercars, because it is a "classic" (even if it were true) and one would be lambasted by the community for not continuing its glory. A glory we all share because it has historical ties to it.... our childhood, first lego model, etc.......Current models can't be compared to this. So the comparison is not objective. It carries a huge bias.

I think you have put exactly the right perspective to the topic.

Having said that, I would like to add one more thing: Lego is all about making 'models'. And to me (sorry, I have an engineering background) 'model' means: Simplification of a system (or thing) that brings about one or more aspects of that system's (or thing's) nature. Models allow us to zoom in on certain aspects while leaving other aspects out. So it's all about what exactly do you want to tell with your model. Take a look at Nico71's Mechanical Calculator. It's an amazing machine and we probably all regard it as something beautiful. Not because of it's looks, but because of what it can do, and that it can be done with Lego bricks. So in this case Nico71 zoomed in on the 'how it works'-aspect rather than the aesthetic aspect.

Now when it comes to cars, there is something delicate going on: There are typically two prevailing - yet quite opposed - aspects that make a car appealing: 1) the looks and 2) what's inside. On the one hand a car should look smooth as if it was cut from a single piece of stone and shaped by the wind. On the other hand it should cover up as many nifty features and powerfull functions as possible. So when it comes to supercars, it doesn't amaze me that using panels has gained popularity over the years. They make it possible to address both aspects.

Personally, being an old-school Lego fan, I like it the most when a Lego model captures the essence of a car - be it a real car or an imaginary car - with a minimal set of lines. Just like a portrait painting, it doesn't need to be as realistic as a photo, as long as it captures the essence.

Source: http://www.scottdesi...-im-working-on/

EDIT: I would like to add one more thing: When I started regaining interest in Lego Technic, all Lego supercars I found on the internet appeared to me as insects - also the more recent ones. I had to get used to them first before I started to actually perceive them as great designs. Just to illustrate that it's all a matter of perception.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Didumos69

[Jim]

I can change the title to something more appropriate. Let me know.