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Two-Faced Batman Fan

It wouldn't be stealing, would it?

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So I was at Ross today lokking for good deals, and while I was browsing I stumbled upon a LEGO bag with a few pieces in it. I picked it up and immediately recognized what set it was from. This one:

http://www.brickset.com/search.aspx?Set=4750-1

So looked around to see if I could find any other remains of it, and nothing. I figured someone had already bought the set opened and left one of the bags by mistake. I took the bag anyway. I figured, no one would've been able to buy it anyway so why leave a bag there with valuable pieces that I needed :-/ . It came with the Malfoy minifig a few of those pieces and the cape. Lucky for me I had needed that Malfoy minifig and that cape. So what would you have done in that situation? I want your opinion.

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i don't know what Ross is. i presume its a toy store, and hopefully not your friend's name... otherwise this line is just >:-)

So I was at Ross today lokking for good deals

:-D :-D :-D i know i always go to my friend's house looking for good deals too !!! :-D :-D :-D

in either case, i think you got the five-finger-discount !!!

- BrickMiner

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well my freind what you have on your hands (besides blood) is an issue of ethics. You must ak your self under what circumstances, if any, is it right to steal? Well a more common example is lying. Most people agree that its only right to lie in an instance where being sincere could effect another person/s in a negative way. For instance; telling your aunt you dont like her cooking could make her go into a state of shock where all she does is mope around and drink and eat exessively, and because you're aware of her fragile psychological state you tell her the opposite for her own good. However, as for stealing, i cant think of one case where that would be alright, and i dont think your decision to steal that bag (then essentially "brag" that you got free bricks on this forum) was ethical. If you had left the bag and nobody else stole it, the customer may have returned and complained about the missing pieces and having found the misplaced bag one of the staff could have given it to him or atleast confirmed that he was telling the truth. But its too late to change what you did, instead of dwelling on the past, lets look at the possible reprucussions step by step.

1. you steal bag

2. kid makes a trip back to store concerning missing bag, company refuses to replace, hence mom wasted a bunch of gas driving to the store

3. kid calls lego company to replace bag

4. lego gives him a whole new set (you know they would...)

5. kid desides to take advantage of the lego company again and gets anoher free bag, claiming he was missing a piece from another set

6. lego does it

7. kids mom gets mad at kid and never buys him lego again

8. kid seeks reveenge on lego for being gullable

9. kid (now adult) becomes megablocks CEO

10: kid (now adult) makes mega blocks very lucrative (not sure if thats the right word)

11. Megablock buys out lego

12. No more great lego products

Now look what you've done! Are you happy now? TLC doesn't exist anymore and its your fault! >:(

But in all seriousness, i think most of us would do the same thing.

Edited by john cleese

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well my freind what you have on your hands (besides blood) is an issue of ethics. You must ak your self under what circumstances, if any, is it right to steal? Well a more common example is lying. Most people agree that its only right to lie in an instance where being sincere could effect another person/s in a negative way. For instance; telling your aunt you dont like her cooking could make her go into a state of shock where all she does is mope around and drink and eat exessively, and because you're aware of her fragile psychological state you tell her the opposite for her own good. However, as for stealing, i cant think of one case where that would be alright, and i dont think your decision to steal that bag (then essentially "brag" that you got free bricks on this forum) was ethical. If you had left the bag and nobody else stole it, the customer may have returned and complained about the missing pieces and having found the misplaced bag one of the staff could have given it to him or atleast confirmed that he was telling the truth. But its to late to change what ou did, instead of dwelling on the past, lets look at the possible reprucussions step by step.

1. you steal bag

2. kid makes a trip back to store concerning missing bag, company refuses to replace, hence mom wasted a bunch of gas driving to the store

3. kid calls lego company to replace bag

4. lego gives him a whole new set (you know they would...)

5. kid desides to take advantage of the lego company again and gets anoher free bag, claiming he was missing a piece from another set

6. lego does it

7. kids mom gets mad at kid and never buys him lego again

8. kid seeks reveenge on lego for being gullable

9. kid (now adult) becomes megablocks CEO

10: kid (now adult) makes mega blocks very lucrative (not sure if thats the right word)

11. Megablock buys out lego

12. No more great lego products

Now look what you've done! Are you happy now? TLC doesn't exist anymore and its your fault! >:(

But in all seriousness, i think most of us would do the same thing.

lol! i would do the same too ;-)

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You could at least have asked the store keeper or one of the shop assistants what the deal was with the loose bag and ask if it would be OK to take it or pay a discounted price. The 4750 has been on clearance sale here in The Netherlands for about $5 a piece. Last time I looked they were all gone. I think you could have had the one bag for let's say a buck or perhaps for free if you explained things.

That is what I would have done.

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1. dont ask for moral opinion from an online forum.

2. was it one bag or several bags? i thought TLC separate minifig sections into different bags to prevent theft. my minifigs have come in different bags (head in bag 1, torso in bag 2 and legs in bag 3) in all the sets i purchased. even small sets have minifig parts in at least 2 separate bags.

3. if several bags...?!?!?!?! really?

i stole sets when i was young...not bags, but whole set with box. it got addictive...then i was caught. i was glad because it was getting out of control. storekeeper let me go but not before my dad had to come pick me up and pay for what i stole. it was embarassing but it also woke me up and taught me a valuable lesson before i can be legally incarcerated.

theft is bad as it increases insurance/cost for the store. the cost will be passed down to consumers or absorbed by the store. the store may go bankrupt or cost increased. either way your action will affect more people than you think.

there are many forms of theft.

1. taking the entire box.

2. ripping boxes open and taking some bags from the boxes.

3. changing the bar code.

4. purchasing the box, go home, open it, take bags out, reseal box and return box for refund.

5. calling up customer support and demand for replacement when there is no perfect reason to.

if you want sets, earn it. there are so many ways to do it. mow lawns, run errants, wash cars. and you will appreciate your hard work. life isnt free. are you going to steal to provide for your family? do you want to live fast, die young?

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Its wrong to steal!! do you hear me?! >:-(

So send me the bag and ill make sure it gets back to the store owner...... >:-) ;-) X-D

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I did take one MF shield once in a shop, it was the exact same thing. It was lying somewhere. Oh well, big deal. This topic shows you feel guilty, which shows you are now thinking about is righ to do and what is not. Which is the most important thing. It also shows that you better not have to steal something because you couldn't live with it anyway...

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If you hadn't taken it, someone else would have. That doesn't make it absolutely fine though....I would have asked someone at the store before I took it. Unless you can't live with yourself, don't bother going back now, that'll look weird. But next time, y'know.

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I don't agree with stealing, but a small bag from such a small set really would not matter that much. the shop would have sold it to you for a small price i am sure. also i noticed natelite say that all his minifigs come in separate bags. this is true with most sets but the new star destroyer all the figs and their weapons come in one bag! now that must be a thief's dream come true :-D

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I took the bag anyway. I figured, no one would've been able to buy it anyway ...

How do you know that if you didn't ask the price yourself? Maybe they would have sold it, in which case, it does have a value.

...Maybe you didn't ask anyone because you were afraid they'd actually say it did cost something...

...guilt or ignorance? is there a difference?...

Ross is a used/discount item store, so I'd not at all be surprised at them selling a bag of legos who's box had been damanged...

of course there are other ways of looking at things... Don't let me judge you... I think ethics are subjective, to each his own

consider this perspective: is there such a thing as doing good for the sake of goodness? or would your prefer doing good for the sake of the ends it causes?

If you believe in an absolute good, then yer in trouble.

If you believe in weighing the consequences, well, you didn't caught, and a set that was already damaged and in a secondhand store doesn't affect TLC sales.

As long as we are playing with Ethics here's another brain teaser for you:

is taking advantage of barcodes stealing, or barter?

Consider, when an erroneous barcode is on the item, the clerk scans it, sees the price displayed, and asks you to pay that amount. When you pay that amount and he accepts, are you not both Agreeing upon that price for the item? Very much like a barter system.

What if you intentionally altered the barcode in question? What if it was just wrong by their mistake and no action of yours? Either way the transaction went the same, its just a matter of intent...

Yeah, you can debate that one for a long time....

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As long as we are playing with Ethics here's another brain teaser for you:

is taking advantage of barcodes stealing, or barter?

Consider, when an erroneous barcode is on the item, the clerk scans it, sees the price displayed, and asks you to pay that amount. When you pay that amount and he accepts, are you not both Agreeing upon that price for the item? Very much like a barter system.

What if you intentionally altered the barcode in question? What if it was just wrong by their mistake and no action of yours? Either way the transaction went the same, its just a matter of intent...

Yeah, you can debate that one for a long time....

erroneous barcode? that's not your fault. if they dont know any better, it's not your fault. it's like buying from an uneducated seller. people sell gems for peanuts all the time. antique or second hand stores or pawn shops are a good example. they have an idea of what an item is worth when the purchase from sellers. the sellers usually dont. if you sold your grandma's jewelry box for peanuts, do they actually tell you that they are ripping you off? in the same sense, if you spot a valuable from an antique shop would you not buy it? would you instead warn the store about the value and pay for the right price?

it all boils down to whether both parties agreed to the price they were transacting at. in the first instance, the store tagged the wrong price to the set but they knew about the price. if you bought it, you were buying from an uneducated seller. in the second instance, you were delibrately cheating the seller into thinking they were selling another item to you. that is stealing. for eg, there was a story where a man went to every target, tru, walmart and replaced the barcode of the millenium falcon with the barcode of the mini millenium falcon. the price difference was of course $90 (the mf playset was $100 vs the mini of $10). that is deceit and theft, and he was eventually caught and went to jail. if a store were to tag the mf playset with a price of $10, then buying it is your gain.

buying/selling from ebay is a good example. would you ever question the price listed by the seller? if you got a bargain at a price agreed with the seller, for eg a "but it now" at a ridiculous price will you offer instead to pay the seller more?

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... thinking they were selling another item to you. ...

I'm not so sure about that one, I mean, the clerk has EYES doesnt he? He can see what he'e selling and what the price on the barcode is; versus what he remembers the price on the inventory was.

If you were to hide items inside a different box, then yeah I'd agree that you're 'cheating him into thinking it's something else'. But here everything is out in the open and so obvious; all he has to do is say... 'that price seems off, let me do a price check'.

I seriously think that in the Millenium Falcon incident the cashier was negligent and almost certainly part at fault. (or maybe even a disgruntled employee who intentionally let it go) because seriously... a box that big for 10$?? what kind of moron would believe that?

humh

...Maybe when store's start treating their employees like machines, they start acting like machines; and 'turn off' their common sense...

Okay, heres a slightly different situation.

Suppose a customer changes a barcode to be a lower price. And as he is buying he directly says to the clerk 'I would like to buy this for $5. Is that OK with you?' (quoting the lower price). Now the customer has made a direct request for the lower price and the clerk is actually saying that he agrees to it. Now perhaps the stores did not train their clerks well enough to give them the competence to ever consider beyond the scanner barcode... but regradless he has agreed to the price requested.

Personally, I'd think that this example totally changes it, to place the blame onto the poorly designed system; of having a clerk who represents the store and has authority to make sales, yet has not been trained to be anything more than an extention of the barcode machine....

It has always fascinated me, how in the past Barter was common, but nowadays people pay marked prices from barcodes without question. No one ever attempts to ask for a lower price.

Technically, the barcode is just a store policy, not a law. It is Policy to exchange for the price on the barcode scanner, but not Law; if you can get the clerk to agree to a different price and break store policy, well....

...devil's advocate is fun in debates...

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I did take one MF shield once in a shop, it was the exact same thing. It was lying somewhere. Oh well, big deal. This topic shows you feel guilty, which shows you are now thinking about is righ to do and what is not. Which is the most important thing. It also shows that you better not have to steal something because you couldn't live with it anyway...

well it doesnt seem to me like he feels guilty, it seems like hes trying to justify his actions, which were immoral and trying to convince other people to agree that his actions were justified so he can go to bed with a clear consciense. In fact it seems to me like hes just bragging about how he got a bag of free bricks.If he was truly feeling guilty he would go back to ross' and tell them what he did, he wouldnt go posting it on a forum. But once again, i think most of us would do the same.

in response to Xenologer: Well the thing is the clerk doesnt get to decide the price; he does not control the means of production, he is not trusted by the corporatin he works for, with the responsibility of putting prices on items, and therefore he doesnt have any control over the price of any item in that store. And If he did sell the item for that price and his employer discovered that he had intentionally sold an item for a lower price than the one selected by the store, he would probably be fired right on the spot.

The reason we dont see bartering in stores like Ross' and TrU is because its not the cashiers porogative to determine the price of an item, its somebody else's (and sure you can 'try' to barter with him.). However we still do see bartering done in privately owned kiosks at the flea market, and some privately owned shops where the customer and Manager interact directly. So we still do have some bartering.

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... thinking they were selling another item to you. ...

I'm not so sure about that one, I mean, the clerk has EYES doesnt he? He can see what he'e selling and what the price on the barcode is; versus what he remembers the price on the inventory was.

If you were to hide items inside a different box, then yeah I'd agree that you're 'cheating him into thinking it's something else'. But here everything is out in the open and so obvious; all he has to do is say... 'that price seems off, let me do a price check'.

I seriously think that in the Millenium Falcon incident the cashier was negligent and almost certainly part at fault. (or maybe even a disgruntled employee who intentionally let it go) because seriously... a box that big for 10$?? what kind of moron would believe that?

humh

...Maybe when store's start treating their employees like machines, they start acting like machines; and 'turn off' their common sense...

Okay, heres a slightly different situation.

Suppose a customer changes a barcode to be a lower price. And as he is buying he directly says to the clerk 'I would like to buy this for $5. Is that OK with you?' (quoting the lower price). Now the customer has made a direct request for the lower price and the clerk is actually saying that he agrees to it. Now perhaps the stores did not train their clerks well enough to give them the competence to ever consider beyond the scanner barcode... but regradless he has agreed to the price requested.

Personally, I'd think that this example totally changes it, to place the blame onto the poorly designed system; of having a clerk who represents the store and has authority to make sales, yet has not been trained to be anything more than an extention of the barcode machine....

It has always fascinated me, how in the past Barter was common, but nowadays people pay marked prices from barcodes without question. No one ever attempts to ask for a lower price.

Technically, the barcode is just a store policy, not a law. It is Policy to exchange for the price on the barcode scanner, but not Law; if you can get the clerk to agree to a different price and break store policy, well....

...devil's advocate is fun in debates...

no cashier will ever remember the store price of the entire inventory on sale. i dont think your point of having "eyes" is valid. plus most folks working in a walmart probably didnt even have a high school diploma. they wont know the difference of a $10 lego set from a $100 lego set as long as the names matched. disgruntled? unlikely. uninformed? most definitely. if you dont dumb down most jobs, you'd have to pay top dollars for the college degree. how do you expect to motivate and keep those staff in what essentially is a monotonous job?

bartering with a cashier working in a megastore? uh....it's far fetched...and no employee will ever take that kind of responsibility. "i dunno...i just work here..." is probably the best answer you can get.

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I did take one MF shield once in a shop, it was the exact same thing. It was lying somewhere. Oh well, big deal. This topic shows you feel guilty, which shows you are now thinking about is righ to do and what is not. Which is the most important thing. It also shows that you better not have to steal something because you couldn't live with it anyway...

well it doesnt seem to me like he feels guilty, it seems like hes trying to justify his actions, which were immoral and trying to convince other people to agree that his actions were justified so he can go to bed with a clear consciense. In fact it seems to me like hes just bragging about how he got a bag of free bricks.If he was truly feeling guilty he would go back to ross' and tell them what he did, he wouldnt go posting it on a forum. But once again, i think most of us would do the same.

My answer was sarcastic...

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Ye,s thank you for the suggestion, now I'll put a giant sign before and after X-D

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no cashier will ever remember the store price of the entire inventory on sale. i dont think your point of having "eyes" is valid. plus most folks working in a walmart probably didnt even have a high school diploma. they wont know the difference of a $10 lego set from a $100 lego set as long as the names matched. disgruntled? unlikely. uninformed? most definitely. if you dont dumb down most jobs, you'd have to pay top dollars for the college degree. how do you expect to motivate and keep those staff in what essentially is a monotonous job?

bartering with a cashier working in a megastore? uh....it's far fetched...and no employee will ever take that kind of responsibility. "i dunno...i just work here..." is probably the best answer you can get.

I don't think you give these people enough credit... Just because someone lacks a college degree, and works in retail doesn't make him a complete idiot. People know the value of money, its just common sense. Even if they don't have a BA degree in Lego's they'd still notice relative price to sizes for the other lego sets that pass by everyday.

switching sides

The point with asking the "I'd like to buy this item for x$" question, is not to actually have the clerk make a thoughtful descision, but to have him go into 'robot mode', scan the item and see that your request matches the bad barcode and just say 'yes' without thinking it thru. Thus even though he is not expected or trained to barter, he has done so inadvertantly (thanks to your Carefully worded question). Despite lack of training or expection, they still represent the store authority since they Do handle the transactions. Thus you can trick the store into agreeing to a bad price, by taking advantage of this flaw in their authority delegation system. My theory is that by twisting it this way, it becomes legal, (but still not ethical).

ON Topic:

I haven't heard any responce at all from the OP... suppose we scared him away with our torches and pitchforks? :-D ohwell....

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I don't think you give these people enough credit... Just because someone lacks a college degree, and works in retail doesn't make him a complete idiot. People know the value of money, its just common sense. Even if they don't have a BA degree in Lego's they'd still notice relative price to sizes for the other lego sets that pass by everyday.

switching sides

The point with asking the "I'd like to buy this item for x$" question, is not to actually have the clerk make a thoughtful descision, but to have him go into 'robot mode', scan the item and see that your request matches the bad barcode and just say 'yes' without thinking it thru. Thus even though he is not expected or trained to barter, he has done so inadvertantly (thanks to your Carefully worded question). Despite lack of training or expection, they still represent the store authority since they Do handle the transactions. Thus you can trick the store into agreeing to a bad price, by taking advantage of this flaw in their authority delegation system. My theory is that by twisting it this way, it becomes legal, (but still not ethical).

ON Topic:

I haven't heard any responce at all from the OP... suppose we scared him away with our torches and pitchforks? :-D ohwell....

i dont think lego sets are sold that frequently that every cashier in the walmart store would know. seriously. even tru where all they do is sell toys dont know lego prices. i dealt with them before and it was a pain explaining "same price exchange" concept. trust me...they ARE that mechanical. even the so-called store "MANAGER" is not a semi-lit bulb herself.

your second point does not hold water. it is still fraud in the legal sense. getting someone to agree based on lies and deceit is fraud. why do you think people who pretended to be arab royalties to get favors were charged with fraud?

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hmmmh

i guess a good way to think of it is, its not fraud if its something that is obvious and any reasonalby informed guy would catch onto

but since nowadays clerks are Not expected to barter, and Not expected to actually know prices, (they're trained to Trust the scanner) then to take advantage of that system, (as dumb as it is) is considered fraud by the expectations and standards of modern retail system

ohwell

I'd still have fired the clerk in the Millenium Falcon incident anyways... sure... he's not trained or expected to see past obvious price differences... but still... ZOMG! how dumb do you need to be to fall for that?

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Come to think of it, what WAS that guy's name? The one who pulled the MF scam? It may have been immoral, but you have to admit, it was ingenius. I just feel bad for all those people who ordered them from his Bricklink store who never got the product or the refund... *sad*

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MF scam? Please, enlighten me...

Awhile ago, someone would print up hundreds of bar codes of the Millenium Falcon on stickers, go into stores and place HIS barcode (that he copied from one original set he bought legitimately) over the real barcode. However the barcode he placed over was from a $10US set! So he bought literally HUNDREDS of Millenium Falcons from stores around the US for $10US a piece, and sold them on bricklink! He was finally caught when an employee was paying attention, and they checked security cams

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