To tumblehome or to not tumblehome...

[Moomin]

Hi.

Firstly, sorry if this is in the wrong place...

I've been working on my brig-of -war (The Parrot) - http://www.eurobrick...showtopic=90091 - and have considered adding a tumblehome. Was messing around this evening, and to be honest, really not sure if it works with this vessel - sorry, no pics of my efforts.

I am trying to make this at least mildly historically accurate - would a fairly large brig/sloop/corvette normally have a tumblehome? I've looked at some pics on the net, and whilst it is clear some 'smaller' vessels clearly did, it is really hard to tell on others - the cherokee and cruizer class brigs, for example.

Many thanks.

[2maxwell]

From what I know, most sloops of war did have tumblehomes. Every cross section of one I've seen has featured one. However, in many of them, the tumblehome is fairly slight. Many times, you can't really tell from paintings, so clearly the tumblehomes on them weren't drastic. If you're not happy with any of the tumblehome designs you've come up with, don't beat yourself up over it; I don't think its necessary.

Edited January 17, 2014 by 2maxwell

[Kolonialbeamter]

Hi there,

my two cents: If your ship features a single open gun deck (like the Parrot), I don't deem it necessary.

On my brig Belle Poule I applied a hinged design, but it's marginal.

Regards

[Captain Becker]

The ship you are working on, the parrot dosent necessarily need a tumblehome at all. For example: Perfectionist did also his brig or ketch whitout one, can show you any pictures as it seems he have deleted his Flickr page, nd none of the pictures are availeble anymore.. Ofcourse you can add a tumblehome if you want to, but that would mean desining maby the whole ship again and start from scratch. IMHO I dont recommend adding a tumblehome. She is fine how she is right now.

Also, I dont know if youre familiar whit the TV series called: Hornblower. I have started to watch the series again, and it shows that a sloop of war called: Hotspur have a tumblehome in it, but note the desing of the ship! It has three mast for example, and reminds more like a frigate than a sloop.

Captain Becker

EDIT: Heres the episode in case youre wondering, its episode 7 called: Duty and its an hour and a half long. Higly recommend watching these as they provide great inspiration.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Captain Becker

[Sebeus I]

I think it's perfectly justified to leave your brig of war without a tumblehome,

eventhough I reckon a historical ship a tumblehome anyway.

[2maxwell]

Also, I dont know if youre familiar whit the TV series called: Hornblower. I have started to watch the series again, and it shows that a sloop of war called: Hotspur have a tumblehome in it, but note the desing of the ship! It has three mast for example, and reminds more like a frigate than a sloop.

Hornblower is a great series! Have you ever read the books? Anyway, the Hotspur is actually a sloop of war, which are usually larger than tradition sloops. Larger sloops of war, with their longer hulls, typically had 3 masts, and this became the norm after the 1750s.

[Moomin]

From what I know, most sloops of war did have tumblehomes. Every cross section of one I've seen has featured one. However, in many of them, the tumblehome is fairly slight. Many times, you can't really tell from paintings, so clearly the tumblehomes on them weren't drastic. If you're not happy with any of the tumblehome designs you've come up with, don't beat yourself up over it; I don't think its necessary.

Thanks - I have now looked at some more cross sections, and see that tumblehomes, whilst present, were really minimal on smaller vessels.

Hi there,

my two cents: If your ship features a single open gun deck (like the Parrot), I don't deem it necessary.

On my brig Belle Poule I applied a hinged design, but it's marginal.

Regards

Thanks - this is again useful - I agree with the inference that on a ship with more than a single, open deck no tumblehome would be inaccurate, and look improper (I'm not criticising anyone who may have done this, but just trying to ascertain what was realistic - there are great MOCs of all kinds out there, of course!). Kinda coming to the opinion that often the tumblehome was so slight, it was hard to notice on smaller ships.

[Moomin]

The ship you are working on, the parrot dosent necessarily need a tumblehome at all. For example: Perfectionist did also his brig or ketch whitout one, can show you any pictures as it seems he have deleted his Flickr page, nd none of the pictures are availeble anymore.. Ofcourse you can add a tumblehome if you want to, but that would mean desining maby the whole ship again and start from scratch. IMHO I dont recommend adding a tumblehome. She is fine how she is right now.

Also, I dont know if youre familiar whit the TV series called: Hornblower. I have started to watch the series again, and it shows that a sloop of war called: Hotspur have a tumblehome in it, but note the desing of the ship! It has three mast for example, and reminds more like a frigate than a sloop.

Captain Becker

EDIT: Heres the episode in case youre wondering, its episode 7 called: Duty and its an hour and a half long. Higly recommend watching these as they provide great inspiration.

Hey! Thanks for this - Awesome series, and watched 'em all! I thought the main actor (Ioan Gruffudd) wanted to make more, or even a big Hornblower movie... this was ages ago though, and nothing lately has been said... I guess things like this are so costly to produce. Anyway - Def will take a look at 'Duty' again: I checked some pics of HMS Hotspur on the net and see the tumblehome clearly, but agree with you that this is more like a frigate: it seems to have a quarterdeck and a (small) forecastle: I note that it had 20 guns, would so JUST slip into the 'post ship' bracket, technically;-).

I suppose what I am saying here is that the Hotspur is a league above the Parrot - having considered all the advice, I generally agree that I am OK with no tumblehome on a ship of this size.

Should anyone read this in the future, It seems to be the case that for anything more than a single-decked, open-decked ship (if that is what you want to build), it would be unrealistic to not add the tumblehome.

[Moomin]

Hornblower is a great series! Have you ever read the books? Anyway, the Hotspur is actually a sloop of war, which are usually larger than tradition sloops. Larger sloops of war, with their longer hulls, typically had 3 masts, and this became the norm after the 1750s.

Hi! sorry - know this was not to me directly, but yes- loved hornblower! shame they didn't make more... Never read any books, but well into the Patrick O'Brian series - Ionian Mission now - about 1/3rd through. Love them big time. Some find them hard going: huge sections on sociopolitical, marital, scientific matters and other non-naval things. Will def check out The Hornblower novels also - my dad recommended them also, and he was a sailor;-). M.

[Moomin]

I think it's perfectly justified to leave your brig of war without a tumblehome,

eventhough I reckon a historical ship a tumblehome anyway.

Thanks Sebeus I. To be honest, glad most of you guys feel that it is OK without - or at lest reasonable. I think that to do it properly with my particular vessel, I would need a (pretty much) total rebuild, and at the moment do like the lines of my brig.

[Moomin]

Ok... So, distilling the advice, is it fair to say then that for historically (semi) accurate builds:

1. The vast majority of small ships - i.e. below frigate size - DID have tumblehomes BUT...

2. Often the tumblehome was very unpronounced, to the point where on a lego MOC it would not be noticeable, so need not be added (unless you wish to, of course!);

3. A ship with more than one flush deck (frigate and above, i suppose) should certainly have a tumblehome

I apologise if I'm being overly prescriptive here, but do like to nail things down - may help other builders who are just staring out in the future. I stress that this is for people who want to build models that are historically accurate to some degree - not get in the way of other ship MOCs - many of which are amazingly good.

M.

[Moomin]

The ship you are working on, the parrot dosent necessarily need a tumblehome at all. For example: Perfectionist did also his brig or ketch whitout one, can show you any pictures as it seems he have deleted his Flickr page, nd none of the pictures are availeble anymore.. Ofcourse you can add a tumblehome if you want to, but that would mean desining maby the whole ship again and start from scratch. IMHO I dont recommend adding a tumblehome. She is fine how she is right now.

Also, I dont know if youre familiar whit the TV series called: Hornblower. I have started to watch the series again, and it shows that a sloop of war called: Hotspur have a tumblehome in it, but note the desing of the ship! It has three mast for example, and reminds more like a frigate than a sloop.

Captain Becker

EDIT: Heres the episode in case youre wondering, its episode 7 called: Duty and its an hour and a half long. Higly recommend watching these as they provide great inspiration.

Thanks for the link! You inspired me, and just watched 'Duty' again - great episode. Looking at all the action and general goings on on board, definitely clear to me that the 'Hotspur' (and the wrecked 'grasshopper' - also referred to as a sloop) is a more substantial ship than the one that I am trying to produce. Interestingly, I note that the 12 pounder guns (like the one that nearly squashed the new steward!) are not actually that big - way, way smaller in scale terms than the regular Lego ones - still wouldn't want one falling on me, mind!;-).

On the subject of cannons, I took a couple of (poor quality) photos of 6 and 12 pounder barrels at the armoury museum in Copenhagen a few months ago - will upload at some point - give an idea of relative scale.

Kind regards,

M.

[Sebeus I]

Ok... So, distilling the advice, is it fair to say then that for historically (semi) accurate builds:

1. The vast majority of small ships - i.e. below frigate size - DID have tumblehomes BUT...

2. Often the tumblehome was very unpronounced, to the point where on a lego MOC it would not be noticeable, so need not be added (unless you wish to, of course!);

3. A ship with more than one flush deck (frigate and above, i suppose) should certainly have a tumblehome

That's a pretty good criterium I think

[Matteo1130]

Agree. In my cutter there isn't any tumblehome. It is built just with small bow+stern and all the guns are uncovered.. and looks great to me. Your moc looks splendid as is, nice clear lines.

Edit: the only thing I would change is to make the gunline rounder, not by changing the shape, but sligthly changing colors. For example you may change from white to black a plate to separate the white line from the brown hull. You may also change the black line between the gunline and the hull: now the change between black and brown is really dramatic and straight, simply changing some plate in a different color you may draw a soft line, creating the illusion of a slightly bent hull. But this is just a suggestion :)

Edited January 20, 2014 by Matteo1130

[Moomin]

That's a pretty good criterium I think

Thanks Sebeus I - think it may be useful to have at least rough criteria for historical builds - don't want to get all 'Star Trek' about this, and the info on the master index is already excellent, but have spent a long time researching even to get to this point. About 6 months ago I was totally unfamiliar with the rating system; wouldn't have even understood what a tumblehome was; what constituted a brig; sizes of guns on a frigate etc etc... this sort of discussion may save time for people.

Cheers,

M.

Agree. In my cutter there isn't any tumblehome. It is built just with small bow+stern and all the guns are uncovered.. and looks great to me. Your moc looks splendid as is, nice clear lines.

Edit: the only thing I would change is to make the gunline rounder, not by changing the shape, but sligthly changing colors. For example you may change from white to black a plate to separate the white line from the brown hull. You may also change the black line between the gunline and the hull: now the change between black and brown is really dramatic and straight, simply changing some plate in a different color you may draw a soft line, creating the illusion of a slightly bent hull. But this is just a suggestion :)

Thanks! this is great! I'm seriously re-working at the moment, and may well adopt your advice: I agree that it seems with lego ships, altering the colour - particularly along the lines - can have dramatic and positive effects - looking at some other builds:-). I've just ordered a lot of flush base plates to deck the ship, re-worked the bow and (slightly) extended the rear cabin towards the bow (hardly noticeable) to create a bit more space there (it was either that or lose it completely, but I like the 'fun' factor of having a Captain's cabin). With the bow re working, the ship now appears somewhat longer, and seriously thinking about a third mast; will always be single decked though, under my plans.

Thanks,

M.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Moomin