Thundercats Art Director Thinks Chima Is A Ripoff

[Suspsy]

https://www.facebook.com/Dingo107/posts/10151348436755909

Um, I guess we don't have to worry about WB finishing ThunderCats. Seems that Lego has decided to go ahead with their version since WB couldn't work out a deal with them. Look at the Young Lion Prince Laval, no similarities there eh?! That's not a Thunder Tank is it? Hmmmm.... Whaaaatever.

Anthropomorphic animals are nothing new, so it's not like there's any chance of a court case here. Just a whole lot of sour grapes.

[Hobbestimus]

FWIW, I'm active on several fansites for 80s properties, and someone on every board who knows I'm into Lego has come up to me and said, "Look, Lego ripped of Thundercats."

But they said, "Lego ripped of Filmation's Ghostbusters" when Monster Fighters came out and more than one person has compared Ninjago to Power Rangers.

Nothing in the world is truly and uniquely original. Everything borrows from what came before. People are naturally going to draw comparisons when the see them. I wouldn't try to turn it into a brickmeasuring contest between fandoms or companies or anything.

[DraikNova]

Kind of silly. It's like saying that every concept featuring humanoid animals is a ripoff of "Red Riding Hood". BTW, I can't see that facebook post. Was it deleted?

Edited January 4, 2013 by DraikNova

[Pulp Detective]

And?As long as the theme makes good sales on the market nobody cares about the haters.What about ninjago??I can cleary say that it's a rip off of TMNT.

[Peppermint_M]

Right.

Anthropomorphised Lion Prince

Has a Sword

Adventure

Animal themed vehicles

-

Differences:

Silly quest to beat evil frogs/Lizards and Saber Fanged Tiger

Sword and Book with Eyeball on

Tiger, Kitten and Leopard people

Singular power crystals

MUMM-RA THE EVERLIVING!!!

---

Speedorz

Chi

Chi-spheres

Competition

Wide Variety of Anthropomorphised creatures

So, you know. Thundercats totally has the monopoly on animals with swords yah?

[Bfahome]

Kinda like how rabid LEGO fans think Mega Bloks rips off LEGO themes all the time.

Everyone's always using everyone else's ideas, just in different manners. No concept is ever going to be uniquely inspired and isolated from everything around it.

[Amset-Rah]

I know we crossed this bridge back when the prelims came out. In fact I think I said the lion faction had a Thundercats vibe to them, but that's where the similarity ends. Did any incarnation of Thundercats (80s or 2011/12) have crocodiles and ravens as the baddies? Nope. I think it's a case of venting here.

As for the Monster Fighters being a rip on Filmation's Ghostbusters, the only Ghostbusters-inspited thing I can see in this theme as the plane in the Ghost Train set. If anything the monsters seem more like the Universal monsters, but I digress.

[Graysmith]

I would agree that Laval himself looks dangerously similar to Lion-o (and LEGO posing Laval with a sword held up high doesn't help at all) to the point where WB might actually have a case against LEGO, but everything else about Chima doesn't strike me at all as a Thundercats rip-off beyond the obvious (and acceptable) similarities. Laval's vehicle doesn't look anything like the Thundertank, not even close.

[Suspsy]

Yeah, the original FB post has been deleted. Thundercats got cancelled this year, so Dan Norton is probably still very bitter. Again, I can't see this actually going to court.

[M'Kyuun]

I wish LEGO good luck with Chima, as there are a lot of possibilities for both show and sets. However, my wife and I very much enjoyed the new take on Thundercats, and have been anxiously awaiting second season. Sadly, doesn't look like it's coming. I don't believe the toyline did well, so that may be a big factor. It's sad to see one element of a property hold so much sway over another. I wasn't interested in the toys, either, but I thought the show was great.

Symbiotic Titan was another show that my wife and I really liked; however, it was canxed due to no associated toyline. There's a bit of irony as to how these aspects of program and merchandise work today, as opposed to 20+ years ago. In the late 70's, early 80's, it was verboten to create a cartoon show as an advertising medium. Today, it's essential. It's a shame that a show, given adequate sponsorship, can't stand merely on its own merit. TCats had high ratings, but still got the ax. It's a shame.

[Hobbestimus]

I know we crossed this bridge back when the prelims came out. In fact I think I said the lion faction had a Thundercats vibe to them, but that's where the similarity ends. Did any incarnation of Thundercats (80s or 2011/12) have crocodiles and ravens as the baddies? Nope. I think it's a case of venting here.

Actually, the main villain's henchmen were a reptile man, a vulture man, and a jackal man, so the Lions fighting Crocs, Ravens, and Wolfs is preeeeeetty similar. There are a LOT of surface comparisons that can be drawn between the two franchises.

But then, I tend to think of the original Thundercats as a He-Man rip-off, anyway.

Everything feeds of off something.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Hobbestimus

[TheLegoDr]

I loved Thundercats as a kid. I didn't see the new series since I don't have cable. However, I'd love for LEGO to release Thundercats sets. Instead of they came up with Chima. There may be some similarities, but I wouldn't say the two are the same. But with that said, I don't plan on getting any of the Chima sets anyway. I do think that poster of Laval doesn't help matters, but is a pose of a humanoid lion holding a sword really copyrighted? That'd be like saying throwing a bomb and walking away slowly would be copyrighted (which is overdone in every single action movie). I doubt there is too much of a case here. But it'd be interesting to see if there was a case and if Thundercats won, what would happen to Chima since it is supposed to be the best thing since sliced things.

[Algernon]

Was LEGO Castle ripping off Tolkien?

These comparisons are inevitable but really baseless. The idea of anthropormorphic animals with futuristic technology is absolutely nothing new. The art director can huff all he wants, LEGO wasn't drawing very much from his work.

[PenPlays]

No idea is original anymore, especially when it comes to Lego themes.

Adventurers-Indiana Jones

Ninjago-TMNT

Exo-Force-Power Rangers

So? Grow backbone and stop whining.

It suprises me that even in adulthood, people still act like "I came up with it first and you didn't!"

[Gatanui]

No idea is original anymore, especially when it comes to Lego themes.

Adventurers-Indiana Jones

Ninjago-TMNT

Exo-Force-Power Rangers

So? Grow backbone and stop whining.

It suprises me that even in adulthood, people still act like "I came up with it first and you didn't!"

As long as money is involved, men will act the most stupid ways. :/ All the patent wars in the tech market are barely different from that (a tiny company has seriously sued Microsoft for copying their tile concept :P).

-Gata

[Omega 8]

Let me preface this by saying that I LIKE Chima and plan to get several of the sets.......

I also must admit that I am a RABID fan of Norton's work. He and I are the same age and clearly are influenced by the same 80's/90's properties. GI Joe, MOTU, TCats, Star Wars, Comic Super Heroes......

Now, with that out of the way I will submit for the inevitable flaming that will occur that the difference in this case as opposed to the afore mentioned Indy/TMNT/Power Rangers/Filmation Ghostbusters apes is that Norton and his WB team pitched TCats to Lego themselves and that much of the art stills coming out now for Chima are (in Dan’s words) nearly identical to his concepts in style and color.

Add to that, (And I am speaking as one who watched every episode of the 201X TC show most episode more than once) In the image of Laval with the sword held high and his spirit power/mech looking thing outlined behind him, that construct is essentially the Lego version of the super-power armor introduced late in the series.

Laval = Lion-O

Cragger = Slythe

Razar = Vulture Man

Worriz = Jackal Man

I’d be willing to bet that, when we see the show, Longtooth will have a decidedly Panthro vibe.

Norton and crew are most assuredly bitter at having their show killed but, that alone, does not mean that he’s not right……

Lego has made a killing with themes that are extraordinarily similar to existing concepts….. This is nothing new.

Finally, as has been said already, in this day and age there are no “new” concepts. No”new” ideas. Only (hopefully) fresh takes on ideas that have come before.

[Gatanui]

You mean Norton approached LEGO about making Thundercats sets and LEGO went off and copied his concept (including much of the art) instead of making a licensed theme?

That would be utterly disappointing of LEGO.

-Gata

[pedro]

But then, I tend to think of the original Thundercats as a He-Man rip-off, anyway.

I was thinking of those similarities between He-Man and Thundercats when I began reading this thread! He-Man did the anthropomorphic characters and animalistic vehicles years before Thundercats, but both were awesome in their own right and unique given their character composition, theme and setting.

Chima treads it's own ground too. Similarities can be drawn between some of the characters but some of the connections above are pretty tenuous at best. Maybe there's a cross over in where the designers have found there inspiration - there's a lot of amazingly cool shit in the world we're all similarly exposed to - and maybe even some of that was the original Thundercats, but Thundercats certainly didn't come first in the realms of anthropomorphism and what LEGO has created with Chima now has a diversity that makes it feel very different.

I for one am lovin' the new theme and can't wait to see what comes next. Thundercats and He-Man will still rock in my book, but in different ways.

[Vindicare]

I definitely see the similarities too. I too was a big fan of the new Cats show and am bummed it's not comng back. But, to bitch and moan about someone stealing ideas is childish. Some of it may stem from cancellation of both the partnership with TLG and the show, so maybe he's just feeling moody.

[Gatekeeper]

It's funny that this is mentioned because that's the first thing that I thought when I saw the first pictures. I didn't read any of the threads here, but I also don't think there is any legal standing for intellectual property.

I liked Thundercats, back in "the day" and in its most recent reincarnation. Laval, looks a heck of a lot like Prince Lion o, but Lion o, is basically Prince Adam (He-man). Who was probably an incarnation of Sampson, or even Achilles or Hector..... Anyway, I digress.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Gatekeeper

[paanjang16]

While I do agree the "Thundertank" looks very much like the Thundertank from the original Thundercats (the whole reason I bought Laval's Royal Fighter anyway), but I do not really think it is a true rip-off of the real Thundertank. Sure it has features like a back mounted cannon, jaw eating action, cockpit behind what looks like a lion's head, but it is not copying the original Thundertank feature by feature or have the same colors. Maybe they can argue on the jaw eating feature and having a lion's head, but the other stuff is common to all military vehicles. If that is the case any vehicle that has threads, back mounted cannon and a lion's head in the front will be like a Thundertank.

The way I see it, it looks similar to the case where Games Workshop approach Blizzard to make a Warhammer RTS but the game was later canned. The end result is none other than Warcraft and Starcraft. Warcraft may look like Warhammer, Starcraft may look like 40k, but there are not the same. Similarly Chima and Thundercats may look similar, but it is very different from one another.

Chima is not even close to Thundercats. Unless of course the elder lion dies like in Thundercats and characters like Tigers, Panthers and Cheetahs make an appearance or an evil mummy from a dark pyramid comes out.

[Faefrost]

You mean Norton approached LEGO about making Thundercats sets and LEGO went off and copied his concept (including much of the art) instead of making a licensed theme?

That would be utterly disappointing of LEGO.

-Gata

Norton was a work for hire lead designer commissioned to put an updated spin on somebody else's designs. This is not his original IP. He is not the licencor nor is he the agent of the licencor. WB is the IP holder, and WB has a longstanding relationship with TLG. The two sides may have done some preliminary work towards making a Thundercats Lego line. For whatever reason the deal did not go through. My guess is asking price vs applicable ratings meant one of both sides did not see a clear path to profitability. (They may take a different view today after the rampant hit of TMNT line. But before that some caution over the ressurection of a slightly more obscure 80's cartoon property may not have seemed worth the cost after analysis.)

Now as part of these discussions and preliminary development Lego most likely did some design work. They experimented with molds and designs to see if they could Legoify the Thundercats. Once the deal fell through any of this design work is theirs to do with as they please, they can recycle it or redevelop those designs into new themes and new ideas, just so long as they are not using actual Thundercats IP. This is part of the two edged sword with licensing. If you are not confident enough in your show or IP's success in driving a licensed product you must be careful. Because any of the new original actual design materials developed by the licensee remain their property. If you screw this up you can turn someone seeking to license your property into your biggest competitor. (As others have noted Games Workshop seems particularly adept at this particular trick. Their turning down a licensor late in development in a fit of some sort of pique resulted in that licensor recycling the development into what later became one of the most successful video games of all time, and a literal money factory. And when GW complained about it they were laughed out of court.)

And no this is NOT stealing Mr. Norton's ideas or designs. This is a well known part of the process. Who owns what and who walks away with what is or at least should be well known to a "Lead Designer". Especially one who is doing design work for someone else's IP in the first place. Norton is bitter because his employer had him provide some of his T Cats design work to Lego in order for them to develop the initial Thundercats concept. Once that deal fell through The materials developed became the property of Lego, and they most likely recycled some of their design elements into Chima. The provided designs were never in fact the property of Mr. Norton to begin with. Once again, he is not the rights holder on Thundercats so anything he would have done would have been work for hire. Any challenge over what design elements did or did not use for Chima is WB's to make. WB is the rights holder on Thundercats. They are also the owners of Cartoon Network. As such they stand to be getting a decent chunk of Chima related income. Probably more so then they calculated they would get back from the anime version of Thundercats.

Mr. Norton provided design work into the projects, for which he was paid by his employer. His employer than owned the designs. His employer used those designs to do some preliminary work with one of their licensee's, Lego. Lego then paid to develop the requested designs within their licensed and identifiable format (ie minifigs, etc). These designs are not identical to Mr. Nortons. When one or both sides decided not to proceed with this license, then both sides went home with the design work that they each paid for, which they could re-incorporate into other projects as they saw fit. Just so long as none of the clearly licensed materials were used. This is common practice between businesses. Nortons rantings on the Internet however are not normal practices. They are grossly un professional and way out of line. I would not be surprised if he didn't get a less than polite call from WB's lawyers telling him now would be a good time to shut the pluck up.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Faefrost

[Gatanui]

Well thanks a lot for clarifying this for me.

-Gata

[gedren_y]

<snip>

I would not be surprised if he didn't get a less than polite call from WB's lawyers telling him now would be a good time to shut the pluck up.

You got that right.

As to similarities, I was also reminded of one of my favorite cartoons, Silverhawks. That was more about the vehicles, though. As to the He-Man and Thundercats similarities, I always thought they came out of the same animation studio house (look at the original art). I may want to look that up. I actually have original VHS episodes of Silverhawks and Thundercats. I had no interest in the remake of Thundercats, as I saw some of the new designs in a line of toys and was dissatisfied with the look. There may have even been a building toy set.

I like the look of some of these sets, and others I can see uses for the parts. The story and games I have no interest in. I might MOC some original Thundercats and Silverhawks one day, just for fun.

[Toth]

Lion-O is a human with some animal "paintings"....

This is a HUMAN with a lion flavor...he got a human nose, a human mouth and eyes....

Chima is 100% animalistique. they got fur or feathers, claws, jaws, wings...

Except it is on 2 legs, it is not "human".

those toys made by Papo got more similarities with Chima than Thundercats got.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Toth