Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Ahoy, Captain, I've already seen you posting Friday night but wanted to gice a more detailed reply!
As you know I've seen her in real life a few weeks ago and I think you know what I think of her - and since you only made her longer that hasn't changed.
It's not so much criticism about the look or the techniques your using (she does look great!
), but rather about scale. She's simply far too big to be accurate! At minifigure scale even the "Ocean" or the "Santissima Trinidad" would be smaller than your ship and they were the biggest ships of their era.
I have no plans of the "Ocean" but the "Santissima Trinidad" would certainly be larger according to the ship plans. I have considered to build the ST, but because of it's size I decided not to.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
I'm basing "Superbe" on the measurements of the Téméraire class (the real "Superbe" was of that class too!) which was 172 French feet long and 44 feet and 6 inches wide. I made that 172 studs long and 44 studs wide which is 1:42 and hence minifig scale.
Since almost all of the French 3rd rates during the napoleonic wars were built to that design your ship should have virtually the same measurements, if you want it to be accurate!
Alternatively you could make her an 80 gun ship, those were larger and a bit more powerful with 186 feet lenght at the gundeck and 46 feet width.
The widest part of Le Fourageux is 46 studs, which is at the waterline. The tumblehome in the bow needs to be adjusted to get 38 to 40 studs in width on top of the forecastle, and at the moment of writing I'm working on that.
Also according to my references the scale is almost correct in terms of width. This picture below shows an example and it provides a very detailed view of a bow. It's from a British 74 though.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
I also tried your technique a bit; it also works with a narrower hull! On that pic its 42 studs, but you could even bend it to 30!
*snip*
I've been researching this technique for several months, and by stacking 2 bricks high you can indeed bend further. That is however, impossible when that 'wall' is over 10 bricks high. Especially if you are implementing a tumblehome in it using jumper plates. And even if it holds, you will kill your bricks in the long term, they loose strenth and the construction will literally explode.
I've experienced it all, but feel free to give it a try.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Another note about the lenght: you already have 9 gunports on the lower gundeck, so if that's 40% you'd end up with 20 on each side which is more than any ship of the line ever had ... a French 74 would have 14 on each side of the lower and 15 on the upper gundeck, a 80 gun ship 15 and 16.
It's
about 40%, which means it varies between 30 and 50 percent. I don't know the
exact percentage! She will have 15 guns on the lower deck, same as the Duquesne (See first post), which was a 74 gun ship of the Téméraire class.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Personally I consider 7 stud spacing betweem the gunports most accurate, you seem to have 9 - again that's too big.
Also take into account the freeboard of your ship, i.e. the distancefrom the waterline to the lower gunports on a ship of the line it would be not much more than 5 feet which is the height of a minifig or less.
This is based on several factors, like the the loading weight of the ship. A ship with empty holds lies a meter(!) less deep in the water. Five feet is only seen at Second and First Rates, which could barely open the hatches on the lower gundeck at a rough sea. A Third Rate had no problems with that.
On top of that I refer back to the picture of the book earlier in this post. You can see there what the distance between the water surface and the lower gunports is. Based on that I think I've done it pretty accurate.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Another issue is the tumblehome. Consider that you should loose at least 10% of the deck width from the lower to the upper gundeck, French ships had less tumblehome than British ones, but yours is clearly not enough, again that makes the topdeck far too wide.
When you visited me you have indeed pointed me at this issue, and like I told you it's the first thing on the list to fix! I just had to expand the ship a bit to get the tumblehome in harmony.
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
What I also just noticed is that while a yellow-on-black colourscheme would have been accurate for a Napoleonic French ship of the line, it would definitely not feature the "Nelson checker", that means the gunports would be yellow, not black on the outside! Also the masts would have their natural wood look (reddish brown or tan) instead of yellow! Only the British painted their masts, and they did that too distinguish their ships from the sometimes yellow painted Frenchmen!
I've based my ship in the beginning on the French Bucentaure, which had a checker pattern and yellow masts. Otherwise I would have changed that already. I'm also looking at the Duquesne, regarding the coloursheme. Problem is, the hatches are opened so you can only see the red side of them.
Red and yellow on the hatches doesn't really combine well I think, so that's why they are black. I will look into it though, as yellow hatches look awesome when they are closed..
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Of course I'm a little bit crazy with my nitpicking here and I guess pretty much everybody else didn't notice any of that. So if you continue building her like that she still will be one of the best creations on the web! However I researched these things extensively for "Superbe" (which was already planned to be a 3rd rate when "Fourageux" was still a 4th rate), so I guess you're geting my point?
I've researched almost only Third Rates, as there was not much reference material for Fourth Rates..
So yeah, I've done my research as well, but from other sources. And I'm placing my accents on different aspects.
You are a true perfectionist after all, and I really appreciate such detailed feedback as that really aids me in the process! Althouh it looks like a debate sometimes I think it's an amazing learning process as well!
Perfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:
Anyway it's great to see that you're still working on her and she does get better with every rebuild - but she's still far from perfection.
In my humble opinion it's nearly perfect, at least it's a personal endeavour!
Thank you very much for this very detailed feedback!
Captain Becker, on 06 November 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:
Ah, so thats how he made the bow. thanks for that picture Perfectionist.
I do like the update, but i am also sad that you destroyed her, she was already almoust perfect IMO. And a it of critic, the cannons look a bit too small¨for this kind of ship.
But i will wait for new update, shes looking wonderful already. And did i mention that i cant wait to see her stern? Im intrested about the new techniques you are gonna use.
Captain Becker
She is not destroyed!
Only the bow and masts are gone. The rest of the ship is just split up in sections, safely stored.
The cannons aren't too small, the gunports are just a bit too large as I ran out of yellow plates. Easy fix!
I also cannot wait to start with the stern, as that will be awesome!
Corweena, on 07 November 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:
that really is a simple, yet effective bow design. And its made from probably the most common Lego brick. I can't wait to see what technique you use for the stern. Good luck with the rest of the ship!
Thanks mate!
poud, on 07 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:
Hey,
That's a huge and amazing ship you're building.
I just add one brick to your work. As a French, your ship' name sounded strange to me. I think it's more like "le Courageux" (meaning the brave), or le Fourreux (which means the one who carries food for horses). Due to an old French tradition, enherited from Louis the Fourteen, the French ships were named with adjectives that could be given to their sovereign (le Superbe, Le téméraire, le Soleil-Royal).
I hope my explanation will help you !
The name is indeed a bit strange, Le Fougeuex is also a French Third Rate. That's a bit where I based the name on in the
very beginning of this project. I just keep the name as it reminds me of the amazing process this ship has gone through. "Fourage" sounds like Feeding, thus the Fourageux became the scavenger of the seas. These were my very first ideas! After all it would be better to name, and base her on Le Duquesne, Le Bucentaure or Le Fougeuex. All French Third Rates which look almost the same.
Thank you for your feedback!
3
Dread Pirate Wesley
the bows detail.
)
