13 replies to this topic

[Horatio]

Hey, I was just wondering what other members thought about waterline model ships. I have never attempted one, but I'm starting to think about it, and I was wondering what some of the advantages are, but more importantly what some of the disadvantages are. I know that it's personal preference, but I don't know that much about building very large ships with that technique (that's the other thing, is I'm interested in how it works for ships larger than the pre-fab hulls would allow).

[Sebeus I]

One big disadvantages is strenght, a waterline model doesn't have a complete keel which dramatically reduces strenght, to counter that you'll need to either fix all decks or make the ship in multiple modules (so you carry it around in seperate sections).
The big advantage is that it looks awesome on the surface (check this out), a waterline model is great for combining with port and island dioramas.

[kurigan]

Well that's not true at all. Mine are all water line an have solid keels as well are fairly stable. It really depends on how your approach it. Brick built is always more challenging
to make stable as to opposed to using prefab Lego hulls. Both have draw backs but stability is one of the hall marks of the prefab method.

[Sebeus I]

kurigan, on 16 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Well that's not true at all. Mine are all water line an have solid keels as well are fairly stable. It really depends on how your approach it. Brick built is always more challenging
to make stable as to opposed to using prefab Lego hulls. Both have draw backs but stability is one of the hall marks of the prefab method.

Your ship can't have a complete keel if it's a waterline model  
Anyway, stability also depends a lot on the size of your ship, a very big ship has a lot more stability issues.

Maybe there's some confusion about the definition of a waterline model.
I believe it's a model with the submerged part cut off, in other words only that part of the ship that is above the water  

[kurigan]

Sebeus I, on 16 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Your ship can't have a complete keel if it's a waterline model  
Anyway, stability also depends a lot on the size of your ship, a very big ship has a lot more stability issues.

Maybe there's some confusion about the definition of a waterline model.
I believe it's a model with the submerged part cut off, in other words only that part of the ship that is above the water  

No, none at all. Didyou look at my ships? See the links below.

[Frank Brick Wright]

Well, if the keel is under the water-line and if a water-line model only has what is above the water-line, then if it is water-line, it doesn't has a keel, simple logic

Of course a water-line model can't have a full keel, your Snake, for instance, which does have a keel, isn't clearly water-line, or if it is supposed to be, well, then…

[Perfectionist]

Well a display like that is really nice, but not everybody wants the need to put brickbuild water around their ships. Besides this can be quite a hassle on very big ships, like for instance Sebeus' Dutchman.

Sebeus I, on 15 June 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

One big disadvantages is strenght, a waterline model doesn't have a complete keel which dramatically reduces strenght

This is very true for brickbuild hulls exceeding a certain size. Got to stress that point.

kurigan, on 16 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

stability is one of the hall marks of the prefab method.

Well, that's mostly because prefab ships tend to be rather small. I can remove the prefabs from the bottom of my ships and they stay intact without too much trouble. Pretty much everything else you said is wrong or confusing too.

Sebeus I, on 16 June 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Your ship can't have a complete keel if it's a waterline model  

No, obviously it cannot. But kurigan doesn't seem to understand.

[kurigan]

Alright gentleman, it's inappropriate to insult my intelligence. I've explained several times through my own threads that my methods is not exactly a conventional "water line" technique but is ment to be something very much like it. By breaking with convention I find I get the best of both worlds. Much like Rapscallion is displayed, to get the full effect the lower portion of my hulls need to be obscured by some medium, like brick built ocean, but the working theory generates options which is why I offered it here. Now that this has gotten away from being of any use to Horatio, I suggest we gat back on topic.

My input doesn't change. Water line models tend to be more stable, particularly when built with prefab sections. By this I only reference the satbility of the sheer hulk it's self; considerations for rigging or other parts of the vessel not withstanding. Full hulls tend to be less stable regardless of their size because their member parts are smaller and more numerous, they almost necessarily being brick built. To most you'll find venturing upon a project of the full hull type, stability isn't a key issue as they tend to be intended as models, not toys or play sets. Water line tends to be favored for playable constructionsn to better simulate a ship at sea. As for perfectionist's point that larger vessels become less stabe as they grow; this is usally true for any build, prefab hulls aside. What you'll notice about most of the prefab hull builds, larger ones espically, is that they are usually built out wider a mid ship then the prefab sections.

Exceptions to the "rules":
Super link attempted upon a full with his Rapscallion still based on prefab sections. It wasn't terrible, but he decided to go with the water line after all.
Cb4's full hull technique is well know to be quit stable, images of his Xebec propped up on a single point proving it, can be see on his thread.

[Frank Brick Wright]

Agreed. Prefabs usually provide more stability. I don't agree however that stability isn't a concern in full-hull models. It really is. You can't built it properly if everything is breaking apart, or if even for small dislocations the ship masts and components start separating. IMO stability is always essential.

Cb4's technique is indeed absolutely strong. I can easily hold my hull in any position without the slightest problem.




I never experienced real contact with a model using Anders' technique, but I do think that the hull is pretty solid, I'm more afraid with the above connection in terms of decks and tumblehome building.

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

I've built two waterline and one full hull ship so far.  I must say you can acheive incredible strength with prefab hulls even with a ton of length.  Check this photo out if you don't believe me:


My waterline ships are much more interesting to build, and look much more realistic in my opinion, but they are definitely fragile!  Especially at the size of my sixty four it just cant be lifted in one section.  So the compromise is building in sections which provides a whole new set of challenges.  For right now, I definately prefer waterline models, but since the introduction of black hulls and new techniques like Perfectionists NextGen technique that may change.

Dread Pirate Wesley

[Horatio]

Well thank you all for your comments. I guess that what it really comes down to is personal preference, all things considered. Since there is difficulty with building a large waterline model, I think that I'll build a small model, to see if it grows on me. Thanks again for all of your comments.

[Bart]

I don't know about the advantages or disadvantages with waterline versus full hull models.
but that is also not really my reason for replying here.
Can somebody point me in the direction of this new technique of Perfectionist, I've read some notes about it here and there, but I can't seem to find the post. I've been away from EB for a wile so I missed a bit :(

Bart

[Sebeus I]

Bart, on 17 July 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

I don't know about the advantages or disadvantages with waterline versus full hull models.
but that is also not really my reason for replying here.
Can somebody point me in the direction of this new technique of Perfectionist, I've read some notes about it here and there, but I can't seem to find the post. I've been away from EB for a wile so I missed a bit :(

Bart

Here you go:
More ships for the fleet

[efullner]

I think that if you're having a display at sea, the waterline model would work the best. If you are showing it in "dry-dock," then use the ship and hull. I, for one, like the waterline models. No reason, just because I like them.