79 replies to this topic

[natesroom]

Id like to help this project also..being an Adobe illustrator user for over 17 years  i have a love for all things vector...

I'm not sure i like github cause it seems cumbersome.

I'd like to be part of this group though. I can recreate just about any design you send my way, probably just like a few of us on here can do. But i think i like it if we have a collaborative effort of Designers rather then one or two doing all the heavy lifting.

Can we do something like a Wiki? They use SVG for their graphics now... and i think we really need a Thumbnail image of the items. We can have accreditation listed on the page and it would record user changes and what they submitted.

EDIT: Also i cant seem to get them to download i still get the validation thing happening

Edited by natesroom, 09 July 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[NickAb]

Emperor Krulos, on 09 July 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

You use Illustrator? NickAb does too. There is a slight incompatibility with Inkscape concerning scale. Which is why we said we'd scale decals to Inkscape-like dimensions. I just added a page to the wiki, explaining it. Illustrator can be set up to use Inkscapes settings.

I'm sorry I'm a bit behind on the wiki.

@NickAb: If you found that setting, would you mind putting it in the wiki?

...

I did not find any dpi fix for Illustrator. Currently I'm using SVG templates from resources folder, that way my designs (in Adobe Illustrator) are little bigger than they should be, but when I export them to Inkscape due to difference in default DPI they become of right size. So I'm working in illustrator not in right scale, but as result when I open SVG in Inkscape I'm getting right sizes and ready for print decal.
Hope it makes any sense.

[natesroom]

NickAb, on 10 July 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

I did not find any dpi fix for Illustrator. Currently I'm using SVG templates from resources folder, that way my designs (in Adobe Illustrator) are little bigger than they should be, but when I export them to Inkscape due to difference in default DPI they become of right size. So I'm working in illustrator not in right scale, but as result when I open SVG in Inkscape I'm getting right sizes and ready for print decal.
Hope it makes any sense.

Well when i make a new file in AI i can choose the measurement in inches / mm / pixels / points / picas / cm. I would try it in pixels and see if that is the issue

Edited by natesroom, 10 July 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[vynsane]

Emperor Krulos, on 09 July 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

You use Illustrator? NickAb does too. There is a slight incompatibility with Inkscape concerning scale. Which is why we said we'd scale decals to Inkscape-like dimensions. I just added a page to the wiki, explaining it. Illustrator can be set up to use Inkscapes settings.

Unless I'm missing something, the tutorial is on how to set Inkscape to adhere to Illustrator scale. That said, I did a little research and found that it's not necessarily a program issue, but an OS issue. Windows uses the 96ppi setting but Mac uses 72ppi. Being on a Mac myself, I don't think the Inkscape/Illustrator conversion should be an issue at all (at least for me). People using Illo on a PC will have issues. I just opened my first template file, a 1x4 tile, in svg in both Illo and Inkscape and it looks to be the same to me!

Quote

I never meant not to have decals properly sized. If a decal is made for a certain size the name should reflect it of course. I just think that saving the same file under different names is a bit unnecessary.

This might not even be the case. Imagine a decal for 2x2 tile with fine lines. We want to rescale it to 1x1. A simple rescale will possibly make those fine lines impossible to print because a 0.4pt suddenly is 0.1pt. So we'd actually have to do more than a simple rescale. We'd probably have to partially redesign it anyway. Similar to how computer icons have to be designed for different resolutions.

That's true - unless you have turned strokes into outlines, then they scale with the rest of the design. Still, tweaks might be necessary as you note, the same way that typographers (at least old-school ones) will add/subtract weight to/from a letter depending on the size of the output.

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For this to work the svg markup needs identifiers. So it's writing the script and preparing the files. Of course this is a huge short term investment, but it will pay of in the long term.

Like I said, the source decals would have to be prepared so the script knows where to insert the logo. Something like a named rectangular region for example. Aside from learning how to set that up properly it also implies the limit of such a system. A dragon can fill out a shield better than a rectangle can, but the rectangle limits the size of the dragon. That might be a real bummer. Also one might want different colors on their decals. A blue and white jester versus a red and white one. So we'd either have to tell the script what colors to use or use all colors for all factions.

It's starting to sound less useful than I at first thought.  

I think you're getting ahead of yourself - lets work on the repository first. Phase two can be the site I'm already developing (solely in my mind, currently) where you can put all these things together using some sort of HTML5/jQuery drag-n-drop snazziness. Phase 3 can, naturally, be world domination

natesroom, on 09 July 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Id like to help this project also..being an Adobe illustrator user for over 17 years  i have a love for all things vector...

The more the merrier!

Quote

I'm not sure i like github cause it seems cumbersome.

It's really not, though, once you get into the swing of things. If you clone the repository to your computer, you just save your files in the appropriate folder and then sync your changes - presto, change-o, you've added a file to the central repository on the GitHub site.

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I'd like to be part of this group though. I can recreate just about any design you send my way, probably just like a few of us on here can do. But i think i like it if we have a collaborative effort of Designers rather then one or two doing all the heavy lifting.

Well, it's just started, hasn't it? Hop on board and then pester others to do the same!

Quote

Can we do something like a Wiki? They use SVG for their graphics now... and i think we really need a Thumbnail image of the items. We can have accreditation listed on the page and it would record user changes and what they submitted.

There is a wiki. It's still light on content, but you can add to it if you join up. As for "They use SVG for their graphics now" - are you referring to the images in the repository? Because the 'they' you're referring to is literally just Emperor Krulos, NickAB and (to a much smaller extent thus far) me.

SVG is a great cross-platform way to share the designs, but I agree maybe we should have some sort of visible version of the image in the repo - maybe each SVG is also output as a PNG so we can see what they look like, even in GitHub.

[NickAb]

vynsane, on 10 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

...
SVG is a great cross-platform way to share the designs, but I agree maybe we should have some sort of visible version of the image in the repo - maybe each SVG is also output as a PNG so we can see what they look like, even in GitHub.

Adding PNGs to main repository may cause two problems:

• growth of repo size (at least twice a size of only SVG repo) // well it is not such a big problem now days, but still
  
• clutter

I think it might be better to create an additional site (or github) that will have only png previews and links to original SVG files. The content of such site might be auto-generated. Github have some APIs.

Edited by NickAb, 11 July 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Emperor Krulos]

natesroom, on 09 July 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Also i cant seem to get them to download i still get the validation thing happening

Download this Zip-file. Does that work for you?

If anyone figures out the Illustrator/Inkscape thing please add to the wiki.

vynsane, on 10 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I think you're getting ahead of yourself - lets work on the repository first. Phase two can be the site I'm already developing (solely in my mind, currently) where you can put all these things together using some sort of HTML5/jQuery drag-n-drop snazziness. Phase 3 can, naturally, be world domination

Yeah I tend to do that. Get ahead of myself I mean. I already have ideas piling, but thought we should get everyone up and running and then maybe do a little community spirit building thing and then get to doing magic.

We may not loose sight of the world domination part. We have at least two empires thirsting for expansion

vynsane, on 10 July 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

SVG is a great cross-platform way to share the designs, but I agree maybe we should have some sort of visible version of the image in the repo - maybe each SVG is also output as a PNG so we can see what they look like, even in GitHub.

NickAb, on 11 July 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

Adding PNGs to main repository may cause two problems:

• growth of repo size (at least twice a size of only SVG repo) // well it is not such a big problem now days, but still
  
• clutter

I think it might be better to create an additional site (or github) that will have only png previews and links to original SVG files. The content of such site might be auto-generated. Github have some APIs.

GitHub Pages and a (semi-)continuous build server was what I was thinking.

[vynsane]

Emperor Krulos, on 11 July 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

GitHub Pages and a (semi-)continuous build server was what I was thinking.

Can the wiki display SVG graphically, or does it end up with the same constraints (code only) as the 'main' interface?

[Emperor Krulos]

Okay did some quick testing.

SVG in the wiki suffer the same security measures.


Then I set up a quick GitHub pages site. And Tada that works.

So having a GitHub page and a (semi-)continuous build server[1] would do the trick. Maybe someone has a smarter way of doing it? We could just work in the branch, but it will be cluttered wich I don't want to deal with when decaling, also I wouldn't want someone just browsing by to be forced to also download the pngs and the pages just to get the svg.

Opinions anyone?

[1] A continuous build server is a server that looks for (or is told) about changes in a repository (or any other kind of trigger) and does stuff accordingly. In our case that would mean download the repository create the png and maybe some automatic pages and commit to gh-pages branch of the repository. By semi I mean that I'm not putting it on the web (sorry no space left for that), but rather I'll run it on my PC and kick it a few times a week.

[vynsane]

Cool, that sounds good.

So I'm having a problem pulling new changes - after I committed the first set of template files it told me I had to commit them again, complete with diff comparisons (that show no differences). It appears I'm stuck committing to HEAD instead of master, and can't switch lest I get an error message saying I have to commit or stash any changes (of which there are none) before I can switch branches.

Any idea how to get back on track here?

EDIT: I ended up removing the clone from my local machine, deleting some app data and re-cloning it. This caused me to have to commit changes to all files but fixed the sync issue. Nothing should be modified, I don't know what happened there.

Edited by vynsane, 12 July 2012 - 03:02 AM.

[Emperor Krulos]

I also ran into that and think that it was my fault. I added a .gitattribute file that should normalize linefeeds. Either I remove that or we have to commit every new file twice  

[NickAb]

Is .gitattributes really necessary for SVG repository? Thought SVG files can be edited in text editor it really happens rarely.

[vynsane]

^ It's in order to normalize the line-breaks in the files, as Emperor Krulos stated - Window uses a different character to represent a line-break than UNIX based systems. Thankfully, at least, Mac has normalized to use the UNIX line-break format since moving to UNIX kernel with OSX. Windows uses a pair of characters - a 'carriage return' (CR) and 'linefeed' (LF) whereas UNIX uses LF only. Mac used to use CR only, but now uses LF per UNIX.

It's too bad Git doesn't use ASCII transfer for the push/pull, as that would solve this problem, since it changes the file to align with the environment it's being transferred to. I'd imagine using that transfer scheme causes other issues, otherwise it would already do so.

Anyway, it's good to know it wasn't something I did, at least  

So, while working on my sticker template files, I've noted some interesting aspects. Bear in mind I'm creating templates for stickers based on official LEGO stickers - so they are the same width and length as those you would get in official sets. That means there is roughly a 1mm gap between the end of the sticker and the end of the element on all four sides of a 1x1 tile, for instance - it won't butt up against the ends of the element. I can create another set of templates for that purpose, but as previously stated, my initial intent was to create stickers based on 'official' spec.

I'm thinking this will make a good Wiki entry once I have the info fleshed out a bit more:

Quote

Official LEGO Sticker Measurement Comparisons

1xN sticker width/depth (top aspect) = 6mm
1xN sticker height (profile aspect) = 8mm

Step-up for each stud (top aspect, width or length) = 8mm

Actual data:
1x3 tile = 1x3 curved slope = 22mm x 6mm
1x6 tile = 46mm x 6mm
1x8 tile = 1x10 curved slope (smooth area) = 62mm x 6 mm
2x2 tile = 2x2 round tile = 14mm x 14mm
2x4 tile = 4x2 curved slope = 2x4 curved slope = 30mm x 14mm

Extrapolated data:
1x1 tile = 1x1 'cheese' slope = 6mm x 6mm
1x2 tile = 2x1 'cheese' slope = 14mm x 6mm
1x4 tile = 1x4 curved slope = 30mm x 6mm

Obviously the true surface area of the top aspect of, say, a 2x4 curved slope is greater than that of a 2x4 tile because of the rise in profile. However, it appears that TLG decided to utilize the same measurements for stickers for both pieces, probably in an effort to both cut costs (less expense by reducing variance in designing dies to cut sticker sheets) and to improve sticker reusability (an essential part of LEGO philosophy).

Disclaimer: These measurements are rounded off. Since I'm scanning in used sticker sheets and not using calipers, I removed any decimal points (never more than 0.2mm) which I chalked up to anomalies in the die-cut and/or scanning processes.

Edited by vynsane, 12 July 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[natesroom]

vynsane:

Id be happy to help recreate some decals. I guess if you separated out different segments we could get two people working on them at the same time. At this rate we'd be doubling up the speed at which they get created.

[NickAb]

vynsane, on 12 July 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

^ It's in order to normalize the line-breaks in the files, as Emperor Krulos stated - Window uses a different character to represent a line-break than UNIX based systems. Thankfully, at least, Mac has normalized to use the UNIX line-break format since moving to UNIX kernel with OSX. Windows uses a pair of characters - a 'carriage return' (CR) and 'linefeed' (LF) whereas UNIX uses LF only. Mac used to use CR only, but now uses LF per UNIX.
...

Yeah, I know about line-breaks difference, it really matters when part of team writes code on linux and other part on windows, but SVG files are rarely read and edited in text editor. Inkscape and Adobe Illustrator don't care which line breaks are used, they will open file anyway. Plus after editing and saving file localy both Inkscape and Illustrator will reformat file, placing default for current system line-breaks.

So fixing line-breaks might be not that important if causes some problems with committing/merging/etc.

Edited by NickAb, 12 July 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[vynsane]

natesroom - I've not been replicating any pre-existing decal designs as of yet, merely setting up templates for each type of element that has historically been officially 'stickered' based on used sticker sheets that I have on-hand. I've been scanning in these (essentially blank) sticker sheets and cropping down to different individual stickers, measuring them using guides and the 'ruler' tool in Photoshop, then recreating the outline of the sticker in Illustrator in order to output the SVG files.

That said, my main interest in creating these templates is to then use them in designing my own custom stickers for various parts, though it's not out of the question that I would recreate official designs - especially some ExoForce stickers, since they're so awesome. Unfortunately, I don't have any of those at this time.  

As for the out-of-sync issue after the addition of .gitattributes, it seems it was a one-time thing. I just updated/added some templates and didn't need to re-commit.  

NickAb, on 12 July 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

Inkscape and Adobe Illustrator don't care which line breaks are used, they will open file anyway. Plus after editing and saving file localy both Inkscape and Illustrator will reformat file, placing default for current system line-breaks.

So fixing line-breaks might be not that important if causes some problems with committing/merging/etc.

I'm not so sure - SVG is an XML markup language, and XML can be notoriously picky about extra whitespace and/or lines. I think in light of the fact that my most recent commit went through without a hitch, we're out of the woods on the double-commit issue and can leave it as-is.

Edited by vynsane, 12 July 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Emperor Krulos]

NickAb, on 12 July 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

Is .gitattributes really necessary for SVG repository?

Probably not. I was trying to be clever, which I should have known never really works   . You and vynsane summed it up very well . Line endings is mostly a cross platform headache, but as you have pointed out irrelevant because our editors take care of that.

If this causes any more headaches, I'm in favor of deleting it.

By the way are you two developers as well? If so, what languages do you speak? I'm starting to be ashamed of my first wiki entry (drawing with linked clones). I thought a project like this would be more attractive to newcomers. I had no clue only pros would turn up

natesroom, on 12 July 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Id be happy to help recreate some decals. I guess if you separated out different segments we could get two people working on them at the same time. At this rate we'd be doubling up the speed at which they get created.

Natesroom, I love your enthusiasm, man. As you notice, we're still trying to get organized (without organizing it ). Speaking of getting things up and running. Were you able to successfully some of the svg files? Maybe we sould take care of that.

Of course once we're done with organizing ourselves we should do some team spirit building. Something like "Exhilarating Exoforce: Insane Vynsane needs some mountain kicking robot stickers.", "Medieval Marauders - Show us your faction", "Sinister Supers: The Darkseid of Comics (Including, but not limited to DC and Marvel Villains and Anti-Heros)" or simply "CMF 8".

But as NickAB and vynsane like to remind me, we should take a step at a time.

[vynsane]

Emperor Krulos, on 12 July 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

By the way are you two developers as well? If so, what languages do you speak? I'm starting to be ashamed of my first wiki entry (drawing with linked clones). I thought a project like this would be more attractive to newcomers. I had no clue only pros would turn up

I'm a web developer/designer by trade - ASP.NET (mainly SharePoint customization) by day, PHP/MySql by night. I actually started my GitHub account in order to keep a remote copy of my labor of love, the content management system I'm writing in PHP, KibuCMS.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having beginner tutorials in the wiki. I wouldn't know the first thing about working in Inkscape, so it's all new to me there! Not to mention the fact that I've never designed a custom LEGO sticker in my life, so I wouldn't necessarily count me among those 'pros' you said turned up.   I did graduate with a MFA in Illustration with basically a minor in Graphic Design, though, so I got that going for me, which is nice.  

Quote

Of course once we're done with organizing ourselves we should do some team spirit building. Something like "Exhilarating Exoforce: Insane Vynsane needs some mountain kicking robot stickers.", "Medieval Marauders - Show us your faction", "Sinister Supers: The Darkseid of Comics (Including, but not limited to DC and Marvel Villains and Anti-Heros)" or simply "CMF 8".

But as NickAB and vynsane like to remind me, we should take a step at a time.

HA! Love those calls to action. And there's nothing wrong with thinking big as long as it doesn't overshadow the here and now.  

[vynsane]

So, I was creating a template file for a 4x16 wedge sticker based on a sticker sheet that I hadn't used - so I ended up designing my first ever replica of an official sticker, the pattern on the nose of the Imperial V-Wing Starfighter:



The inner boundary of the light gray outline marks the 'official' sticker. The rest is just bleed.

[NickAb]

@vynsane, I see you added LEGO color palette for Illustrator, I guess it is based on Peeron color chart.

There are basically 3 variants of pallets close to official LEGO colors. And I think we should decide to witch palette we would stick, to prevent minor color deviations. Here are some options:

• Peeron color chart RGB value
  
• Peeron color chart CMYK values
  
• LEGO color chart PDF released in 2010

Basically I prefer CMYK, as its was created especially for printing. Did you used some kind of script to generate Illustrator palette based on Peeron RGB values? If so, can you please re-generate palette but based on CMYK values.

So, if you have automated means for generating palette based on Peeron, then I would suggest to stick to Peeron CMYK, else we should stick to your Peeron RGB palette.

[vynsane]

NickAb, on 13 July 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

@vynsane, I see you added LEGO color palette for Illustrator, I guess it is based on Peeron color chart.

It's actually based on a palette that's included in the file 'big ben.svg', which I assume is the LEGO.gpl file from the repo. I simply eyedropped each color into a swatch, then saved the palette.

Quote

Basically I prefer CMYK, as its was created especially for printing. Did you used some kind of script to generate Illustrator palette based on Peeron RGB values? If so, can you please re-generate palette but based on CMYK values.

Since SVG uses RGB by default (being a screen-based file format, primarily) I think that's why the CMYK values are off, due to using the eyedropper. I'll recreate the palette manually inputting the CMYK values directly in the 'create swatch' dialog. Also, I'm using the 'LEGO Official' names for each color since there's not enough space in the swatch name for BL, Peeron and TLG color names.

[NickAb]

vynsane, on 13 July 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

...
Since SVG uses RGB by default (being a screen-based file format, primarily) I think that's why the CMYK values are off, due to using the eyedropper. I'll recreate the palette manually inputting the CMYK values directly in the 'create swatch' dialog. Also, I'm using the 'LEGO Official' names for each color since there's not enough space in the swatch name for BL, Peeron and TLG color names.

Thanks for palette. Some colors seems a little to dark, but I've got main colors already inputed in CMYK (based on Peeron), just need to gather swatches together. I'll add palette based on Peeron CMYK values later, but not before sunday.
Also there is a PDF with TLGs official colors. Colors almost identical to peeron CMYK colors, but there are some minor deviations, probably because PDF was saved for web/screen with RGB color profile.

Edited by NickAb, 13 July 2012 - 03:47 PM.

[vynsane]

I just updated the palette file. I also saved it as .ase instead of .ai - the file size is markedly smaller and it's interoperable with Photoshop as well.

Take a look and compare to the swatches you have, let me know if there are any discrepancies.

[Emperor Krulos]

That gpl file is a pure text file. It has the rgb values and the Lego name. Are the Illustrator swatches also human editable, i.e. with a text editor?

[vynsane]

Emperor Krulos, on 13 July 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Are the Illustrator swatches also human editable, i.e. with a text editor?

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way - for the .ai file or the .ase file. You know how it is with 'big software' - proprietary, proprietary, proprietary.

[NickAb]

Emperor Krulos, on 13 July 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

That gpl file is a pure text file. It has the rgb values and the Lego name. Are the Illustrator swatches also human editable, i.e. with a text editor?

vynsane, on 13 July 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that way - for the .ai file or the .ase file. You know how it is with 'big software' - proprietary, proprietary, proprietary.

It seems .ase (swatches exchange) file format is not that difficult to reverse engineer. There are some javascript and php source codes of .ase generation functions available on the internet.