Porsche Pricing & Availability

[nerdsforprez]

Sincerely, I apologize if this creates too much commotion, there already has

been so much hubaloo about this already. Jim, forgive me if this is

redundant of what is already in the Porsche thread... but this question

burns me and I dont want to infiltrate the Porsche thread anymore with what

is below.

I don't understand the commotion about the new Porsche price tag. Is this a

case of members just being emotional or is there some objective grounds for

the frustration?

This is nothing in-depth, I am moving offices and therefore don't have

access to my stats software and am too lazy to really calculate anything

(not to mention really small sample) but check out the large sets in the

past seven years or so of price per piece values.....

AROCS 8.2

42009 8.4

Uh-40 9.8

Heavy L helicopter 13.4

24 hour race car 10.7

Crwler crane 10.7

Crgo plane 10.8

Volvo 15.3

Grand prix 11.4

Service truck 10.2

9396 11.4

9397 10.7

9398 15.1

8070 9.4

8043 17.8

8053 7.8

Tractor with trailer 9.1

( I only went back seven years or so... going back further inflation really

would begin to make a difference)

I don't really see anything out of the ordinary. The price tag of the

Porsche looks like normal variation to me. Yes, most of the above sets

have PF. But not all. In fact, the Grand Prix racer (42000) didn't and its PPP

value is actually HIGHER (11.4) than the Porsche (11.1). You didn't hear

all the clamor about that set as you do with the Porsche. Same with 9396.

Higher than the Porsche and no PF functions. No licensing, no

special packaging, nothing. Yet, per piece, it was more expensive. All the

HL Helicopter has for PF is a battery box and M motor and it costs 13.4

center PP. Take away those items (lets assume fair value is $10 for battery

box and 8 for the motor) and you have a price of 11.7 PP. Quite a bit more

than the Porsche. The Volvo Loader, which we all agreed was expensive....

was 15.3 PP. But chock-full of PF right? So that justified the price

tag--- right? Well, even if we took away ONE-FOURTH of its price tag...

(like 62.50) ... its PPP would still be higher than the Porsche

(249.99-62.50 = 187.49 / 1636 = 11.5). Similarly, you can take away over

one-third of the price tag of 8043 and it would still be more expensive

(according to PPP) than the Porsche. Is it possible that we are

over-reacting a bit to the pricing? Is it possible that we are looking at

a social phenomenon versus something where there is objective evidence to

support the price hype?

[Sariel]

People take one look at this car and assume it's medium-sized at best, and pretty simple, something like the 8070. Appreciating how large and complex it is takes some thinking and a moment of actual reflection. Few people bother with either one of these. It's so much easier to jump on the PORSCHE WANTS OUR MONIES, HURR DURR bandwagon.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Sariel

[dr_spock]

I think most of that will die down once Jim does his indepth review. (I don't think Jim will hand review off to Blackbird.) Then we'll get a better idea of we're getting versus judging from pictures and basic video. There will always to be the disappointed crowd on the Internet. It's same with other products like cameras, shoes, etc.

[Littleworlds]

Well, I do think the Porsche is targeted at adults, so they have naturally deeper pockets, goes without saying Though seeing it only from the price-per piece point of view, disregards other factors, and while Lego was releasing premium-priced sets before, the intervals become shorter and shorter. I wonder how long it will take until the market for these sets will be saturated. Contrary to children, where, thanks to demographics, every few years the customer-base almost completely changes, I think the place adult-sets can take is rather limited.

Large sets are certainly a joy to assemble and fill you with more pride than just buying a ready-made model - and you get much more fun out of it too. Still I can clearly understand some scepticism towards EUR/$ 200+ price tags and share them to a degree.

[Andy D]

I have been thinking about the price... Usually I buy two of the $150 sets, so with the Porsche I will buy just one of a $300 set. Same money spent.

Besides the cost and engineering of the plastic and model design, there are costs associated with that huge book (I am looking forward to the book). Someone has to pay for these items... Us! It is the cost of these large UCS type sets, we asked for it, now if we really meant it, if we really want it we must pay for it.

Just MHO, YMMV

Andy D

[BrickMonkeyMOCs]

AROCS 8.2

42009 8.4

Uh-40 9.8

Heavy L helicopter 13.4

24 hour race car 10.7

Crwler crane 10.7

Crgo plane 10.8

Volvo 15.3

Grand prix 11.4

Service truck 10.2

9396 11.4

9397 10.7

9398 15.1

8070 9.4

8043 17.8

8053 7.8

Tractor with trailer 9.1

The Porsche set is more expensive than any of these. That is why people are likely to be put off by the price.

Price per part isn't really the point. The simple fact is that it is a very expensive set and doesn't offer that much in terms of technical features.

[DrJB]

While there are many diverse/different opinions, this discussion reminds me of a quote in a movie I saw recently: There are two types of people, those constantly running after happiness, and those running away from pain (Russel Crowe, do not recall the name of the movie). This to say there are two 'groups' of AFOLs, those who see this as an iconic set and those who see it as just another set of parts, ultimately destined to be recycled for other MOCs.

I recall you and I had a related discussion in a separate thread. You had told me/us, back then, that the best correlation to price was the actual weight of the set. As in any statistical analysis, there are many ways to skin this cat car. So, the few metrics that would make sense displaying (to me) would be:

1. Weight of the set

2. Average weight (mass) for each part

3. % distributions among nails&glue (2L/3L pins and bushings), and important parts (connectors, gears, lift-arms and panels)

4. Presence of PF parts and how many.

There was a thread I started a while back, and the title I think was 'nails & glue' and in there, based on a small list of sets I considered, the small 2L/3L pins and bushings accounted for roughly 50% of all parts.

Yes, I agree that the PPP for this set is in the same ballpark as for prior sets, but if this car has a higher percentage of small parts, then the PPP is no longer a 'valid' metric.

Also, it's a good idea that you started this thread so we can have a separate/focused 'healthy' debate.

[nerdsforprez]

The Porsche set is more expensive than any of these. That is why people are likely to be put off by the price.

Price per part isn't really the point. The simple fact is that it is a very expensive set and doesn't offer that much in terms of technical features.

Could not disagree more. Static numbers have little meaning in and of themselves. Statistically speaking. The difference between 100 and 200 is net to nothing if the standard deviation is 1000. We never know this without a recognition of the relative value of numbers. People (especially politicians and sports newscasters) often say "let me share with you some stats" and then throw out some numbers. Why are the "stats"? - because they are compared to other values.

If what you are saying is true then the price tag, say, on a set with 1000 parts, PF functions, actuators and the like would still be technically, more expensive than "any of these" - and therefore people would be put off by that price???? No way. People would be flocking to a set like that. Relative value MEANS ALOT. Perhaps, PPP is not the right metric, that is one example among 1000.....flawed or not it is one metric that is commonly used. Still, not one person has addressed the question of this post which is .... could not our uproar be due to a social phenomenon versus something real? Again, I am not arguing PPP is the best metric... it is just an example. But flawed or not.... it does not suggest that the Porsche model is really all that bad of a value. Throw absolute cost out the window...... NO ONE really is discussing that. Check out the thread. Everyone is talking about the price in terms of PF functions, packaging, the booklet, license.. etc.....By way of value let's look at the actual data and not personal "feel" or "gut reaction" -- I would argue that compared to other sets, with PF functions, or not.... exclusive or not... the Porsche does not look like a bad value. Perhaps a bad value according to your own personal value system of how much you like this function or that, PF or not, .. I get that. But don't consider your own personal tastes, objectively.... is it really that bad??

[Paul B Technic]

LEGO produces sets which will sell, we have asked for larger and more complex sets and this is what we get, if you like it buy it, if you don't then don't buy it.

I have little interest in this set myself but understand it is what some people want, if it sells at that price then that is great, if not LEGO will learn from it.

I look at PPP (price per piece) myself when buying sets for MOC fodder, but what the parts are also matters....

[bonox]

it's no more expensive than the modulars, which are very arguably another adult focused series. The price doesn't really matter to what I think is most of the market. The limiting factor will be what the retailers see as the size of the market. If they don't order many, we might see an artificially high value because they won't ever go into sales. I saw this locally with the big tumbler.

PPP means something if you're trying to sell by piece, or buy by piece.

For those building, selling price per piece is meaningless. If the set contains unique parts, then buying cost doesn't mean much either, since you probably won't be buying it piecemeal for less than the cost of a whole set anyway.

[BrickMonkeyMOCs]

Could not disagree more. Static numbers have little meaning in and of themselves. Statistically speaking. The difference between 100 and 200 is net to nothing if the standard deviation is 1000. We never know this without a recognition of the relative value of numbers. People (especially politicians and sports newscasters) often say "let me share with you some stats" and then throw out some numbers. Why are the "stats"? - because they are compared to other values.

If what you are saying is true then the price tag, say, on a set with 1000 parts, PF functions, actuators and the like would still be technically, more expensive than "any of these" - and therefore people would be put off by that price???? No way. People would be flocking to a set like that. Relative value MEANS ALOT. Perhaps, PPP is not the right metric, that is one example among 1000.....flawed or not it is one metric that is commonly used. Still, not one person has addressed the question of this post which is .... could not our uproar be due to a social phenomenon versus something real? Again, I am not arguing PPP is the best metric... it is just an example. But flawed or not.... it does not suggest that the Porsche model is really all that bad of a value. Throw absolute cost out the window...... NO ONE really is discussing that. Check out the thread. Everyone is talking about the price in terms of PF functions, packaging, the booklet, license.. etc.....By way of value let's look at the actual data and not personal "feel" or "gut reaction" -- I would argue that compared to other sets, with PF functions, or not.... exclusive or not... the Porsche does not look like a bad value. Perhaps a bad value according to your own personal value system of how much you like this function or that, PF or not, .. I get that. But don't consider your own personal tastes, objectively.... is it really that bad??

Sorry, but the undeniable fact is that this is an expensive set, and people will be and are put off by a 300 Euro price tag. It has nothing to do with personal feel or gut reaction. Three hundred Euros is simply a lot of money for most people. And many are talking about the packaging and booklet because, while they are nice, it seems a lot of the cost has gone into these and the licensing rather than the actual set and functions. I'm not saying it's a bad set, or even that it is particularly bad value, but it is expensive and it could easily have been cheaper.

[BusterHaus]

This to say there are two 'groups' of AFOLs, those who see this as an iconic set and those who see it as just another set of parts, ultimately destined to be recycled for other MOCs.

Bingo. Many will look at this set as a display set, destined to sit in a dust-free glass case and brought out from time to time to be admired. The thick instruction book is part of the experience, as is the fancy packaging. The price is actually quite in line with PPP and the packaging/instructions added up. This group cares about actual sets and the experience they bring.

However, if you're like me, you look at this set and say "How can I reuse the new parts in a different way?" All my boxes have ended up in the recycling bin (I don't waste time on selling them) and the instruction books are stored in a filing cabinet, out of sight. Most builds, be it official models or MOCs, get torn down within a couple of weeks after completion. With this attitude, the price is too high. I can buy the new parts on the secondary market and still be ahead financially. People in this group don't care about they experience, they only care about PPP.

I don't think there's a right way to think about the value of this set. It really depends on your approach to this hobby.

[Blakbird]

Pretty much every supercar MOC I have ever reproduced has been more than $300 and with fewer parts than this. I'd say it is a pretty good deal based on my experience of cars this size. Keep in mind, LEGO has never made a car this size so there is no basis of official comparison. What's the difference between 1:8 and the usual 1:10? This (the Mustang is 1:8):

[JGW3000]

41999 price has stabilized at around $320 to $350… Although it does have PF's, this shows that there is a market for sets in this price range.

[Lipko]

If I'm not mistaken, MOCs are expensive mostly because rare parts.

The price is high for me because the Porsche has about the same number of parts as the Arocs (which had pneumatics) but more than 1.5 the prize. The absolute prize is something I never spent on a single set (once I bought 8110 and 9398 at the same time for about 300 Euros). However, those orange parts would be very useful for my parts collection and the chassis seems to be exciting. I'm waiting for reviews but probably I won't buy it. It's totally awesome but I'll let it go just like I did with 42009.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Lipko

[Saberwing40k]

The Porsche is not a bad value, I'd actually say it is a good value in comparison to some stuff from this year. The Porsche somehow actually has even more parts than 42043, and costs more. In terms of what we get, and exclusive molding, like the wheels are probably a licensed Porsche design, that Lego can not reuse, unless it is in another Porsche model, the set looks to be a fair value. It's not a super value, but it's not a ripoff. $300 might be a lot of money, but if you can budget for that, it is well worth it. People are grousing about it, but the set is only 10% more expensive than the ideal ratio of 10C per part would suggest. However, people are not griping about the price of 42050, which is a full 30% above what it should be priced as, and has no real excuse, no fancy packaging, no new molds, and not even that many good functions. So, I think the question is not whether or not it's a good value. It's as if some people are looking for an excuse to not buy it. If you don't want it, that's fine, nobody is making you buy it. Personally, it's a cool set, but the Xerion is higher up my list of priorities.

[BimmerBoy]

A lot of the complainers will buy it anyway...

Why do PF matter so much to some? I can understand wanting lights, but a Lego car this size will be SLOW if driven by PF. I turned my 42000 into a Ferrari F1 car and added PF. It is SLOW, and it weighs a lot less than this Porsche will. Even to get lights, they would have had to use the small PF battery box, which is still a space eater. I honestly do not understand how people think PF would have justified the price...

This is a premium, large scale product, not a little Speed Champions set. If it is out of your price range, oh well, life goes on. Save your money to buy one, or wait a couple of years and bricklink one. I can't afford a real Porsche 911; I don't gripe that Porsche did not "take away features" to make it more affordable so I could maybe buy one.

I want this set, and I will have to do some things to make sure I have money for it (use VIP points, cut back on other fun/hobby expenses in my life, etc).

Edited April 26, 2016 by BimmerBoy

[Ondra]

Sorry, but the undeniable fact is that this is an expensive set, and people will be and are put off by a 300 Euro price tag. It has nothing to do with personal feel or gut reaction. Three hundred Euros is simply a lot of money for most people. And many are talking about the packaging and booklet because, while they are nice, it seems a lot of the cost has gone into these and the licensing rather than the actual set and functions. I'm not saying it's a bad set, or even that it is particularly bad value, but it is expensive and it could easily have been cheaper.

Exactly you made a point!When I can have more fun for better price everything other seems to be be pricier.Im not interested in licensing, Im not that kind of guy that needs everything with someones badge.

Also PPP in technic world?Where is 1/3 of sets pins etc?This is joke isnt it, these parts cost almost zero not 10 cent per piece as in this set.

Lego is like company Apple.But apple product are usable, not just for fun as lego which is only piece of plastic.

P.s.:My porsche experience will be reading instructions and looking and autoart diecast 1:12 porsche gt3 rs which cost in my shop 350€ ...

[SilenWin]

So, I think the question is not whether or not it's a good value. It's as if some people are looking for an excuse to not buy it. If you don't want it, that's fine, nobody is making you buy it.

This is absolutely right point! All this discussions about price are useless because of different possibilities and wishes of different people.

[rollermonkey]

Relative value, whether PPP or PPmass, is only one part of the reaction when it comes to price. Ultimately, total price is what delivers sticker shock. 10179 had a great PPP value. That doesn't mean that seeing a LEGO set cost $500 wasn't a surprise, and it's relatively short shelf life suggests that it didn't sell well, even if it is now one of the most desired sets out there.

$300 is a premium price point for Technic. Sure, it may be a fantastic value, it is still a bit staggering when that hundreds column rolls over. Most parents have no idea what the average PPP is, or even that the concept exists. They see a toy that costs $300 and react solely based on that number. The notion that sets in general have more parts, and thus cost more on average is valid.

The first SW:TFA wave is a great example. In the past, there might be 1 or 2 sets at the $15 dollar price level for a new SW wave. The Fall15 wave had one at $20 and they went up fast from there. The average set price in the wave was higher, and the PPP for the wave was actually pretty bad as well.

Remade models tend to have higher piece counts, with smaller parts and higher accuracy. The number of jumbo-sized sets is increasing, with SW UCS dropping multiple times per year, plus Creator Expert sets coming a bit more frequently, and sets in other themes like the Tumbler and Helicarrier and the Ghostbusters Firehouse pushing average piece counts up.

Yes, historically speaking, PPP is relatively unchanged, but most people who see a price don't then whip out a calculator to check the price breakdown per component.

It's the gradual price creep of complete sets that is starting to get people's attention.

Edited April 26, 2016 by rollermonkey

[Kendo12]

Its a solid PASS from me

[Anio]

Pretty much every supercar MOC I have ever reproduced has been more than $300 and with fewer parts than this. I'd say it is a pretty good deal based on my experience of cars this size.

You can hardly compare the price of a MOC and the price of a mass-produced model...

[agrof]

I see, why it costs that much as an ultimate package, with greater building experience. In my understanding in the building instructions follows paralell the actual Porsche production assembly line, which is a nice add-on, + premium sequenced packaging, art scaling (within LEGO bourders) makes it a very good eye-catcher collector piece. I do believe, that this kind of extra service will touch many no LEGO involved market segments too (RC, die-cast or even real car collectors). In this point of view, I underline this set's viability, the price will be no issue.

As an afol... well, I am on the other side. Personally I appretiate more the smaller, technically more dense, more complex builds. Speaking about cars, just examples: rm8' FJ40; Sheepo's modular Land Rover, Pdvb's Koenigsegg; and many many more. Bigger is not necessarily better for my eyes.

So, for me it is way too much money for a single set regardless the PPP, could be I am just not petrol head enough. BUT, I will absolutely enjoy watching, reading all the coming reviews, with a cup of coffee.

Like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Pass it.

Edited April 26, 2016 by agrof

[Cumulonimbus]

I must say I'm a bit surprised by all the negative comments related to this set. I want to add some argument in its defense:

- Except for the 41999, I have never purchased any Technic flagships for the price TLG has mentioned when these sets were launched. This might be a privilege of living in The Netherlands, but I have seen reduced prices in other EU countries as well. If the news is correct that this set will be available via the regular (web)shops, I really expect some offers which will reduce the price as much as 20%.

- Like Sariel has mentioned, I suspect a lot of people underestimate the complexity and size of this set. I think a side by side comparison with for example a 42039 will be very revealing.

- I feel that this set took a lot more development time and effort than a regular flagship, this means that the development cost might be higher, leading to a higher target cost price.

- A lot of people don't get Technic. Read the comments below this Gizmodo article to see what I mean.

[Ngoc Nguyen]

I think one of the reason for the prohibitive price is to prevent a big surge of orders that may lead to out-of-stock. To me, if something sells out in a short period of time it wouldn't feel very premium or exclusive.