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Le Fourageux, French third-rate ship of the line, minifig scale!


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292 replies to this topic  – Started by Captain Blackmoor , May 11 2009 07:23 PM

#226 Aalak

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 03:18 PM

View PostCaptMc, on 17 May 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

It was only the British fleet, under orders from Nelson himself (despite contradicting orders from the Admiralty) that painted their ships Black & Yellow, in order to stop friendly fire accidents. Neither the French Fleet or the Spanish Fleet had a standard colour scheme in 1805. Nelson was the first officer to order his ships painted yellow and black, and the fleet kept this colour scheme has a memorial to their great leader. So building a Spanish or French ship of 1805 in yellow and black would be incorrect.
Welcome to the Forum CaptMc. First of all to bump up old threats like that isn't the best way to say hello to this forum, especially If you refer to a statement wich is allmost 2 Years old, but it's still better than bumping that thread up to say "It's a nice ship" (Wich LE Fourageux definitly is).

As to your remark. There is nothing wrong with the statement of the Admiral. As far as I know, there are not enough sources to discribe every frensh colorscheme present at Travalgar, but you can find a lot of sources about "how to paint your Napoleonic Era Ships to be historic accurate" ... Two of these sites are going along with the quote, even Wikipedia suggest, that the Nelson Checker was used by the Americans during the War of 1812... "and a lot of other nations" one of them the French...
To quote Larsonweb.com:
"French ships
Le Guerrier: Dark yellow sides
L’ Aquilon: Red sides with a black stroke between the upper and lower gun ports
Le Franklin: Medium yellow sides
Le Heureux: Very dark yellow sides
Le Timoleon: Very dark red sides
Le Guillaume: Light yellow sides with black stroke between upper and lower decks

Some examples of ships at The Battle of Trafalgar 1805 taken from a data sheet provided by GHQ and other sources:

All of the British ships were painted in the "Nelson Checker" of alternating black and yellow stripes and black gun ports. To further distinguish the British ships from the French/Spanish ships, the British painted their masts yellow instead of having the normal varnished wood. Yards and mast tops were still black. There was no standard color scheme among the French and Spanish ships. The French ship Neptune for example had reddish-yellow stripes on a black hull while the Intrepide might have had bright red stripes Others had red or yellow stripes of various shades. Some Spanish ships such as the San Justo and Santa Anna were painted almost all black and the Spanish Santissima Trinidad, a four deck ship-of-the-line, had a deep red hull and a narrow band of white under each of the four rows of gun ports. Other sources suggest that the S. Trinidad was painted red with white stripes, and another description gives it red stripes edged white on black, and yet, one other reference suggests that the ship was actually white, with red stripes!"

But once again, welcome to the Forum  :pir_laugh2:

#227 Dread Pirate Wesley

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:08 PM

View PostCaptMc, on 17 May 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

So building a Spanish or French ship of 1805 in yellow and black would be incorrect.

Im sorry but this is an incorrect statement.  To add to what Aalak has said, perhaps one of the most famous French ships at Trafalgar, the 74 Redoutable, was painted almost identically to the HMS Temaraire that was attacking her.  In fact, many crew letters and memoirs of the battle suggest that the only thing that distinguished French from British in that early engagement was a massive French standard flown at her stern (and the obvious size discrepancy).

This wasn't exactly the dark ages, just over 200 years ago, so there is still plenty of research material, personal letters, orders, eyewitness accounts, period paintings, etc. that suggest that ships were indeed similar in color very often, regardless of who they belonged to.

We can argue over different hues of yellow and how accurate they are but when it comes to Lego, if a ship is yellow and black and French that is certainly a plausible recreation in my eyes.

:jollyroger: Dread Pirate Wesley

Edited by Dread Pirate Wesley, 17 May 2011 - 07:26 PM.

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#228 Hendawg212

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 04:15 AM

This looks amazing, the size of this ship is mind boggeling. I cant even imagine how many legos went into that. It might just be me, but i really want to see detailed pictures of the cabins, and i think the cabin windows would look alot better with the lattice style inserts. But im extremely biased toward the lattice windows, i just love them.

#229 Darth Yogi

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 09:39 PM

Well since this has been bumped I can say how great this huge ship is.  Its amazing how big and detailed it is, and I really  :pir-wub: the bows detail.

Great job :thumbup:
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#230 Captain Blackmoor

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 11:10 AM

View PostHendawg212, on 19 May 2011 - 04:15 AM, said:

This looks amazing, the size of this ship is mind boggeling. I cant even imagine how many legos went into that. It might just be me, but i really want to see detailed pictures of the cabins, and i think the cabin windows would look alot better with the lattice style inserts. But im extremely biased toward the lattice windows, i just love them.
Thank you Hendawg! There are some detailed cabin pictures on my brickshelf. :pir-wink: Lattice windows were uncommon in the late 17th century, the perfect window however would consist of 6 smaller windows in one instead of 4 which Le Fourageux has now.

View PostDarth Yogi, on 19 May 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

Well since this has been bumped I can say how great this huge ship is.  Its amazing how big and detailed it is, and I really  :pir-wub: the bows detail.

Great job :thumbup:
Thank you Darth Yogi. :pir-sweet:

Now for some information:

In October 2010 Le Fourageux has been at Legoworld, the place where I discovered how fragile the whole ship actually was. You could almost stand on it, but if you moved it sideways the ship fell apart quite easily. :pir-cry_sad:

Now, that has changed!

The hull has undergone a massive update, and she is now a minifig scale third-rate ship of the line carrying 64 or 74 guns. She is wider (now 48 studs) and longer, although I have no idea how long exactly. Also because she isn't finished yet at the stern.
The ship is completely modular and I'm slowly working my way towards the stern, with so much new techniques. :pir-cry_happy:
I have added a lot of dark blue in it now as well and the interior has never been so detailed before. :pir-wub: The stern should become the crown of my work, and my own expectations are high as I have developed new techniques which make it possible to build in weird curves.

I wasn't too happy with the flat bow either, so I have upgraded the bow as well by using a brand new technique. And it works! The bow looks impressive and it even scares me sometimes.
:pir-sweet:

I will include pictures soon, as I somehow lost my camera charger.. And I do not own such a fancy mobile with a camera. :pir-grin: I'll try to get my hands on a friends' camera, as ordening a new charger takes so long...

So... just some information for you guys, feel free to ask questions! :pir-wink:

Cheers!

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#231 Skipper

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 12:22 PM

I swear I almost had a heart attack when I saw this bumped  :pir_laugh2:. I was hoping for pictures. NOW! :pir-tongue:

WIll she still be a waterline model, or are you going for a brickbuilt hull like CGH's? Those techniques sound interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing them. Good to know you're changing the bow, as brilliant as the ship was already that was one part I felt looked a little off.

Keep it up!
Cheers

#232 Dread Pirate Wesley

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 05:39 PM

Wahey! A ship to offer a rare action I trust  :pir_laugh2: Looking forward to the update

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#233 Captain Blackmoor

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:08 PM

As promised, a little update for you guys. :pir-tongue:
Progress is extremely fast last weeks, as I already have most of the parts and sometimes hours on-end to build.

Posted Image
Here is a view of the bow, featuring brand new techniques. The bow still needs heaps of work, especially the headrails and the prow details.

Posted Image
The larboard lower gundeck, just behind the foremast. The pig pen and chicken coop are located just behind the anchorholes, surrounded by thick anchor cables. More cannons will be added in the future. As well for crew and more details.

Posted Image
Please take a look at the bow, feedback on this part is very welcome! :pir-sweet:

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There she floats! :pir-tongue: She is at about 40% of her length. You can spot black jumperplates in the tumblehome, these will be replaced with yellow ones.

An intersting collection of more pictures is here.

Thank you for your attention, feel free to ask questions as I remain seated in my chair for several hours, trying to answer them. :pir_laugh2:

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#234 Commander Red Hat

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:26 PM

The new shape of the bow is definitely an improvement over the old, it is also very smooth!  :thumbup:
I wonder how you are going to make the anchor ports open, so the cables can go through.
Also the deck on your bow is not correct I think, but it looks incomplete so I think you are getting my point.  :pir-wink:
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#235 Hiawatha

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

This is very well built and detailed! :pir-sweet: great job!

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View Postefullner, on 06 October 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I can figure what Dey will say when he meets with Hiawatha.

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#236 Big Cam

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:16 PM

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 04 November 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

There she floats! :pir-tongue: She is at about 40% of her length.



:pir-oh: :pir-oh:  

Serious!!!!!!

The size of it now is staggering, I love it!  Any ETA for completion so the blog can break down trying to house it. :shark:

#237 the Inventor

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:35 PM

Great updates, the new bow looks indeed much better (and smooth)  :thumbup:


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#238 Skipper

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 11:09 PM

Wow. The design, details, scale, everything is amazing.
The vastness of the deck is so impressive, I never imagined anything like that in LEGO.
The bow is a great improvement over the original as well, but I think you already know that.

Can't wait for another update!

Edited by Skipper, 05 November 2011 - 01:49 AM.


#239 Sebeus I

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 11:48 PM

Very nice, one thing that I noticed right away are the cannon port holes on the second gun deck, they look a bit high but I suppose you left some space to attach the hatches ?

#240 Corweena

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:44 AM

the sheer size of this thing is amazing  :pir-oh:

The new bow is definitely an improvement over the old one. I also really like your custom made carronades.
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#241 Horatio

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 02:51 AM

How is that bow so smooth? I just want to give up everything now- Seriously, this is one of the finest models I've seen, lego or otherwise. Really, how was the smooth texture aquired? Was it just a boat load of hinges? (ha, I made a pun.)
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#242 Hikaro Takayama

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 04:32 AM

THIRD-rate ship of the line?!  :pir-oh:  This thing is a BEAST!  Good work, but dang! that is one huge ship (and I do believe that it more than qualifies as a SHIP as well)...  That's about the size I'd be going for if I wanted to make a MOC of the Bismarck!

Still, looking good, so far, and I really like the authentic modeling of the interior structure (ship's frame and such).

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#243 Captain Blackmoor

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:35 AM

View PostCaptain Green Hair, on 04 November 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

The new shape of the bow is definitely an improvement over the old, it is also very smooth!  :thumbup:
I wonder how you are going to make the anchor ports open, so the cables can go through.
Also the deck on your bow is not correct I think, but it looks incomplete so I think you are getting my point.  :pir-wink:
Due to pressure it's almost impossible to leave 4 gaps for the anchorholes in the bow, the bow would loose it's strength and will become very fragile. So there will be a technic brick instead with a hole to get the anchor cable through.
The deck on the bow is indeed incomplete, no worries, it will be changed. :pir_laugh2:
Thank you for your feedback!

View PostHiawatha, on 04 November 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

This is very well built and detailed! :pir-sweet: great job!
Thanks! :pir-classic:

View PostBig Cam, on 04 November 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

:pir-oh: :pir-oh:  

Serious!!!!!!

The size of it now is staggering, I love it!  Any ETA for completion so the blog can break down trying to house it. :shark:
I have no ETA, not for the whole ship. But I'm sure you will see it coming! :pir_laugh2:
Thanks mate. :pir-classic:

View Postthe Inventor, on 04 November 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

Great updates, the new bow looks indeed much better (and smooth)  :thumbup:


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Thank you! :pir-sweet:

View PostSkipper, on 04 November 2011 - 11:09 PM, said:

Wow. The design, details, scale, everything is amazing.
The vastness of the deck is so impressive, I never imagined anything like that in LEGO.
The bow is a great improvement over the original as well, but I think you already know that.

Can't wait for another update!
Thank you Skip! I can't wait to build, right now there is a parcel waiting next to me with new bricks. :pir-wub:

View PostSebeus Iniwum, on 04 November 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

Very nice, one thing that I noticed right away are the cannon port holes on the second gun deck, they look a bit high but I suppose you left some space to attach the hatches ?
Ah yes, that's an interesting story!
When Perfectionist visited me and Admiral Croissant he pointed out that most French 74 gunships had no hatches at their upper gundeck. So I went ahead and removed them, I have not yet filled up their space with yellow plates. So indeed, the gunports look quite high, but not for long. :pir-wink:
Thanks Sebeus! :pir-sweet:

View PostCorweena, on 05 November 2011 - 12:44 AM, said:

the sheer size of this thing is amazing  :pir-oh:

The new bow is definitely an improvement over the old one. I also really like your custom made carronades.
Thank you! :pir-classic: There are more detailed pictures of the carronades a few pages back if you are interested.

View PostHoratio, on 05 November 2011 - 02:51 AM, said:

How is that bow so smooth? I just want to give up everything now- Seriously, this is one of the finest models I've seen, lego or otherwise. Really, how was the smooth texture aquired? Was it just a boat load of hinges? (ha, I made a pun.)
No hinges at all, there is not even one hinge in there. :pir-tongue:
It's all done by making a large wall, and then slightly bending it. It's only possible with 1x2 bricks and it takes months (at last for me) to find the balance between where a brick is capable of and the ship shape. I've reached the max of what was possible with this technique, concerning the bow. I need to refine some parts though, as this is just the first version.

View PostHikaro Takayama, on 05 November 2011 - 04:32 AM, said:

THIRD-rate ship of the line?!  :pir-oh:  This thing is a BEAST!  Good work, but dang! that is one huge ship (and I do believe that it more than qualifies as a SHIP as well)...  That's about the size I'd be going for if I wanted to make a MOC of the Bismarck!

Still, looking good, so far, and I really like the authentic modeling of the interior structure (ship's frame and such).
Thank you Hikaro! :pir-sweet:
I wish you all the best with your Bismarck, which is an awesome vessel.

Thank you all for your feedback, it's very much appreciated! :pir-sweet:

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#244 Admiral Croissant

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 03:41 PM

Very impressive!
You really did an excellent job so far on the smooth shapes and the connection between the bow and the rest.
I also like the dark blue details a lot and the gundeck already looks extremely realistic.
I agree with Green Hair that the bow needs some work. Especially this part IMO (cutwater supports).
Compared to this image, you can see that it doesn't reach the same level as the catheads.

So perhaps something like this would look better (although with my MS Paint skills it looks worse :pirate: )
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#245 Imperial Shipyards

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM

Ahoy, Captain, I've already seen you posting Friday night but wanted to gice a more detailed reply!

As you know I've seen her in real life a few weeks ago and I think you know what I think of her - and since you only made her longer that hasn't changed.  :pir-wink:

It's not so much criticism about the look or the techniques your using (she does look great! :thumbup: ), but rather about scale. She's simply far too big to be accurate! At minifigure scale even the "Ocean" or the "Santissima Trinidad" would be smaller than your ship and they were the biggest ships of their era.

I'm basing "Superbe" on the measurements of the Téméraire class (the real "Superbe" was of that class too!) which was 172 French feet long and 44 feet and 6 inches wide. I made that 172 studs long and 44 studs wide which is 1:42 and hence minifig scale.
Since almost all of the French 3rd rates during the napoleonic wars were built to that design your ship should have virtually the same measurements, if you want it to be accurate!
Alternatively you could make her an 80 gun ship, those were larger and a bit more powerful with 186 feet lenght at the gundeck and 46 feet width.


I also tried your technique a bit; it also works with a narrower hull! On that pic its 42 studs, but you could even bend it to 30!

Posted Image


Another note about the lenght: you already have 9 gunports on the lower gundeck, so if that's 40% you'd end up with 20 on each side which is more than any ship of the line ever had ... a French 74 would have 14 on each side of the lower and 15 on the upper gundeck, a 80 gun ship 15 and 16.

Personally I consider 7 stud spacing betweem the gunports most accurate, you seem to have 9 - again that's too big.
Also take into account the freeboard of your ship, i.e. the distancefrom the waterline to the lower gunports on a ship of the line it would be not much more than 5 feet which is the height of a minifig or less.

Another issue is the tumblehome. Consider that you should loose at least 10% of the deck width from the lower to the upper gundeck, French ships had less tumblehom than British ones, but yours is clearly not enough, again that makes the topdeck far too wide.

What I also just noticed is that while a yellow-on-black colourscheme would have been accurate for a Napoleonic French ship of the line, it would definitely not feature the "Nelson checker", that means the gunports would be yellow, not black on the outside! Also the masts would have their natural wood look (reddish brown or tan) instead of yellow! Only the British painted their masts, and they did that too distinguish their ships from the sometimes yellow painted Frenchmen!

Of course I'm a little bit crazy with my nitpicking here and I guess pretty much everybody else didn't notice any of that. So if you continue building her like that she still will be one of the best creations on the web! However I researched these things extensively for "Superbe" (which was already planned to be a 3rd rate when "Fourageux" was still a 4th rate), so I guess you're geting my point?  :pir-tongue:

Anyway it's great to see that you're still working on her and she does get better with every rebuild - but she's still far from perfection. :pir-grin:

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#246 Captain Becker

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 11:11 PM

Ah, so thats how he made the bow. thanks for that picture Perfectionist.
I do like the update, but i am also sad that you destroyed her, she was already almoust perfect IMO. And a it of critic, the cannons look a bit too small¨for this kind of ship.
But i will wait for new update, shes looking wonderful already. And did i mention that i cant wait to see her stern? Im intrested about the new techniques you are gonna use.

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#247 Corweena

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:16 AM

that really is a simple, yet effective bow design. And its made from probably the most common Lego brick. I can't wait to see what technique you use for the stern. Good luck with the rest of the ship!

Edited by Corweena, 07 November 2011 - 01:31 AM.

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#248 poud

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:35 AM

Hey,

That's a huge and amazing ship you're building.
I just add one brick to your work. As a French, your ship' name sounded strange to me. I think it's more like "le Courageux" (meaning the brave), or le Fourreux (which means the one who carries food for horses). Due to an old French tradition, enherited from Louis the Fourteen, the French ships were named with adjectives that could be given to their sovereign (le Superbe, Le téméraire, le Soleil-Royal).

I hope my explanation will help you ! :bonaparte:

#249 Captain Blackmoor

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Ahoy, Captain, I've already seen you posting Friday night but wanted to gice a more detailed reply!

As you know I've seen her in real life a few weeks ago and I think you know what I think of her - and since you only made her longer that hasn't changed.  :pir-wink:

It's not so much criticism about the look or the techniques your using (she does look great! :thumbup: ), but rather about scale. She's simply far too big to be accurate! At minifigure scale even the "Ocean" or the "Santissima Trinidad" would be smaller than your ship and they were the biggest ships of their era.
I have no plans of the "Ocean" but the "Santissima Trinidad" would certainly be larger according to the ship plans. I have considered to build the ST, but because of it's size I decided not to. :pir-wink:  

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

I'm basing "Superbe" on the measurements of the Téméraire class (the real "Superbe" was of that class too!) which was 172 French feet long and 44 feet and 6 inches wide. I made that 172 studs long and 44 studs wide which is 1:42 and hence minifig scale.
Since almost all of the French 3rd rates during the napoleonic wars were built to that design your ship should have virtually the same measurements, if you want it to be accurate!
Alternatively you could make her an 80 gun ship, those were larger and a bit more powerful with 186 feet lenght at the gundeck and 46 feet width.

The widest part of Le Fourageux is 46 studs, which is at the waterline. The tumblehome in the bow needs to be adjusted to get 38 to 40 studs in width on top of the forecastle, and at the moment of writing I'm working on that.
Also according to my references the scale is almost correct in terms of width. This picture below shows an example and it provides a very detailed view of a bow. It's from a British 74 though.

Posted Image

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

I also tried your technique a bit; it also works with a narrower hull! On that pic its 42 studs, but you could even bend it to 30!
*snip*
I've been researching this technique for several months, and by stacking 2 bricks high you can indeed bend further. That is however, impossible when that 'wall' is over 10 bricks high. Especially if you are implementing a tumblehome in it using jumper plates. And even if it holds, you will kill your bricks in the long term, they loose strenth and the construction will literally explode. :pir-grin: I've experienced it all, but feel free to give it a try.

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Another note about the lenght: you already have 9 gunports on the lower gundeck, so if that's 40% you'd end up with 20 on each side which is more than any ship of the line ever had ... a French 74 would have 14 on each side of the lower and 15 on the upper gundeck, a 80 gun ship 15 and 16.
It's about 40%, which means it varies between 30 and 50 percent. I don't know the exact percentage! She will have 15 guns on the lower deck, same as the Duquesne (See first post), which was a 74 gun ship of the Téméraire class.

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Personally I consider 7 stud spacing betweem the gunports most accurate, you seem to have 9 - again that's too big.
Also take into account the freeboard of your ship, i.e. the distancefrom the waterline to the lower gunports on a ship of the line it would be not much more than 5 feet which is the height of a minifig or less.
This is based on several factors, like the the loading weight of the ship. A ship with empty holds lies a meter(!) less deep in the water. Five feet is only seen at Second and First Rates, which could barely open the hatches on the lower gundeck at a rough sea. A Third Rate had no problems with that.
On top of that I refer back to the picture of the book earlier in this post. You can see there what the distance between the water surface and the lower gunports is. Based on that I think I've done it pretty accurate.

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Another issue is the tumblehome. Consider that you should loose at least 10% of the deck width from the lower to the upper gundeck, French ships had less tumblehome than British ones, but yours is clearly not enough, again that makes the topdeck far too wide.
When you visited me you have indeed pointed me at this issue, and like I told you it's the first thing on the list to fix! I just had to expand the ship a bit to get the tumblehome in harmony. :pir-wink:

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

What I also just noticed is that while a yellow-on-black colourscheme would have been accurate for a Napoleonic French ship of the line, it would definitely not feature the "Nelson checker", that means the gunports would be yellow, not black on the outside! Also the masts would have their natural wood look (reddish brown or tan) instead of yellow! Only the British painted their masts, and they did that too distinguish their ships from the sometimes yellow painted Frenchmen!
I've based my ship in the beginning on the French Bucentaure, which had a checker pattern and yellow masts. Otherwise I would have changed that already. I'm also looking at the Duquesne, regarding the coloursheme. Problem is, the hatches are opened so you can only see the red side of them. :pir-grin: Red and yellow on the hatches doesn't really combine well I think, so that's why they are black. I will look into it though, as yellow hatches look awesome when they are closed..

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Of course I'm a little bit crazy with my nitpicking here and I guess pretty much everybody else didn't notice any of that. So if you continue building her like that she still will be one of the best creations on the web! However I researched these things extensively for "Superbe" (which was already planned to be a 3rd rate when "Fourageux" was still a 4th rate), so I guess you're geting my point?  :pir-tongue:

I've researched almost only Third Rates, as there was not much reference material for Fourth Rates.. :pir-look: So yeah, I've done my research as well, but from other sources. And I'm placing my accents on different aspects.
You are a true perfectionist after all, and I really appreciate such detailed feedback as that really aids me in the process! Althouh it looks like a debate sometimes I think it's an amazing learning process as well! :pir-sweet:

View PostPerfectionist, on 06 November 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Anyway it's great to see that you're still working on her and she does get better with every rebuild - but she's still far from perfection. :pir-grin:
In my humble opinion it's nearly perfect, at least it's a personal endeavour! :pir-sweet:
Thank you very much for this very detailed feedback! :pir-cry_happy:

View PostCaptain Becker, on 06 November 2011 - 11:11 PM, said:

Ah, so thats how he made the bow. thanks for that picture Perfectionist.
I do like the update, but i am also sad that you destroyed her, she was already almoust perfect IMO. And a it of critic, the cannons look a bit too small¨for this kind of ship.
But i will wait for new update, shes looking wonderful already. And did i mention that i cant wait to see her stern? Im intrested about the new techniques you are gonna use.

Captain Becker

She is not destroyed! :pir-wink: Only the bow and masts are gone. The rest of the ship is just split up in sections, safely stored.
The cannons aren't too small, the gunports are just a bit too large as I ran out of yellow plates. Easy fix!
I also cannot wait to start with the stern, as that will be awesome!

View PostCorweena, on 07 November 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:

that really is a simple, yet effective bow design. And its made from probably the most common Lego brick. I can't wait to see what technique you use for the stern. Good luck with the rest of the ship!

Thanks mate! :pir-sweet:

View Postpoud, on 07 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

Hey,

That's a huge and amazing ship you're building.
I just add one brick to your work. As a French, your ship' name sounded strange to me. I think it's more like "le Courageux" (meaning the brave), or le Fourreux (which means the one who carries food for horses). Due to an old French tradition, enherited from Louis the Fourteen, the French ships were named with adjectives that could be given to their sovereign (le Superbe, Le téméraire, le Soleil-Royal).

I hope my explanation will help you ! :bonaparte:

The name is indeed a bit strange, Le Fougeuex is also a French Third Rate. That's a bit where I based the name on in the very beginning of this project. I just keep the name as it reminds me of the amazing process this ship has gone through. "Fourage" sounds like Feeding, thus the Fourageux became the scavenger of the seas. These were my very first ideas! After all it would be better to name, and base her on Le Duquesne, Le Bucentaure or Le Fougeuex. All French Third Rates which look almost the same.
Thank you for your feedback! :pir-sweet:

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

I have no plans of the "Ocean" but the "Santissima Trinidad" would certainly be larger according to the ship plans. I have considered to build the ST, but because of it's size I decided not to. :pir-wink:  

I'm sorry, but you're missing my point: with 9 stud spacing between the gunports and 14 on each side it will become too long; in fact your hull would be about 200 studs at the waterline which is way too much! The Santissima was 201 feet at the gundeck; so yeah with 9 stud spacing you'll be building a 3rd rate as long as the Santissima!

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

The widest part of Le Fourageux is 46 studs, which is at the waterline. The tumblehome in the bow needs to be adjusted to get 38 to 40 studs in width on top of the forecastle, and at the moment of writing I'm working on that.
Also according to my references the scale is almost correct in terms of width. This picture below shows an example and it provides a very detailed view of a bow. It's from a British 74 though.
46 studs sounds good to me - if it's at the very widest part of the ship! 40ish at the forecastle should be fine too, although it looks like 44 to me at the moment.

I wouldn't base her so much on British ships, they were very different in a lot of ways. Especially the bow and stern would look much different, but the tumblehome and all curves would be much different too! Generally British ships were smaller and more curved, they had 28 guns on the upper gundeck whereas the French had 30 and 18 on the topdeck compared to 16.

This is a British ship the HMS Bellona:

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This is a French model, build to the plans of Jean Boudriot :pir-wink: :

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Also note the bow:

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You should see that the headrails are curved very low. Also there are gunports next to the doors for chaser guns! The headrails are so low so the guns could fire. The French traditionally included gunports for bow chasers on their 2-deckers from the 17th century onwards. The reason is that they had to face Barbary Corsairs and their Xebecs
which could easily outmaneuver a lone ships of the line.
You can actually find a proof of this in the book "The Ship" from Björn Landström, page 167 (in the German version :pir-grin: ) Admiral Croissant should have it!

So on a French ship the headrails would curve much lower and the deck between them would be far wider than on a British one.  :pir-wink:

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

She will have 15 guns on the lower deck, same as the Duquesne (See first post), which was a 74 gun ship of the Téméraire class.

Nope, they had 2x14=28! If you don't believe me, click here!

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Five feet is only seen at Second and First Rates, which could barely open the hatches on the lower gundeck at a rough sea. A Third Rate had no problems with that.
On top of that I refer back to the picture of the book earlier in this post. You can see there what the distance between the water surface and the lower gunports is. Based on that I think I've done it pretty accurate.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. HMS Anson which was build as a 64gun 3rd rate in 1781 had a freeboard of less than 5ft. When she was cut down to a frigate (razéed)it was reported to be 6ft 4in. Source: "Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars" by Robert Gardiner.

Also in the book "The Ship" it is mentioned that some First Rates had a freeboard of just 1,2m (page 166)!
It was indeed very common practice for battlefleets to wait for calm winds before engaging!
Facing frigates in rough seas, the low gunports could become a serious drawback!

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

I've based my ship in the beginning on the French Bucentaure, which had a checker pattern and yellow masts.

The "Bucentaure" is a "ghost ship" in history, i.e. there is almost no reliable information on it, no plans, nothing. She was in service only from 1804-1805 since she didn't survive Trafalgar and - due to the blockade spend most of her lifetime in port.

There is just one painting of her, but the painter is unknown and it's black and white.

If you refer to this painting, you should know that the painter, Aguste Mayer, was born in 1805 and has probably never seen a ship of that period. He most likely made that colourscheme up from his fantasy. :pir-grin:

View PostCaptain Blackmoor, on 07 November 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Althouh it looks like a debate sometimes I think it's an amazing learning process as well! :pir-sweet:

I apologize for that! I don't mean to teach you or win a debate, but instead just share some of the knowledge I aquired. Like I said, if this is getting too much into detail, just ignore my words. I can also stop with all these references if you don't wish so much historical accuracy! After all this is just a Lego and not a model building forum; although I visited the latter quite often recently. :pir-blush:

Just tell me if you wish different feedback!

I wish you much sucess completing her - as accurate as you wish.

Cheers!

-Perfectionist

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