21 replies to this topic

[pif500]

113A
my entry for the JRC2 in category POTCship:

gallery:http://www.brickshel...ry.cgi?f=464073

[mobricki]

This is a nice little ship.

[Scorpiox]

Nice ship! I like the hull design, can we have more pics?

[lt.Gonville brickhead]

It's a very nice ship but is there an interior.

[Aalak]

Perfectionist will love that. Another ship with hose-headrails-design. The color-scheme is lovely, too. Just one tiny thing, the rigging. How can anybody climb the yards without the cross-rigging  

But a great MOC. Can't wait till the Brickshelf ordner is public! More feedback than!

[brickmack]

Needs cross rigging and the guy above me said. Other than that, great little ship. Is it made with parts from the brickbeard's bounty set? I notice most of the parts can be found in that set

[Admiral Croissant]

Nice ship. That's worth a blog.

It has a nice mix of realistic colours and the shape is quite good as well.
The square sails are a bit too small and placed too high IMO. But on a fantasy ship that's not a big problem.
What I would change though is the position of the anchor. Just turn it in the opposite direction like this:

And perhaps a flag or banner would be nice.
I'm looking forward to the folder turning to public

[Perfectionist]

That's a rather nice ship you got there and well worth being blogged,

BUT I reckon that you used techniques from maydayartist ( wooden side walls), Captain Blackmoor (lantern) and possibly myself (headrails) without giving any credit in any form.

I am not impressed.  

[Bart]

just wondering were does it say somebody 'owns' a technique to connect Lego pieces? Because he or she is the first one to make a picture of it doesn't have to mean he or she is the inventor of it.
or do we also have to credit the person who thought of using string instead of the Lego pieces.

I just realise I may sound a bit negative here, that is not the aim, just honestly questioning the credit request.

Bart

[mikey]

Perfectionist, on 07 March 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

That's a rather nice ship you got there and well worth being blogged,

BUT I reckon that you used techniques from maydayartist ( wooden side walls), Captain Blackmoor (lantern) and possibly myself (headrails) without giving any credit in any form.

I am not impressed.  

Are you for real?  Techniques do not belong to people.  If you are that upset that a technique which you consider 'belongs to you' might be used by other people, I suggest in the future you keep your Lego to yourself.  Best not splash it all over the web again!

As for referencing, or 'giving credit'...  We are building with Lego not writing an academic article, lets not take ourselves to seriously now!

Nice ship by the way pif500.  I don't know that much about pirate ships, but this definitely is looking like it could float and sail well!

Edited by mikey, 07 March 2011 - 04:45 PM.

[Perfectionist]

Bart, on 07 March 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

just wondering were does it say somebody 'owns' a technique to connect Lego pieces? Because he or she is the first one to make a picture of it doesn't have to mean he or she is the inventor of it.
or do we also have to credit the person who thought of using string instead of the Lego pieces.

I just realise I may sound a bit negative here, that is not the aim, just honestly questioning the credit request.

Bart

There has been an entry in the Brothers Brick Blog that very much encourages builders to give credit and i'll link to it when I'm home (on my iphone now). This really isn't supposed to be captious, but an attempt to call for something that should be self-evident. None of the three techniques I mentioned are well-known and they are very specific too. If no credit is given, the builder creates the impression he invented them all by himself; which, in this case, is wrong.

[Derfel Cadarn]

First of all, nice ship Piff! You have made some great entries for the JRC this year, and this is another good entry, as you are restricted to only make a ship from the films, which is a lot trickier then being able to make your own where anything goes. So well done and good luck in the contest.

Secondly, as far as this credit for technique goes, I can understand what Perfectionist is trying to say, but also see where others are coming from. The problem is, theres no way to ever know who really comes up with what, as theres probably people out there who never post pics on line but have come up with techniques long before we ever see them online. Not to mention the designers who work for lego, they have access to every part and new parts before we even get hold of them, so they have probably done it all before. We can't patent our techniques. However, it is the particular techniques we create and use that gives us our own styles. For example, I have a certain style known for its use of 1x1 rounds and detail which makes my mocs recognisable as a 'Derfel moc'. Suddenly a lot of people where copying it on Mocpages and other people were commenting that these people were amazing for coming up with that look and it made me feel a bit peeved as some were complete copies of my work. But, you just have to not let it bother you. At the end of the day, everyone on this forum knows who comes up with certain things. When I first looked at this moc I never thought that Piff had come up with the hull technique or the hose rail technique as I already know who used them first. Same as all the other regular members on here. We know who comes up with what. Piff has looked at different techniques and used what he thought looked good, so you should be flattered that people want to use your techniques. Thats how I feel anyway, I usually only give credit when I use something that is blatently someone else's infamous technique.

Sorry Piff for clogging up your thread.

[mattb483]

A very nice ship there! All the details on it are very nice. I am 50/50 on the credit part. I do think that you should credit people but, there are so many moc's out there that it's hard to track sometimes who is the inventor of a certain teqnique. I've seen alot of good moc's here and alot of them use same ideas as others, to me that's the whole part for this fourm to share your creations and help future builders with ideas. People who deserve credit in my eyes are people like captain green hair who have made whole tutorials on how to make a full ship. Well that's just my 2 cents and I hope I didn't offend anybody..

[Derfel Cadarn]

mattb483, on 07 March 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

A very nice ship there! All the details on it are very nice. I am 50/50 on the credit part. I do think that you should credit people but, there are so many moc's out there that it's hard to track sometimes who is the inventor of a certain teqnique. I've seen alot of good moc's here and alot of them use same ideas as others, to me that's the whole part for this fourm to share your creations and help future builders with ideas. People who deserve credit in my eyes are people like captain green hair who have made whole tutorials on how to make a full ship. Well that's just my 2 cents and I hope I didn't offend anybody..

Yes I agree there. I think what Perfectionist is getting at is that 90% of people who build ships use or vistit this forum, so we all can see when a technique is used that we havn't seen before. Perfectionist obviously worked hard on his ship and his technique with the hose's was the first time any of us here had seen it used and its probably one of the best ways to achieve the desired effect. So if someone else uses it on their moc without giving credit then other people might see it and use it giving credit to Piff. Then it eventually goes full circle untill someone comments on Perfectionists ship and says he stole the idea from Piff! So thats the point really. Like I said before, ive never been bothered too much about receiving credit myself, but I will always give it when I use a great technique from someone who I know came up with it.

[Perfectionist]

Ok, first of all, here is the Brothers Brick blog entry I mentioned.  

Derfel Cardarn, on 07 March 2011 - 05:45 PM, said:

The problem is, theres no way to ever know who really comes up with what, as theres probably people out there who never post pics on line but have come up with techniques long before we ever see them online.

Sorry, but it is extremely unlikely that someone comes up with exactly the same technique or even 3 of them, even more so when they are very specific and sophisticated.
Probably this isn't so much of an issue in building land based MOCs where every single one is special in it's very own way, but in shipbuilding the amount of specialized bricks concentrated on a rather small place means that the use of specific techniques is what distinguishes a MOC from others much more than elsewhere.
Also the amount of time it takes to build a highly detailed ship is significantly larger (usually several months), i.e. more time is spent on figuring certain things out. These achievements can however be copied in just a few minutes.

mattb483, on 07 March 2011 - 06:10 PM, said:

People who deserve credit in my eyes are people like captain green hair who have made whole tutorials on how to make a full ship. Well that's just my 2 cents and I hope I didn't offend anybody..

The fact that CGH is a well known builder here, a staff member too, and also made a tutorial shouldn't be an important measure for judging weather he deserves credit or not. It only makes it more difficult to steal from him.

What does make his techniques so significant that they are always worth being credited however is how many possibilities they offer; and how widely they are used by other shipbuilders. Just think about how far you can get on a combined tumblehome and hull curve without him: not very!

Derfel Cardarn, on 07 March 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

Then it eventually goes full circle untill someone comments on Perfectionists ship and says he stole the idea from Piff! So thats the point really.

I'm much more concerned about maydayartist's technique for making the sides of the ship. He did make a tutorial on how to achieve the plank look with log bricks; and now all of that knowledge, the hard work he put in is used without referring to him in any way.
Really, this isn't personal in any way, but I feel that as a matter of decency there should be some basic rule on how to give credit and deal with other's ideas and techniques with which we can all work.

This discussion may shift the focus a bit from pif500's ship, but I think it's important nonetheless.

[cb4]

Perfectionist, on 08 March 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

I'm much more concerned about maydayartist's technique for making the sides of the ship. He did make a tutorial on how to achieve the plank look with log bricks; and now all of that knowledge, the hard work he put in is used without referring to him in any way.
Really, this isn't personal in any way, but I feel that as a matter of decency there should be some basic rule on how to give credit and deal with other's ideas and techniques with which we can all work.

This discussion may shift the focus a bit from pif500's ship, but I think it's important nonetheless.

The sides of pif500's ship have no curve where the log bricks are used - I don't think you can claim that he used maydayartist's technique at all without seeing the inside of the ship. I don't think anyone should be able to demand credit for something as simple as using a particular kind of brick in a fairly trivial way.

While it's nice to receive credit for one's innovations, it seems a bit over the top to assume that nobody could ever come up with the same idea independently. If you think that someone has used your work as a reference, you can always send them a private message ask them where they got it from and to explain that it is polite to give credit if they used your model.

In some ways this whole discussion seems pretty dangerous to me. If I come up with a technique that solves a particular problem in an optimal way, and I post it here, am I to be able to demand credit every time it is used thereafter in perpetuity? What if there is no better way to do it, or if the other ways of doing it aren't as elegant or have more problems? What if someone comes up with an new way of using my technique that is in itself novel? Who gets the credit then? The whole point of coming here for me is to share ideas, not hold them hostage. If someone uses one of my techniques and doesn't choose to credit me, it's disappointing but I don't really have a problem with that. I would have a problem if they claimed to have invented it themselves, because that would be a false statement (unless of course they came up with it independently, which is more-or-less plausible depending on the complexity). I want to build awesome MOCs, but more than that I want others to build awesome MOCs, so I develop techniques in the hope that others will use them and further develop them.

The easiest way to make sure that you are credited (indirectly) is probably by making your technique's name part of the lexicon. This has happened with CGH's technique because he created a nice tutorial and it's much easier to refer to the method as "CGH's technique" or "CGH's tumblehome technique" than to say "shims under hinged sides with jumper offsets". Really though I think that CGH has a big advantage here because his acronym is only three characters  

[Perfectionist]

cb4, on 08 March 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

In some ways this whole discussion seems pretty dangerous to me. If I come up with a technique that solves a particular problem in an optimal way, and I post it here, am I to be able to demand credit every time it is used thereafter in perpetuity? What if there is no better way to do it, or if the other ways of doing it aren't as elegant or have more problems? What if someone comes up with an new way of using my technique that is in itself novel? Who gets the credit then? The whole point of coming here for me is to share ideas, not hold them hostage. If someone uses one of my techniques and doesn't choose to credit me, it's disappointing but I don't really have a problem with that. I would have a problem if they claimed to have invented it themselves, because that would be a false statement (unless of course they came up with it independently, which is more-or-less plausible depending on the complexity).

Why do you have a problem with adding one, just one (!) tiny little sentence? When there really isn't a better way to do it, then the technique certainly deserves credit. Otherwise there's just no motivation to share detailed pics of your MOCs, which wouldn't be good for the community; but it does happen a lot already!
Why should anybody want to share a certain way of putting bricks together, on which he has worked for hours if not days and all he gets is that others use it and claim it as their own technique, because that is what essentially happens when no credit is given. No credit means that the builder claims he did it ALL by himself; i.e. if he didn't that is the false statement you're talking about.
Believe me, it isn't fun to take all those pictures, resize them all manually, load them up to brickshelf or flickr and then find out that as a big "THANK YOU" others use your efforts and claim it as there own which, after a while, may give THEM credit by a third party.
I am not as fanatic about receiving credit as I am about the establishment of clear rules concerning this matter! And I'll continue to fight for it, even though it's unpopular with some.

[Captain Becker]

Nice little ship you have made it there. I like the shape and the colour scheme, and it actually looks like SlyOwl´s ship wich he has made (Wich name i cant remember). Good work whit this.

Captain Becker

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Wow! A very nice ship! A love the way the sides look, like actual wood. Nice job on the technique with the lanterns, what a cool way of doing it!  
Wait, huh? A pretty debated argument below me?

Bart, on 07 March 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

just wondering were does it say somebody 'owns' a technique to connect Lego pieces? Because he or she is the first one to make a picture of it doesn't have to mean he or she is the inventor of it.
or do we also have to credit the person who thought of using string instead of the Lego pieces.

I just realise I may sound a bit negative here, that is not the aim, just honestly questioning the credit request.

Bart

I kind of agree.

cb4, on 08 March 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

The sides of pif500's ship have no curve where the log bricks are used - I don't think you can claim that he used maydayartist's technique at all without seeing the inside of the ship. I don't think anyone should be able to demand credit for something as simple as using a particular kind of brick in a fairly trivial way.

While it's nice to receive credit for one's innovations, it seems a bit over the top to assume that nobody could ever come up with the same idea independently. If you think that someone has used your work as a reference, you can always send them a private message ask them where they got it from and to explain that it is polite to give credit if they used your model.

In some ways this whole discussion seems pretty dangerous to me. If I come up with a technique that solves a particular problem in an optimal way, and I post it here, am I to be able to demand credit every time it is used thereafter in perpetuity? What if there is no better way to do it, or if the other ways of doing it aren't as elegant or have more problems? What if someone comes up with an new way of using my technique that is in itself novel? Who gets the credit then? The whole point of coming here for me is to share ideas, not hold them hostage. If someone uses one of my techniques and doesn't choose to credit me, it's disappointing but I don't really have a problem with that. I would have a problem if they claimed to have invented it themselves, because that would be a false statement (unless of course they came up with it independently, which is more-or-less plausible depending on the complexity). I want to build awesome MOCs, but more than that I want others to build awesome MOCs, so I develop techniques in the hope that others will use them and further develop them.

Yes, I pretty much agree.

Perfectionist, on 08 March 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

Why do you have a problem with adding one, just one (!) tiny little sentence? When there really isn't a better way to do it, then the technique certainly deserves credit. Otherwise there's just no motivation to share detailed pics of your MOCs, which wouldn't be good for the community; but it does happen a lot already!
Why should anybody want to share a certain way of putting bricks together, on which he has worked for hours if not days and all he gets is that others use it and claim it as their own technique, because that is what essentially happens when no credit is given. No credit means that the builder claims he did it ALL by himself; i.e. if he didn't that is the false statement you're talking about.
Believe me, it isn't fun to take all those pictures, resize them all manually, load them up to brickshelf or flickr and then find out that as a big "THANK YOU" others use your efforts and claim it as there own which, after a while, may give THEM credit by a third party.
I am not as fanatic about receiving credit as I am about the establishment of clear rules concerning this matter! And I'll continue to fight for it, even though it's unpopular with some.

I also agree, I see both side's argument. "You don't own LEGO techniques" vs. "Give creators credit"

Now where does it say you have to give credit to some one with a way of building? You may have thought of it and took pictures first, but some may have never heard of it and think it's their own. I didn't know of maydayartist's technique and I have a similar way of making a "wooden plank" effect. But I also see if you made an ingenious way of making lanterns (come on guys, let's be mature "he stole my lantern building process!"    ) you want your earned fame and credit. So please, privately PM the creator. If you are afraid of some cyber punk taking your idea, don't go on the internet at all, saves you on the electricity bill. BUT, if you do post, don't start a fiery debate and spam up a LEGO builder's thread because all that makes you look like is that YOU are cyber punk with a bad temper.


Message: Post LEGO ships and techniques on the internet at your own risk!  

[lt.Gonville brickhead]

Whatever happened to the saying Imitation is the biggest type of flattery

Point 1:But what if someone wants to make a ship,Use a certain technique and can't remember where they saw it.
Then someone else's thread will be filled with people arguing about credit like this one.

Highly unlikely Point 2:If you credit something someone will see it use it give credit to the person who actually made it,it will keep reoccuring so that lesser experienced members may use it instead of designing there own which means a lack of techniques for people to copy new ideas.

[Perfectionist]

Ok, I'll just ask for a discussion on this matter in the "General Discussion" forum, since without any rule or policy concerning this matter on EB it's pretty useless spamming this thread with it. Besides there are far worse cases than this one; and pif500 has used other's techniques in his MOCs before without anybody complaining.

[Admiral of the Red]

Fantastic color scheme; planks on the side look very realistic!
Also, the sails look very cute, almost cartoonish