TLGs Quality Decrease

[BrickArtist]

Hello ambassadors! Today I wanted to present the question as to weather or not we will see lego quality decrease in the (Near?)future. It's no secret that quality has seen some recent setbacks of late(The S2 collectible minifig swimmers chest was practically green), mainly in rubber pieces(Shaak-Tis Headdress.), and collectible minifigs.So I'm just wondering, will Tlg try to increase the quality of their products to their usual standard? Thanks!

[JopieK]

Hello ambassadors! Today I wanted to present the question as to weather or not we will see lego quality decrease in the (Near?)future. It's no secret that quality has seen some recent setbacks of late(The S2 collectible minifig swimmers chest was practically green), mainly in rubber pieces(Shaak-Tis Headdress.), and collectible minifigs.So I'm just wondering, will Tlg try to increase the quality of their products to their usual standard? Thanks!

weather has something to do with rain, snow and sunshine ;) but when you look at the National Geographics documentary it still looks promising, although I also think quality is decreasing at the moment. Quality is an important issue for letting LEGO stand out agains MB and all that other clone brands I think. Not too long ago I had the 'privilege' to touch some sluban and I was shocked to see the very poor quality. It is cheap, but also very bad plastics.

[Aanchir]

Hello ambassadors! Today I wanted to present the question as to weather or not we will see lego quality decrease in the (Near?)future. It's no secret that quality has seen some recent setbacks of late(The S2 collectible minifig swimmers chest was practically green), mainly in rubber pieces(Shaak-Tis Headdress.), and collectible minifigs.So I'm just wondering, will Tlg try to increase the quality of their products to their usual standard? Thanks!

To be fair, my surfer's torso was pretty good quality-wise. Unless, of course, you're talking about the printing on the lifeguard-- that did have some issues, which is a bit of a surprise since printing tends to be one of the collectible minifigures' strong suits.

The way I see it, we've been seeing quality issues since at least 2004 (which I believe may have been around when LEGO switched from using pre-colored plastic granulate to adding dye during the production process). I always point out this set as an example-- despite being mostly basic parts, the plates and some other parts in the set could generally be separated into two categories per color depending on quality. In the meantime, LEGO quality has had periodic ups and downs-- for instance, the BIONICLE socket-joint issues in 2006 and 2007, the first of the Chinese-made magnet packs in 2008 or 2009, and the collectible minifigure problems just last year (with a few instances of quality problems carrying over into this year's Series 3 and 4).

In general, I'm not one to treat LEGO as a product with static input or output. Buyer demands change and LEGO products change as time progresses. However, in this case I don't see any sort of trend quality-wise. Instead, we see a fairly consistent process by which a quality issue emerges and LEGO puts forth efforts to eliminate it (in the case of the BIONICLE socket joints, the efforts were very visible as new versions of the classic "y-joint" were introduced, and it seems that with this year's new Hero Factory joint style LEGO finally got it right). I don't think there's any reason to believe LEGO is ignoring the quality issues we've seen emerge lately.

[fred67]

I don't think they're "ignoring" quality issues, but they will continue to experiment to get the best value for their money. TLG has a fairly high profit margin these days, and that's OK as long as we're paying premium prices for premium quality.

That being the case, even the sporadic appearance of quality problems is annoying when you're paying premium prices. If I buy a luxury car and it keeps stalling, I'm not going to be happy, even if you insist my car is an anomaly.

[Whittleberry]

(The S2 collectible minifig swimmers chest was practically green), mainly in rubber pieces(Shaak-Tis Headdress.), and collectible minifigs.

Well all the issues you're talking about here are Chinese made parts, so the question is, will LEGO pull out of China? The benefit of making the collectible figs and special fig headdresses in China is that for a short production run it's cheaper, plus in China they seem to have more specialised machines that make very detailed printed headdress pieces like the atlantis shark head or shaak tis one. From what i see, most fans like the specialised parts and collectible figs on the whole, even though a lot of us are critical of the quality/longevity of the parts. So with most consumers unable to see a problem I'm not sure LEGO will be shifting production of those parts from China anytime soon, even though I wish they would.

[Aanchir]

Well all the issues you're talking about here are Chinese made parts, so the question is, will LEGO pull out of China? The benefit of making the collectible figs and special fig headdresses in China is that for a short production run it's cheaper, plus in China they seem to have more specialised machines that make very detailed printed headdress pieces like the atlantis shark head or shaak tis one. From what i see, most fans like the specialised parts and collectible figs on the whole, even though a lot of us are critical of the quality/longevity of the parts. So with most consumers unable to see a problem I'm not sure LEGO will be shifting production of those parts from China anytime soon, even though I wish they would.

The thing is that it's not the location of production that's the problem. Realistically, LEGO should have no more difficulty running a facility in China than in Mexico or Eastern Europe. This is why I expect LEGO to work on fixing problems that currently affect Chinese production rather than giving up on that venture entirely. As you acknowledge, it's already paid off in a lot of ways.

It should also be noted that with rubber parts and other "special" parts produced only in China, the fact that the production processes are newer is probably a the reason for quality issues rather than the fact that a Chinese facility just can't do things correctly.

It bothers me when people chalk up the low quality of Chinese-made products to their being made in China, not considering the fact that companies overseas are often still responsible for the quality of their own products. True, labor costs are lower in China because workers are often underpaid. But that's no reason to assume that Chinese laborers are any less careful or diligent than laborers anywhere else in the world.

Also, you mention longevity. Have there been any issues with Chinese-made parts breaking or being otherwise damaged? I haven't heard any such reports, even though I'm familiar with similar issues with non-Chinese parts (such as socket joints from BIONICLE and other themes).

[fred67]

I hear people complaining about Chinese parts breaking more easily, but it's always possible that that's simply a matter of perception (like people ignoring it when it's a non-Chinese part because, hey, it's just plastic after all... but when it's Chinese part they say "damn cheap Chinese plastic!").

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think the print or quality has ever really bothered me except that I do notice the hands don't seem to move as freely as they do in other minifigures. That could certainly lead to stress and make the parts easier to break, but since I generally just pose them in MOCs and don't "play," it hasn't been an issue for me.

I was also under the impression that Chinese law requires some minimum amount of raw materials be produced in China; I thought I recalled reading that the plastic was made there (even if supposedly to TLG specifications).

[Aanchir]

I was also under the impression that Chinese law requires some minimum amount of raw materials be produced in China; I thought I recalled reading that the plastic was made there (even if supposedly to TLG specifications).

That would be what I heard too. It's an interesting problem, and I'm curious if anything can be done about it, since unlike quality control the source of the plastic granulate is something out of LEGO's direct control. And I'm not sure what Chinese source the plastic's coming from, or whether there's any alternative LEGO can take their business to (or threaten to if their current Chinese supplier doesn't improve their plastic quality). I think at this stage dropping the Chinese plant completely would be a mistake unless LEGO could afford to increase production elsewhere to compensate.

[Jargo]

Bringing Chinese know how to europe should be a TLG goal. I say they should just import the entire chinese factory, workers and all. Assimilate it into the Billund factory complex. Look after the QC instead of investing in rubbish like Lego Universe.

[Aanchir]

Bringing Chinese know how to europe should be a TLG goal. I say they should just import the entire chinese factory, workers and all. Assimilate it into the Billund factory complex. Look after the QC instead of investing in rubbish like Lego Universe.

First of all, LEGO Universe isn't even running on the same budget as production. Even if LEGO is putting a lot of marketing money into LEGO Universe, I'm pretty sure it's all coming from the "extended line" budget, and regular products still come first. Even if you don't like a certain thing LEGO is doing, it's silly to start blaming that thing for entirely unrelated problems.

Extended-line stuff may not fit LEGO's core values as effectively as the regular sets, but one thing it does is keep LEGO "mainstream". If LEGO were just another toy on the shelves, adults might not have any idea that it had any importance. And people who don't own any sets of their own certainly wouldn't know that LEGO is superior to other building-toy brands. However, with games like LEGO Star Wars and LEGO Universe, the LEGO brand maintains its status as a household name. Furthermore, we AFOLs can be recognized as investors in a quality company rather than just kids who never learned to grow up. Even if LEGO video games tend to be marketed towards kids, their quality makes them stand out even to other gamers-- there's a reason that LEGO Star Wars got such phenomenal ratings when it was first released.

Also, if LEGO were to try moving the Chinese production processes into the plants they already own, I'd expect them to move things into the Czech plant rather than the Billund one (since the Czech plant in Kladno is currently being expanded, they may be trying to do just that).

[Blondie-Wan]

Bringing Chinese know how to europe should be a TLG goal. I say they should just import the entire chinese factory, workers and all. Assimilate it into the Billund factory complex. Look after the QC instead of investing in rubbish like Lego Universe.

Since when is the much-acclaimed LEGO Universe rubbish? It's true it's not doing as well as TLG had hoped, but I don't think that's because of any inherent problem with the game. Have you even played it? And as Aanchir points out, its existence doesn't really affect QC one way or another.

As far as importing a whole factory goes... they might be able to shift production from one country to another (which I think would be the ideal solution if there really is an issue with the raw materials they have access to in China), but actually transplanting the factory? Workers and all? I don't think there's any way such an action could be feasible.

[Jargo]

Hmmm, my post was tongue in cheek.

Never mind.

[Blondie-Wan]

Well... oops, then. It's hard to tell online sometimes.

I think I'd have gotten your jest about the factory, had it not been coupled with the LU rubbish comment - my perception has been that some here do unfortunately view the game that way, so it sounded like an actual comment to me.

[CopMike]

A lot of good answers has already been written, I´d like to add some info from Bjarke Schonwandt at TLG:

All parts for the minifigure series are made in China at Broadway and they are also packaged at Broadway

Regarding the perceived quality and specially that the parts seams translucence.

I will share the information with our Q-team in China and ask them to set up an process to verify that the parts are solid in the color. But All of you can help me by posting what figures that you expedience it with in order for me to conduct a more crisp communication to China.

And at the end I just need to inform you that we have not moved the above minifigures to China in order to save cost. The main driver for the decision is capacity. We currently do not hold the capacity in Billund to mould, assemble and decorate the number of minifigures needed currently. We are in the process of expanding capabilities but as the sals keep increasing we have a hard time to keep up with demand.

[venios]

I agree that the Quality is decreasing, as the cannon bases keep falling apart and the lego minifigre collection figures arn't to the normal lego high standerds, we would expect from them.

Edited March 31, 2011 by venios

[Grrr]

And at the end I just need to inform you that we have not moved the above minifigures to China in order to save cost. The main driver for the decision is capacity. We currently do not hold the capacity in Billund to mould, assemble and decorate the number of minifigures needed currently. We are in the process of expanding capabilities but as the sals keep increasing we have a hard time to keep up with demand.

It never occured to me but this makes perfect sense - minifigs are amoungst the most complex pieces in terms of the priting and pre-assembly, and since these collectible figs, I'd say I'm getting 3-4x as many figs a year as I used to.

[Ape Fight]

Things made in China can be as good as those anywhere else - it's just a factory location after all. Any new factory will likely start out with a higher tolerance of errors, and they'll decrease this over time.

BUT...

I have noticed one significant area of quality dropping that has meant my WIP model isn't as good as it could be. I have no idea where the parts I've ordered were made but most were red. The problem is they are different types of red - pinky red, browny red and red red. None of my old pieces ever had any colour variation except through aging (e.g white to beige, blue to greeny-blue). Red was always red.

I bought a half price Ferrari F1 car for parts, as well as using PAB, and that model had colour variation almost on the same piece! - Some of the hinges had a different colour left piece to that on the right.

In most lights it's not very noticeable, but in some conditions the colour variation is really obvious. When PAB parts are soooo expensive I at least expect the bag of red parts to be red. Almost thought about sending them back.... I may send them a photo (if the variation comes out) to show what I mean.

However, despite the above LEGO have made good progress elsewhere. PF motors for example are much much cheaper than the old ones, but way more powerful. Good progress there TLG : )

[fred67]

In most lights it's not very noticeable, but in some conditions the colour variation is really obvious.

Sometimes I look at things I made, feel a touch of pride, then take a photo... and the photo looks terrible where all the seemingly same-color bricks are a rainbow of variations.

[Aanchir]

Things made in China can be as good as those anywhere else - it's just a factory location after all. Any new factory will likely start out with a higher tolerance of errors, and they'll decrease this over time.

BUT...

I have noticed one significant area of quality dropping that has meant my WIP model isn't as good as it could be. I have no idea where the parts I've ordered were made but most were red. The problem is they are different types of red - pinky red, browny red and red red. None of my old pieces ever had any colour variation except through aging (e.g white to beige, blue to greeny-blue). Red was always red.

I bought a half price Ferrari F1 car for parts, as well as using PAB, and that model had colour variation almost on the same piece! - Some of the hinges had a different colour left piece to that on the right.

In most lights it's not very noticeable, but in some conditions the colour variation is really obvious. When PAB parts are soooo expensive I at least expect the bag of red parts to be red. Almost thought about sending them back.... I may send them a photo (if the variation comes out) to show what I mean.

However, despite the above LEGO have made good progress elsewhere. PF motors for example are much much cheaper than the old ones, but way more powerful. Good progress there TLG : )

The left-right hinges are one of the places where the color variation in that Brickmaster set I'm always linking to were the most egregious. I don't know whether the location those parts are produced has any impact on their quality, but it sure is bothersome.

I take it you ordered the parts on Bricklink. One of the problems people have expressed about Bricklink is that you can't tell which of the parts are Chinese-made, but I think that's just an aspect of a larger problem that you can't exactly judge the quality of any pieces unless really good photos are taken. I guess that's just an inherent risk to online transactions, though-- it's not like photos would make it that much more obvious (or that sellers would want quality discrepancies to show up anyway).

It'd be cool at least if Bricklink sellers would list what sets the pieces came from when selling individual pieces, but not everyone keeps track of that so it wouldn't be a very reliable way of ensuring consistent quality.

[Lalror]

My only complaint is that softer plastic that they use in some of the collectible minifig accessories, clone blasters, etc. It gets scratched really easily and even after sticking in a minifig's hand and pulling it out eventually wears it down to uselessness. I just want that nice, hard, strong, plastic that Lego is famous for back.

~Lalror

[vexorian]

There seems to be a variance in quality. For example, with CM figs, it seems that most are 'all right but not TLG quality' while there is always a chance one of them will be a little wrong.

I don't really care if something is made in China, Yugoslavia or Antarctica. There still needs to be the sort of great QA that we are used to. Specially because the current and new prices don't reflect the reduction in quality assurance costs.

--

Recent example, I bought a mini trains Creator set the other day and one of the 2x4 white plates had almost invisible logos in its studs and the white was of a more glossy kind, it basically looked like a clone brick. Oddly, the other two ones were fine.

I also bought an Atlantis shark, and the big black wing-like piece and also the shark's head had some white stain thing, or was it bended? I have no idea, the thing is that they have something that looks lighter than the black it is supposed to be, the thing is that I bought the shark to have those precise pieces in "shiny new" quality whereas I got something closer to the quality I already got in "used" quality.

My only complaint is that softer plastic that they use in some of the collectible minifig accessories, clone blasters, etc. It gets scratched really easily and even after sticking in a minifig's hand and pulling it out eventually wears it down to uselessness. I just want that nice, hard, strong, plastic that Lego is famous for back.

~Lalror

This is probably an issue of 'safety' for children. They have been using softer plastic on things that children may use to hit others. Edited April 4, 2011 by vexorian

[CP5670]

I don't think they're "ignoring" quality issues, but they will continue to experiment to get the best value for their money. TLG has a fairly high profit margin these days, and that's OK as long as we're paying premium prices for premium quality.

Yes, this is the main point. If there is some issue and enough people complain it or alter their buying habits, TLG will probably fix it, and otherwise they may fix or ignore it depending on what it costs them to fix it. They won't just unconditionally fix all quality problems that are brought to their attention.

I take it you ordered the parts on Bricklink. One of the problems people have expressed about Bricklink is that you can't tell which of the parts are Chinese-made, but I think that's just an aspect of a larger problem that you can't exactly judge the quality of any pieces unless really good photos are taken. I guess that's just an inherent risk to online transactions, though-- it's not like photos would make it that much more obvious (or that sellers would want quality discrepancies to show up anyway).

This has been a problem for years now. You need to make educated guesses about where the seller's parts came from based on what he has for sale in his overall inventory. For generic bricks and plates, a seller's batch of one piece may have come from many different sets, although you can still get some idea of which years they're from.

The Chinese-made parts are actually easier to distinguish since they are mostly unique, especially the ones from the collectible minifigs. It's the regular parts that create more of a issue.

[CopMike]

I have noticed one significant area of quality dropping that has meant my WIP model isn't as good as it could be. I have no idea where the parts I've ordered were made but most were red. The problem is they are different types of red - pinky red, browny red and red red. None of my old pieces ever had any colour variation except through aging (e.g white to beige, blue to greeny-blue). Red was always red.

I bought a half price Ferrari F1 car for parts, as well as using PAB, and that model had colour variation almost on the same piece! - Some of the hinges had a different colour left piece to that on the right.

In most lights it's not very noticeable, but in some conditions the colour variation is really obvious. When PAB parts are soooo expensive I at least expect the bag of red parts to be red. Almost thought about sending them back.... I may send them a photo (if the variation comes out) to show what I mean.

However, despite the above LEGO have made good progress elsewhere. PF motors for example are much much cheaper than the old ones, but way more powerful. Good progress there TLG : )

This has been, and probably will be a problem in the future. It has been explained many times but here´s a short version one more time:

* Before TLG bought the plastic granual from the same place. Then they went out shopping it from different sources to get a price competion between companies and the secure delivery having more sources than one. TLG gives the manufacturers the specifics on what they want (color, tempeture to melt etc etc), but every manufacturers can add other chemicals as long as the product is othervise right. This makes the actual plastic different from different suppliers which leads to different results colorvise.

* Different parts are produced at different occasions. Parts can be stored for years before they´re pulled from the wharehouse for duty, a.k.a put into a set. Plastic parts ages there also, not only in the Afol´s collections. This results in different colors. Back in the day when the parts were standard, meaning for example square bricks like 2x4, 2x2 etc, the turnover time would have been shorter.

* Same batch of plastic produced at the same time but in different parts can look diffrent. The thickness of the material in a brick and a plate are diffrent and so on, resulting in a colorvariation to the eye - but the color itself are the same.

* As above but in different time of the the day, week, month gives a different humidity inside the factory which could give different color results - it´s a chemical process after all.

* As the mold get used the first bricks out compared to the last ones will look different because the molds finish changes and that results in a slightly different finish that gives different reflexions of light = the color looks different.

These are only a few explainations but you get the picture. To produce colors that in each part matches would be very very very expansive!

My only complaint is that softer plastic that they use in some of the collectible minifig accessories, clone blasters, etc. It gets scratched really easily and even after sticking in a minifig's hand and pulling it out eventually wears it down to uselessness. I just want that nice, hard, strong, plastic that Lego is famous for back.

~Lalror

As mentioned above by vexorian this is a thing about child safety.

Recent example, I bought a mini trains Creator set the other day and one of the 2x4 white plates had almost invisible logos in its studs and the white was of a more glossy kind, it basically looked like a clone brick. Oddly, the other two ones were fine.

I also bought an Atlantis shark, and the big black wing-like piece and also the shark's head had some white stain thing, or was it bended? I have no idea, the thing is that they have something that looks lighter than the black it is supposed to be, the thing is that I bought the shark to have those precise pieces in "shiny new" quality whereas I got something closer to the quality I already got in "used" quality.

Could you please give me the information printed inside the plate - it should say 3020 (the part#) and then some more numbers, telling from which mold it came from. Was it the 4837?

The shark head comes from China in a plastic bag if I´m not mistaken, could be that difference like we discussed in this thread.

[vexorian]

Sorry, I don't describe things accurately, it was 8058:

By shark head I meant the large slope that becomes a head after teeth and the sticker are put.

Regarding the train, yes, it was that set.

All of the plates say 3020, but the 'bad' one uses a smaller font for the 3020.

One of the good 2x4 plates says 4-69 in the right border, the other says 7-69.

The 'bad' one says 13-62, but that number is at the top border instead of the right border.

All the plates say © LEGO group. But the good ones have a wide separation between LEGO and group. Would be easier if I had a camera.

[CopMike]

All of the plates say 3020, but the 'bad' one uses a smaller font for the 3020.

One of the good 2x4 plates says 4-69 in the right border, the other says 7-69.

The 'bad' one says 13-62, but that number is at the top border instead of the right border.

All the plates say © LEGO group. But the good ones have a wide separation between LEGO and group. Would be easier if I had a camera.

Information sent to TLG - thanks !