Whatever happened to the LEGO Legends line?

[Piranha]

I couldn't find the official topic for this but whatever happened to the LEGO Legends line? I liked it, a second chance to great past sets like BSB, Century Skyway and the Black Falcons Fortress etc.

How many of you wouldn't love a chance to buy a Sante Fe Super Chief or a Train Engine Shed or the Airport Shuttle again?

I petition that TLG should bring this line back with 1 (or more) Legend release each year.

Signed

[Siegfried]

I'm surprised you're asking this; isn't this a n00b question? ...anyway, from what I've heard the line was expensive and unprofitable.

[Aanchir]

Also, keep in mind that the last of the LEGO Legends line, 10176 King's Castle, was supposed to recreate 6090 Royal Knights' Castle. It failed oh-so-badly. Being forced to use then-current parts and colors crippled the design, replacing the tasteful asymmetry of the original with a more boring and blocky symmetrical design, the ghost looked terrible using the then-current 294 Phosphorescent Green rather than the discontinued 50 Phosphorescent White, and in general the design was changed dramatically. I think this set could be seen as a last-ditch effort to make the LEGO Legends line profitable, and if anything it demonstrated that the sets could not be made more current without removing what made them appealing. I'd much rather if LEGO continued making new set designs that can properly take advantage of developments in set design, rather than trying hopelessly to compromise the old designs with modern building techniques and design standards and thus creating design monstrosities that are visually inferior to both modern and classic sets.

[Piranha]

I'm surprised you're asking this; isn't this a n00b question? ...anyway, from what I've heard the line was expensive and unprofitable.

Well you know what they say, takes one to know one

Also, keep in mind that the last of the LEGO Legends line, 10176 King's Castle, was supposed to recreate 6090 Royal Knights' Castle. It failed oh-so-badly. Being forced to use then-current parts and colors crippled the design, replacing the tasteful asymmetry of the original with a more boring and blocky symmetrical design, the ghost looked terrible using the then-current 294 Phosphorescent Green rather than the discontinued 50 Phosphorescent White, and in general the design was changed dramatically. I think this set could be seen as a last-ditch effort to make the LEGO Legends line profitable, and if anything it demonstrated that the sets could not be made more current without removing what made them appealing. I'd much rather if LEGO continued making new set designs that can properly take advantage of developments in set design, rather than trying hopelessly to compromise the old designs with modern building techniques and design standards and thus creating design monstrosities that are visually inferior to both modern and classic sets.

Thanks for this very informative reply I didn't know this before. I know understand why they discontinued them. And have changed my viewpoint to use those opportunities for new sets.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Macoco

[CP5670]

The Legends were initially in high demand but pretty much died with the gray color change, which made them unappealing to their target market. The 2004 Legend sets sold poorly (I remember 10159 was shown at something like 30% off in a 2006 catalog) and even today, they go for noticeably lower prices than the earlier sets.

The Legends also came out at a time when most of the regular Lego lines sucked, and those have improved dramatically since then, so there isn't much need for the Legends today.

Also, keep in mind that the last of the LEGO Legends line, 10176 King's Castle, was supposed to recreate 6090 Royal Knights' Castle. It failed oh-so-badly.

I don't think that one was a Legends set. It was "inspired" by the old one but made no attempt to actually reproduce it. A better example is the 10159 airport, which had a number of small changes from the old 6597. That was in contrast to the 10001/10002 Metroliner, which was very faithful to the original 4558 and brought back a lot of previously discontinued parts just for this set.

[Legoist]

I was not aware that Legends had been a line of its own, I thought it was just an occasional re-issue of an older set, but it does seem they were all released within a few years.

This is a list of Legends from peeron: http://www.peeron.co...me/LEGO/Legends

IMHO it makes no sense to re-release a set of the past if the parts and colours are not exactly the same as the originals. If it's not possible to do so, they should just avoid totally.

Also those Legends were re-released after ~10 years of the original release, up to ~25 years. These are good time lapses IMO.

The key challenge is clearly which sets to pick. Looking at the list above I believe the Metroliner was a no-brainer, but some of the others?

To re-ignite the Legends line they would need IMHO to pick sets which are old enough, large size, and then make the effort of producing the parts exactly as they were including the discontinued colours. I believe that it is still possible for TLG to make a run of parts in the old greys for instance, it's clearly going to be more expensive due to the much smaller amount to produce for a Legend re-issue (still, not so expensive as re-creating an old mould tho), but then they could charge a premium price for that and it would make sense. For example if they re-issued sets like the yellow Castle, the Galaxy Explorer and the 12V Intercity Train* (3 real legends of the 80s...) I am sure that there are many AFOLs who would pay premium price for them, considering that buying a MISB of these on the secondary market costs an insane price! If re-issued with old grey parts to be exactly identical to the originals, there are lots of people out there who would pay twice or three times as much per piece to get these sets (note that generally 20+ year old sets don't have that many pieces...), it will still be convenient.

But if re-issued with the new grey, most people wouldn't bother because it's not the same and at that point, you can probably just build it yourself buying all the parts for a much smaller price! what makes it difficult to do so normally is that parts in the original colours have never been made again (see the infamous problem with the blue windows of Diesel Shunter). Doing so just to keep the cost down, even if worth -30% which I hardly believe would be the case, it would turn the Legends re-issue into a non-premium product.

*eventually, old trains are impossible to re-issue due to different power systems (and also, "wrong" power system would put many customers off), but I think it will be a good idea in that case to release them without motor at a lower cost, and then let the customer add its preferred motors

Edited May 11, 2011 by Legoist

[Aanchir]

To re-ignite the Legends line they would need IMHO to pick sets which are old enough, large size, and then make the effort of producing the parts exactly as they were including the discontinued colours. I believe that it is still possible for TLG to make a run of parts in the old greys for instance, it's clearly going to be more expensive due to the much smaller amount to produce for a Legend re-issue (still, not so expensive as re-creating an old mould tho), but then they could charge a premium price for that and it would make sense. For example if they re-issued sets like the yellow Castle, the Galaxy Explorer and the 12V Intercity Train* (3 real legends of the 80s...) I am sure that there are many AFOLs who would pay premium price for them, considering that buying a MISB of these on the secondary market costs an insane price! If re-issued with old grey parts to be exactly identical to the originals, there are lots of people out there who would pay twice or three times as much per piece to get these sets (note that generally 20+ year old sets don't have that many pieces...), it will still be convenient.

But if re-issued with the new grey, most people wouldn't bother because it's not the same and at that point, you can probably just build it yourself buying all the parts for a much smaller price! what makes it difficult to do so normally is that parts in the original colours have never been made again (see the infamous problem with the blue windows of Diesel Shunter). Doing so just to keep the cost down, even if worth -30% which I hardly believe would be the case, it would turn the Legends re-issue into a non-premium product.

I don't think small updates like changing the greys and brown to the modern versions would detract too much from the sets' appeal. The things that are more likely to cause problems in releasing LEGO Legends today are discontinued parts, like the old hinges. Sure, you might be able to make an old set look just as good with newer types of hinges, but it'd lose its authenticity.

[roamingstop]

Actually a reissue of Santa Fe (as mentioned in first post) would work pretty well - I have some Bley versions and they look good. A modification to use the same opening technique as Emerald Night would make a new 'classic' style set, and the size of the locomotive means it is easily PF compatible - even down to the lights. So like Metroliner, it is a 'no brainer'. But... does it making commercial sense? Would it not be better to build an equivalent legend series in a siilar vein? Like a modern Amtrak train (as an example).

In reality as mentioned many colours have changed, and building techniques improved, so that it would make more sense to do a 'modern version' of the old classic. But that is obviously what happened to Kings Castle and did not fair well. So it is better to put resources into making a new classic models - im thinking some of the Modular Houses, or similar (insert your favorite model line here _____,_____,____)

Perhaps an interesting - low cost solution would be to have some specific expansion packs, with online instructions, for inspiring creation of classic models. Hey wait... that is what the AFOL community provide

[Piranha]

Actually a reissue of Santa Fe (as mentioned in first post) would work pretty well - I have some Bley versions and they look good.

You wouldn't happen to have some pics of this would you? I thought about doing this but I ran into one problem. I found most of the parts in the newer greys except that one. I could simply replace the porthole with an all bley panel though. Also making it PF would require the use of this in bley. To match the front otherwise it would look odd in black.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Macoco

[wincent]

a legend revisit of the lego monorail system would be in order.

The most observed Lego set at Lego Events nowadays.

The moulds are still there (are they?)

Elevated tracks (Duplo has got them.....) adds so much more to your building lay-outs

[Aanchir]

a legend revisit of the lego monorail system would be in order.

The most observed Lego set at Lego Events nowadays.

The moulds are still there (are they?)

Elevated tracks (Duplo has got them.....) adds so much more to your building lay-outs

Last I heard, the molds are not still there-- I believe they were destroyed in a fire or something. There was a discussion of this back when monorail track appeared in one of the Space Police animations, and people began pondering whether there might be a monorail in that theme. As for elevated tracks, while monorail tracks are not available, there are the 6-wide train tracks from the Temple of Doom set, most recently used in the Alien Mothership from the Alien Conquest theme. Those could possibly have potential for some sort of rail system, if not for monorails or standard trains.

[wincent]

Last I heard, the molds are not still there-- I believe they were destroyed in a fire or something. There was a discussion of this back when monorail track appeared in one of the Space Police animations, and people began pondering whether there might be a monorail in that theme. As for elevated tracks, while monorail tracks are not available, there are the 6-wide train tracks from the Temple of Doom set, most recently used in the Alien Mothership from the Alien Conquest theme. Those could possibly have potential for some sort of rail system, if not for monorails or standard trains.

if the monorail moulds are destroyed (why not make this public? It is probably one of the most asked questions to reintroduce Monorail) then lego should make the 6 wide temple of doom railway system widely available.It still 'sucks' that Duplo has an elevated track system and Lego City not

Do i have to get me a 3d printer to reproduce them myself?

[davee123]

Do i have to get me a 3d printer to reproduce them myself?

Probably. LEGO has been very adamant that monorail is NOT coming back. I think it's conceivable that they might do another elevated-style rail someday, but from what I've heard, you won't be seeing the monorail system from the late 80's and 90's returning.

I hadn't heard the "destroyed by fire" story. That sounds a little suspicious to me, honestly-- they were last used in a set released in 1994, which means they were probably still in production as late as 1996, and I'd kinda think anything on that level would be noted by the fan community at the time since RTL was well established at that point. But certainly they occasionally destroy molds when they're sure they won't bring something back. Reportedly they would use molds in poured concrete foundations of new buildings, although I'm not sure if that's just rumor or not.

DaveE

[wincent]

LEGO has been very adamant that monorail is NOT coming back

DaveE

if anyone high up in the Lego command reads this: A huge misstake,it would sell like crazy....

[snefroe]

about the monorail, i've heard of the fire story too, another guy said these molds were destroyed and cant be restored or duplicated. the producing company was closed... seriously, if Lego wanted a comeback of the original monorail, they could easily get the right people at the table and get it done. obviously, they're not interested in doing that whatever the popularity of these sets.

as far as the "Legends" goes, yes, there's a color issue, yes, there's a "part no longer in production" issue, and i'm pretty sure there's a financial element too.

imo, Legends doesn't have a market. Most Lego fans would prefer the popular and modern modular buildings, don't really care all that much about the old box, old parts, or nostalgia... they just want great parts, great sets, nice colors, great building techniques for a fair price... I would loooove reliving the experience of opening a yellow castle box or opening the plastic trays of the Galaxy explorer. That's the only unique element of the Legends line: you get to relive a little bit of history, unfortunately, that is not a high value in the Lego community, nor is it top priority for the Lego company --> no more Legends...

[fyrmedhatt]

imo, Legends doesn't have a market. Most Lego fans would prefer the popular and modern modular buildings, don't really care all that much about the old box, old parts, or nostalgia... they just want great parts, great sets, nice colors, great building techniques for a fair price... I would loooove reliving the experience of opening a yellow castle box or opening the plastic trays of the Galaxy explorer. That's the only unique element of the Legends line: you get to relive a little bit of history, unfortunately, that is not a high value in the Lego community, nor is it top priority for the Lego company --> no more Legends...

I do not agree with you that a Legends line does not have a market, as there are plenty of AFOLs out there who are very sentimental about their hobby and would love nothing more than to open the sets from our childhoods that we could never afford, or even the ones released before we were into lego (as a child of the early nineties I looked longingly at the cool sets that older neighbors had, as well as what I saw in old Lego catalogs). I mean, collectors pay hundreds of dollars for older pirate ships, castles and town sets on bricklink, and many of them do it to relive their childhood.

Whether the market is profitable for Lego is another question, The AFOL community appears to be larger than it was at the time of the Legends line, so they could probably have more sales, but then again the sets are better now. Also the molds are ten years older than they were then, and many will probably require significant work in order to be restored, and of course the color change throws things off significantly. That the line was ok for Lego 10 years ago I have no doubts about, they released the sets for about four years, but that was a Lego in crisis, grasping at straws, the profitability would probably not be satisfactory today.

Another thing is whether people would accept old sets to take the place of the gloriously well designed AFOL-oriented sets we see on the market today, as the total amount of such sets would probably remain the same.

The one way I see the Legends line reincarnated is through the release of sets made in the ten last years, and then especially the AFOL-oriented ones. Who wouldn't want to see a re-release of the UCS Star Wars sets, the Cafe Corner, Market Street or the Santa Fe train sets. Doing so would probably require much less investment from Lego with regards to remanufacturing of molds as the sets are young so most parts are still in production. These sets have also reached very high prices on the second hand market, so TLC could be pretty confident there is a high demand for the sets, so they would sell well.

The one problem with such rereleases are the collectors, as the bottom would fall out of the collectors market, probably resulting mass outrage from them. Lego has done so before for the 10152-10155 Maersk ship, so they could do it again. As for the Grey-Bley problem, it is not like Lego hasn't released sets in both colors before, the 10030 Imperial Star Destroyer was released in both types of grey, without it really doing much to the demand for the set, a new copy will set you back at least $1000 today.

[Fugazi]

I think the Legends line was a great concept that lost a lot in translation. As far as I can tell the boxes were nothing like the originals, the obsolete parts were replaced by newer versions or simply eliminated, the colours were converted to their modern versions, the instructions reformatted... I fully understand that for TLG it was the only reasonable thing they could do, recreating closer versions of the original sets would have been prohibitively expensive. But it may be part of the reason why the line didn't do so well with AFOL who were acutely aware of the differences between the originals and the copies.

[CP5670]

The original 2000-2002 Legends were excellent and did sell pretty well, as I said earlier. However, TLG clearly put more effort into those than the later sets and made them as close to the originals as possible. The later ones had a lot more differences.

[Scorpion]

To be honest, there are few models that were made with the finger hinges that can't be made nowadays with snap hinges or click hinges... Sure, there will be differences in colours and in some specific parts, but I wouldn't mind if the model was 95% the same... And it's hard to see it wouldn't be profitable. I mean, Mega-Core Magnetizer re-release? It would sell like hotcakes! And someone said the models could be chosen by an online vote, I support that notion! However best-selling legends would be, there are 40+ years of lego backlog and you could only release a few sets per year...

[Aanchir]

To be honest, there are few models that were made with the finger hinges that can't be made nowadays with snap hinges or click hinges... Sure, there will be differences in colours and in some specific parts, but I wouldn't mind if the model was 95% the same... And it's hard to see it wouldn't be profitable. I mean, Mega-Core Magnetizer re-release? It would sell like hotcakes! And someone said the models could be chosen by an online vote, I support that notion! However best-selling legends would be, there are 40+ years of lego backlog and you could only release a few sets per year...

How do we know that a Mega-Core Magnetizer re-release would sell like hotcakes? It's a set I only knew from posters and so forth, since it was before I was into LEGO. AFOLs are a tiny, tiny segment of LEGO consumers, and while they are significant they might not be enough to justify the cost of all the elements that would need to be brought back into production for such a set.

And elements that would need to be brought back into production don't just include those like old-style hinges that are decidedly obsolete. Many of the parts in the Mega Core Magnetizer haven't been produced in the correct colors, with the correct decorations, or in some cases at all for over a decade! TLG has changed their production significantly in the past decade, so some parts might need to be completely redesigned just to be produced. Molds for certain parts may have even been destroyed in the intervening time since the set's original release. Meanwhile, any changes, however minor, will be seen as flaws by some people-- the more things you change, the more people will decide not to buy the set.

And what about kids buying the sets? Sure, some kids might be interested in certain old sets. But frankly, a lot of market research is put into the design of today's sets. This research is intended to help TLG custom-tailor sets to what kids will be interested in. A Legends set can't have that. It will have been designed for an entirely different generation of kids than will be able to buy the re-released version.

Furthermore, the set will no longer be new or revolutionary. This set, when it was originally released, contained something kids couldn't get from any other manufacturer, or from any other LEGO set. Today, besides a "retro" design, there is no redeeming value in this set that isn't present in any sets currently available. Even sets from the past two decades can be extremely dated. Nobody would be fool enough to release the original LEGO Mindstorms Robotics Invention System, with its original software, to today's kids. It's old, it's dated, and a loyal re-release would reflect the original product's flaws as well as its assets.

LEGO isn't the only company that's focused on moving forward. A lot of people like classic cars, but car companies focus on creating new cars with new designs. With LEGO, it's really just a matter of whether the demand for the original products makes up for the cost of producing them again. The fact that TLG hasn't produced any LEGO Legends sets since 2006 suggests that it doesn't.

And one last nail in the coffin for a lot of sets LEGO might consider re-releasing: the people who loved a set the most when it was new are often the same people who still own that set. A new one, even if it were an exact replica, would be a shallow substitute for the sentimental value of the original.