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[KEY TOPIC] LDD 3 bugs and brick errors


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#251 Superkalle

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 04:46 PM

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This have been reported before, but thanks for pointing out!

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Haven't seen this before, bug I guess your right about possible illegal build by TLG

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Has been reported, and from what I understand fixed in LDD4.

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Very good find. It's not often these days we get this kind of serious bug. Concider it reported.

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I agree it's strange only the jumper plates is removed. But depending in which order you place the parts, if you re-place them many time etc you can get these issue. After playing around some, I managed to get it so other parts also were removed, so it could be a case of the slack that is in LDD doesn't go in your favour on the jumper plate. In any case it's an illegal build that TLG used themeselves (the more I learn about this, the more I see that they use illegal builds when it suits them :hmpf_bad:)

View Postprateek, on 10 October 2010 - 04:35 PM, said:

I have a question. Why does LDD remove improperly placed bricks anyways? Does the program crash if they are kept?
They are removed because the bricks violate the collision boxes defined for each brick, and it's is a basic rule in LDD that bricks should not overlap - hence they are removed. The program wouldn't crash per se - if they wanted the LDD programmers could temporily overridea collision warnings (and have bricks flow into each other). But to keep models clean and structurally sounds, any violating bricks are removed.

When a brick is removed, LDD creates a file here  
C:\Users\[User Name]\AppData\Roaming\LEGO Company
called UnplaceableBricksDump.lxfml

You can open and have a look at it.

If that doesn't help, you can import both the "old" and the "cleaned" file to LDD Manager and analyze for the difference (i.e. the removed bricks)
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#252 ghyde

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:24 AM

I'm not sure if this has been reported already, but if it hasn't:

In LDD Hinge Align tool won't correctly align hinge plates so that they could connect stacked onto each other! This would require the Hinge Align tool to recognize multiple simultaneous connections, at least 2 pairs.

If hinges are stacked and connected so that they would connect in a circle or trapezoid shape, Hinge tool cannot rotate any of them. This would appear to be a case of the Hinge tool not being able to figure out the effect of other hinges being rotated while connected to other hinges. An oversight, perhaps? LDD can figure out technic beams connected together and rotate them properly, so I think the designers didn't program the hinge plates right.

Part of the problem is the Hinge Align tool can't connect the hinges properly so that their studs line up to the underside of the other hinge plate being connected to, the Hinge Align tool instead wrecks the connection by bending one stud out of the way on the hinge and it fits wrongly.

When making connections with hinges manually, LDD needs to allow a little bit of automatic adjustment for the hinges. If LDD was able to automatically cause connected hinges to rotate as needed while making a rotation attempt or movement that would result in a successful connection hinge plates would be a lot easier

If LDD had a "cause and effect mode" IE the selected part is dragged and connected parts automatically follow it around in a logical movement behind it, if they can, then making things connect to each other would be lots easier! This mode of course should allow manual rotation in directions allowed by the connected parts while dragging to be used on the selected part or parts being dragged. This could mean some new keyboard shortcut functionality might be needed to allow this, or perhaps extending the current keyboard shortcuts to interact with this new mode would be sufficient.

Edited by ghyde, 11 October 2010 - 08:25 AM.

Cheers ...

ghyde

#253 BrickWild

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:27 AM

I've loaded my electronic drumkit model today & 1 element was not placed correctly (the base plate)

EDIT: moved cymbal supports (lightsaber sticks) & fixed it!

Edited by BrickWild, 13 October 2010 - 01:29 AM.

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#254 Superkalle

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:58 AM

View Postghyde, on 11 October 2010 - 08:24 AM, said:

I'm not sure if this has been reported already, but if it hasn't:

In LDD Hinge Align tool won't correctly align hinge plates so that they could connect stacked onto each other! This would require the Hinge Align tool to recognize multiple simultaneous connections, at least 2 pairs.

If hinges are stacked and connected so that they would connect in a circle or trapezoid shape, Hinge tool cannot rotate any of them. This would appear to be a case of the Hinge tool not being able to figure out the effect of other hinges being rotated while connected to other hinges. An oversight, perhaps? LDD can figure out technic beams connected together and rotate them properly, so I think the designers didn't program the hinge plates right.

Part of the problem is the Hinge Align tool can't connect the hinges properly so that their studs line up to the underside of the other hinge plate being connected to, the Hinge Align tool instead wrecks the connection by bending one stud out of the way on the hinge and it fits wrongly.
Could you post some pics that illustrate this, please.
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#255 ghyde

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:31 AM

View PostSuperkalle, on 13 October 2010 - 08:58 AM, said:

Could you post some pics that illustrate this, please.

I think the below pic says it all! I just selected the stud on the black lower hinge and the spot it should connect to on the upper side, and this is what the Hihge Align tool thinks the connection should be like. Obviously, what really should happen is that the plates are aligned properly. But if I can't select both studs and their corresponding holes they should go into, the Hinge Align tool won't get it right!

Posted Image
Cheers ...

ghyde

#256 Aanchir

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:25 PM

View Postghyde, on 13 October 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

I think the below pic says it all! I just selected the stud on the black lower hinge and the spot it should connect to on the upper side, and this is what the Hihge Align tool thinks the connection should be like. Obviously, what really should happen is that the plates are aligned properly. But if I can't select both studs and their corresponding holes they should go into, the Hinge Align tool won't get it right!

Posted Image
Using the hinge align tool with studs is ridiculously difficult, particularly when you're dealing with not just one hinge but a whole chain of them. LDD just can't handle that kind of complexity in most cases.

My recommendation would be to create a framework using pieces that naturally can be made to work at the correct angle-- I'm thinking parts like these. That way, you can create a rigid system and just focus on aligning one hinge at a time. Perhaps I'll try myself during my spare time to make sure this strategy is feasible (and possibly even provide you with the completed loop if I finish successfully).

This is the sort of workaround I usually find myself relying upon. Really, though, it's true that this is something that should be fixed or at least improved upon in future versions.

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#257 ghyde

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:43 PM

View PostAanchir, on 13 October 2010 - 12:25 PM, said:

Using the hinge align tool with studs is ridiculously difficult, particularly when you're dealing with not just one hinge but a whole chain of them. LDD just can't handle that kind of complexity in most cases.

My recommendation would be to create a framework using pieces that naturally can be made to work at the correct angle-- I'm thinking parts like these. That way, you can create a rigid system and just focus on aligning one hinge at a time. Perhaps I'll try myself during my spare time to make sure this strategy is feasible (and possibly even provide you with the completed loop if I finish successfully).

This is the sort of workaround I usually find myself relying upon. Really, though, it's true that this is something that should be fixed or at least improved upon in future versions.

LDD could handle it, it's just a matter of correctly designing the Hinge Tool code to know what kind of connection is being asked for and to try logical connections that fit the connection being requested.

I want something basically semicircular so that I could use those panels to make an ornate curved window. I wanted nice semicircular buildings with an ornate curving window on the outside, like most mansions and large houses would have. But to do this with hinges in LDD is time-consuming and difficult if the Hinge Tool doesn't position things right.

I then put a base underneath it with plates and inverted slopes, and plate and tile a floor under it.

But in order to do this I first need to work out some initial calculations in LDD as to how many hinges the curve will need, and how big the space needs to be to accomodate the minfigs as well.

Eventually, it'll be a fully fledged scene but I hate having to buy a whole lot of parts without working out how many I'll need first
Cheers ...

ghyde

#258 roamingstudio

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:44 PM

I am currently building the carousel - and had a similar issue with a 12 sided beat. The best way was to use the physical layout recommended in the instructions set - using plates and 1x2 tiles with studs to get the correct (and legal) spacing of the elements... then click the hinge too until they locked together (it took five minutes)... and then copy and paste.

I also checked it was legal by first making 1/4 work, then save and exit LDD... and restart LDD to make sure the pieces remained in place (it worked).

The Carousel will still take some time to finish off - im on the moving plates at the moment - but is so far legal.
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#259 Aanchir

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 01:16 PM

View Postghyde, on 13 October 2010 - 12:43 PM, said:

LDD could handle it, it's just a matter of correctly designing the Hinge Tool code to know what kind of connection is being asked for and to try logical connections that fit the connection being requested.

I want something basically semicircular so that I could use those panels to make an ornate curved window. I wanted nice semicircular buildings with an ornate curving window on the outside, like most mansions and large houses would have. But to do this with hinges in LDD is time-consuming and difficult if the Hinge Tool doesn't position things right.

I then put a base underneath it with plates and inverted slopes, and plate and tile a floor under it.

But in order to do this I first need to work out some initial calculations in LDD as to how many hinges the curve will need, and how big the space needs to be to accomodate the minfigs as well.

Eventually, it'll be a fully fledged scene but I hate having to buy a whole lot of parts without working out how many I'll need first

Well, here you go. That didn't take as long as I expected. Of course, it's naturally not something I'd like to do a second time.

The fact that you want something semicircular means that this might not help you-- I thought you were trying to make all the angles equal and create a complete circle-- but in any case it will be available to anyone who needs help with 30-degree hinge plates in the future.

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#260 ghyde

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 01:05 PM

View PostAanchir, on 13 October 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

Well, here you go. That didn't take as long as I expected. Of course, it's naturally not something I'd like to do a second time.

The fact that you want something semicircular means that this might not help you-- I thought you were trying to make all the angles equal and create a complete circle-- but in any case it will be available to anyone who needs help with 30-degree hinge plates in the future.

Okay, something funny is going on with your .lxf file.

I downloaded it, and opened it in LDD. But LDD complained saying "If you use these bricks, you will not be able to buy the bricks or upload your model to lego.com" However, when I import a model that has bricks that definitely cannot be bought, and I use the "check buyability" option on the model sitting next to the ring, the ring is greyed out, meaning those parts are buyable.

That's just plain weird.

Also, why does your file open in LEGO Digital Designer mode, and not in DesignByME or LEGO Universe mode?

Edited by ghyde, 14 October 2010 - 01:08 PM.

Cheers ...

ghyde

#261 Zblj

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:25 AM

No matter what you do, you cannot perfectly align these two bricks:

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#262 Aanchir

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:34 PM

View PostZblj, on 18 October 2010 - 07:25 AM, said:

No matter what you do, you cannot perfectly align these two bricks:

You can, and here's how (it's a trick I use all the time, since this bug applies to most clip pieces). Create a 1x4 plate, and place a 1x1 plate on the studs at either end. Attach part 6019 atop one of these 1x1 plates, with the clip facing toward the other. Then attach part 60478 on the other 1x1 plate, with the handle extending away from the clip you just added. Lastly, use the hinge tool to rotate 60478 by 180 degrees. When you've done this, the two parts will be perfectly aligned.

You don't have to use this exact technique to line them up, but you get the idea. Basically, you have to place each part on a stud at the correct distance apart, making sure they don't attach, then use the hinge tool to rotate them into a position where they do attach. This trick can be modified to work for practically any clip-and-bar hinge you need to construct.

This isn't to say your problem isn't valid-- this is a bug, and one that I hope gets taken care of promptly. But I just wanted to offer you that little work-around so that it's no longer a bug that stands between you and whatever it is you intended to build.

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#263 Superkalle

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 02:38 PM

View PostAanchir, on 18 October 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

You can, and here's how (it's a trick I use all the time, since this bug applies to most clip pieces).
Interestig! Could you upload a LXF with the solution please  :classic:
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#264 Aanchir

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:17 PM

View PostSuperkalle, on 18 October 2010 - 02:38 PM, said:

Interestig! Could you upload a LXF with the solution please  :classic:
Done! Click the image to download the LXF file!

Posted Image

Included are the four most basic types of clip-and-bar connections where I encounter this problem. The constructs with the transparent blue bricks and plates are what I use to solve this problem-- just rotate the gray pieces ninety degrees counter-clockwise to complete the connection. Also included are the completed clip-and-bar connections that result, so if you don't have the patience to recreate my designs, you can just copy-and-paste from there. The transparent blue constructs are mainly there for the sole purpose of demonstrating what sort of sizes you'll likely be dealing with if you have to make a connection between similar but far-less-common pieces-- just construct a variation of this "scaffolding" for whatever sort of measurements the pieces you need call for.

There are other places where I have used similar "scaffolding" to this-- oftentimes, it becomes so complicated that I must delete the "scaffolding" and let one piece levitate while I rotate the other into place. The most difficult I've encountered are Mars Mission aliens, since the clip on their legs is not centered along the same axis as the anti-studs under their feet. I'll make a template for these more specialized variations on this problem and solution if I have the time.

There is an alternative to this, of course, which is to create a file with the two pieces you need, unzip it, and use a text editor to adjust the coordinates of where the parts are lined up. But that's way more difficult, and next to impossible with more specialized connections like the aforementioned Mars Mission aliens. After all, if you goof up your coordinates, the bricks may become unplaceable meaning you have to start from scratch! I find that in any situation, it's better to use scaffolding like I have created here, since that will help train you to solve similar problems in the future.

It's possible that, with LDD 4.0 just over the horizon, this and some of the other templates on my Brickshelf may soon become obsolete. But in any case, they're free for anyone to use whether for a MOC or for an actual set. Hope this helps!

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#265 headlessroland

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:44 PM

I've found a boundary bug, but I don't know whether TLG would be interested because it's a brick that's only available in Universe mode. "Shutterholder 1x1x2" in the doors group.

The physical brick can't be attached where there would be a stud in front of it, because the tab sticks out too far. In LDD the tab goes into the stud. It looks odd if you use the hinge tool to spin it round, it's cutting through the studs around it.

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#266 Superkalle

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:23 AM

View Postheadlessroland, on 18 October 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

I've found a boundary bug, but I don't know whether TLG would be interested because it's a brick that's only available in Universe mode. "Shutterholder 1x1x2" in the doors group.

The physical brick can't be attached where there would be a stud in front of it, because the tab sticks out too far. In LDD the tab goes into the stud. It looks odd if you use the hinge tool to spin it round, it's cutting through the studs around it.
G'day headlessroland.

Good spottin - haven't seen that before! It's seems like a typical collision volume bug. It can be serious, because it may allow incorrect brick placement. Since we're chatting away (or at least I am :classic:) here is, as a general reference, the severity categorisation for LDD brick bugs that I've used so far (please feel free to comment you all!)

1) Critical - the use of the brick will crash LDD or otherwise severerly cripple usage. Extremely rare - I think we've ever had one or two here at the LDD forum.
2) Major - You can't use a brick in LDD as intended because of geometry restrictions or lack of connectivity. This will hinder your ability to place bricks as you can with physical bricks*. It can also include incorrectly placed decorations that practically ruin the use of a brick. Example include the Road baseplates in LDD 3.
3) Minor - You can place a brick in LDD like it's not allowed to be placed with real bricks. For example, bricks may overlap into each other or there is some connectivity in LDD that doesn't work or exist with real bricks.
4) Cosmetic - Cosmetic errors, like small glitches in decorations, poor LOD (level of detail) in the brick etc or glitches in the bricks visualisation on screen.

Sometimes a bug can be raised a notch if it's a very common brick or connection.

*) Sometimes LDD will not support a connection because they are seen as illegal by TLG. In this case it's not categorised as a bug.
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#267 Aanchir

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 11:51 AM

View PostSuperkalle, on 19 October 2010 - 08:23 AM, said:

G'day headlessroland.

Good spottin - haven't seen that before! It's seems like a typical collision volume bug. It can be serious, because it may allow incorrect brick placement. Since we're chatting away (or at least I am :classic:) here is, as a general reference, the severity categorisation for LDD brick bugs that I've used so far (please feel free to comment you all!)

1) Critical - the use of the brick will crash LDD or otherwise severerly cripple usage. Extremely rare - I think we've ever had one or two here at the LDD forum.
2) Major - You can't use a brick in LDD as intended because of geometry restrictions or lack of connectivity. This will hinder your ability to place bricks as you can with physical bricks*. It can also include incorrectly placed decorations that practically ruin the use of a brick. Example include the Road baseplates in LDD 3.
3) Minor - You can place a brick in LDD like it's not allowed to be placed with real bricks. For example, bricks may overlap into each other or there is some connectivity in LDD that doesn't work or exist with real bricks.
4) Cosmetic - Cosmetic errors, like small glitches in decorations, poor LOD (level of detail) in the brick etc or glitches in the bricks visualisation on screen.

Sometimes a bug can be raised a notch if it's a very common brick or connection.

*) Sometimes LDD will not support a connection because they are seen as illegal by TLG. In this case it's not categorised as a bug.
Good classification system, but I'd also separate "minor" into two categories-- one being "minor" as it's defined now, and another being a more serious form where the bricks are allowed to be placed illegally but are then removed from the model when you try to load it again. This is more serious because it can be frustrating to no end opening a file, finding that one of your pieces has been removed due to placement errors, and then stripping the model to the bare bones trying to figure out which piece was removed and whether it can be moved or replaced without encountering a similar error.

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#268 Superkalle

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

View PostAanchir, on 19 October 2010 - 11:51 AM, said:

Good classification system, but I'd also separate "minor" into two categories-- one being "minor" as it's defined now, and another being a more serious form where the bricks are allowed to be placed illegally but are then removed from the model when you try to load it again. This is more serious because it can be frustrating to no end opening a file, finding that one of your pieces has been removed due to placement errors, and then stripping the model to the bare bones trying to figure out which piece was removed and whether it can be moved or replaced without encountering a similar error.
I agree - removed bricks is a nuicance, but I would categorise this as Major actually. But do we have any known cases where this happens? My memory is bit vague. I know it can happen in a few odd times where you've been moved brick around lots of times and somehow a brick gets placed "out of tolerance", but what about cases where you start a new file from scratch and just connect bricks?
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#269 prateek

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 01:21 AM

Just out of curiosity, what are the few critical errors?

#270 Zblj

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:26 AM

One of critical would be a linear actuator. It cannont be tilted with hinge tool, and even if you manage to attach it at any other angle than 90 degrees, it gets deleted like by hauler.

#271 Superkalle

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:01 PM

The one I was thinking about was the case with a certain LXF-file, that if you went in to Generate Building Guide mode, LDD would crash. Can't remember when it was reported, probably 6 months ago.
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#272 headlessroland

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:18 PM

Hi Superkalle,

Interesting to read that severity classification, nice to see how you group the bugs. I've got another one for you here, but again the parts are Universe mode only. Do TLG want bug reports from Universe mode, or only from the standard modes?

Under the group with the joystick icon, "mini fig. dragon", "mini fig. wing dragon r." and "mini fig. win dragon l." all have a thicker round collar, just above the tiny round peg that fits into a helmet, that's supposed to clip into a holder. As an example of official use, Black Knight's Castle 6086 uses a pair of dragons clipped over the castle entrance (instruction page at Peeron). LDD doesn't allow the connection.

Posted Image

After typing that I've just remembered, I saw set 6086 on the Official Lego Sets Made In LDD thread. AndyC's version has the two dragons lying next to the castle but not explicitly mentioned, but I can't see it in this thread so I don't know whether it's already been reported.

#273 Superkalle

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:44 PM

View Postheadlessroland, on 24 October 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

Hi Superkalle,

Interesting to read that severity classification, nice to see how you group the bugs. I've got another one for you here, but again the parts are Universe mode only. Do TLG want bug reports from Universe mode, or only from the standard modes?

Under the group with the joystick icon, "mini fig. dragon", "mini fig. wing dragon r." and "mini fig. win dragon l." all have a thicker round collar, just above the tiny round peg that fits into a helmet, that's supposed to clip into a holder. As an example of official use, Black Knight's Castle 6086 uses a pair of dragons clipped over the castle entrance (instruction page at Peeron). LDD doesn't allow the connection.
Good spottin' headlessroland! Also I notice that the two wing parts cannot be stacked ontop of each other (i.e. the tiny round peg won't go into the small hole of the other). However I don't know if they are supposed to with real bricks.

And yes, all bugs are certainly wanted by TLG, including the ones for Universe Mode. At least that's what I've been told  :classic:
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