100 replies to this topic

[Hinckley]

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I can tell when something is (partly?) directed at me. Here's what I think about this particular subject. I get into it, sure. Do I take it seriously? Well no, I really, really want to win, but no more than that, I don't get negative feelings, about the way they play, sure, but do I get resentment or other negative emotions, no, of course not. I actually really like it when people get "on my level", whatever that means, on playing. It's mafia, you are supposed to lie, play dirty, all tactics are allowed, that's my opinion, it's a dirty game.

It's not you at all. I think I'm the only person who likes you. I particularly think it's funny when you think I'm treating you like a child. I don't even know or care how old you are. I think you're a brilliant player. Everything I did in PM is exactly what I would've done with you if I were Town. I can see now where you thought you struck a nerve. That would seem rather telling. But, that post was based on what I got in my conversations with Cornelius and Foog. You're going to be a dick, I accept that. That's your tactic. From what I know of you, you don't treat other people like that outside of games. I hate to disappoint you, but I like you.

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

And I totally agree with the fact that things like false results and such should not be worded ambigously, that means you know it's tempered with, and will always carry out the exact opposite.

Thank you!

[Scubacarrot]

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

It's not you at all. I think I'm the only person who likes you. I particularly think it's funny when you think I'm treating you like a child. I don't even know or care how old you are. I think you're a brilliant player. Everything I did in PM is exactly what I would've done with you if I were Town. I can see now where you thought you struck a nerve. That would seem rather telling. But, that post was based on what I got in my conversations with Cornelius and Foog. You're going to be a dick, I accept that. That's your tactic. From what I know of you, you don't treat other people like that outside of games. I hate to disappoint you, but I like you.

Damn. Foiled again...

[Hinckley]

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Hinckley, the thing is that you tried to hard when in context with me, the sudden change in attitude was what made it 100% clear, but your words were never that honeyed, dude. That's what made it clear to me you were scum. Still, I don't think you played as bad as you say, some townies really trusted you, and that's no easy thing. It's one thing to keep out of reach, it's another to make people trust you!

Thanks. Like I said, the change in attitude wasn't really a change in attitude. I was just as annoyed with both PMs that you were trying to "leverage your vote" *cough* blackmail *cough*. Honestly, I've never encountered such a thing. That's another thing a couple people did to me during this game that pissed me off. I said I was going into a meeting with the one PM, so it didn't reflect my true reaction because I was fucking busy. I was god damn busy, people. Stop fucking pestering me . No, that's not all for you, Scumba. There were a couple paranoid freakouts by PM from people who wanted responses now now now. Shut up.

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

As I said before, I am impressed by DD and WBD the most. DD, I did not have you pegged in private conversation at all. I don't know if that says a lot about me, but I know it says a lot about you, I think you did extremely well. The roleclaim you did was kinda unbelievable (especially the not using the roles thing), so that's when I naturally thought you were scum. GG! WBD, I think you were great, as I said before, Broadsword Killer, you are my hero. Shame it had to end for you like that, but it just means you were awesome. Very well thought out manouver, as well!

I agree 100%. I was most impressed with DarkDragon whose Scum game in Excalibur was rather transparent compared to the mastermind we saw in this one. I loved the risk in contacting WaterbrickDown, not to mention the deduction that he was the serial killer...I mean other vig. With a better roleclaim, I think you could've led the Scum team to a win!

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Dragonator, so much mixed feelings! On one side I was extremely annoyed by your misplaced gloating and such, and your obvious wrong lynch of Pandora, and more obvious wrong stuff all the time, but at the same time on TOP of your suspicious behaviour, I think you played very well, got it together in the end and played a/the major part in winning it for the town at the end.

I'd say you both should play the next Mafia School game but I wouldn't wish that on the other students...

[Darkdragon]

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

I agree 100%. I was most impressed with DarkDragon whose Scum game in Excalibur was rather transparent compared to the mastermind we saw in this one. I loved the risk in contacting WaterbrickDown, not to mention the deduction that he was the serial killer...I mean other vig. With a better roleclaim, I think you could've led the Scum team to a win!

Thanks Scuba and Hinckley!

I for sure feel I've done better this game than any of my other games, but I still have a really long way to go and so much to learn. Role claim, I knew that was going to trip me up. It was only a matter of time before I was tracked. On the night I was tracked, luckily I had correctly surmised that I was gonig to be tracked that night - mostly because Bob had been tracked the night before, and there were not very many "unconfirmed" players by then. It made total sense.

I'm pretty sure Ex2 was my first ever scum game, so yeah I wasn't very good but  I did my best there and I did my best here. It's all about learning and improving and mostly having fun.

[Hinckley]

Darkdragon, on 19 November 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yes, I took control at the end of Night 4 and had what remained of the team do something other than what Hinck had directed us to do. No, this did not lose us the game. In the end, only ONE target was changed and that was the kill.  Honestly, there is no reason to keep an investigator alive over a blocker. The role iteslf was much less dangerous to us than that investigation role, which as you say Hinck is pretty much what got you lynched.

That's a discussion we would've had if you hadn't thought I was a cult leader. At no point did I direct anything. We discussed it. You made me believe we had come to that conclusion together. No matter how hard I tried to discuss all possibilities, you still thought I was trying to keep badboy alive because we were a cult. Which is weird since I discussed everything with you guys. We even talked about the investigator being the more important role to get rid of and I explained why I thought Draggy was the better target. I even said something like "Am I being petty since it was Draggy who caused my lynch? I really think he's the one that everyone will trust tomorrow. This may be the only opportunity to kill him and keep the Town disorganized." I'm disappointed that you felt I was directing. I thought I was gathering everyone's opinions and we were all discussing all of the possibilities together. We changed a lot of our targets through our discussion and came up with a lot of ideas together. I never would've done something we hadn't discussed and I never used my conversion action even though I thought we had some really good targets and we changed my night action submission 5 times on Night Two. But, I did what you wanted me to, even thought we should use it.

[Dragonator]

Scubacarrot, on 19 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

On top of that I just want to say. That theory, it totally fitted. I am just saying.

I'll say it again, if there is no evidence that there is a third party, that's probably because there isn't! I maintain that that was a terrible theory. On the whole though, I do commend you for trying to think at least Scumba. You're not the only one that go things wrong as you can see, but Rick and Pandy didn't help themselves much! I was very pleased with how well the town power roles worked together, even if Scouty and I were convinced from early on that WBD was an SK.

Really awesome playing Darkdragon, you did a great job to try and throw us at the end there. If not for your quick thinking in convo with WBD, I would have blocked you and the game would have ended right there I would say. Well done giving your team an extra chance! And thanks for all the mind twisting, I always appreciate it. I'm looking forward to the mind twisting you have prepared for us soon.

Overall I approve of the game balance, both sides had some interesting actions which caused the town all sorts of mayhem. The Paranoid Axe Owner is always a tricky one, as it is more likely to cause the town harm than it is to cause harm to the scum. I think having two vigs was certainly interesting, it is good to not always play to people's expectations.

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

I'd say you both should play the next Mafia School game but I wouldn't wish that on the other students...

I would encourage you to join us.

[Darkdragon]

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

That's a discussion we would've had if you hadn't thought I was a cult leader. At no point did I direct anything. We discussed it. You made me believe we had come to that conclusion together. No matter how hard I tried to discuss all possibilities, you still thought I was trying to keep badboy alive because we were a cult.

Yes we did lots of discussion. Discussion doesn't change the fact that I was suspicious and I had to test it. Your insistance on why he was more important to keep alive was a major part of it. I didn't agree, and I really don't think there was anything you and I could have done to come to see eye-to-eye on the badboy/draggy situation. In the end, I  was the one who was able to direct the action and I did it. Right or wrong, we really needed to take them both out but never did get another chance on Draggy. We should have taken him out on night 1 or night 2 at the latests, as soon as you had info that he was a PR.

As the most experianced player on the team, please don't say you didn't lead or direct anything. We all know that's not true, and to say otherwise is just patronizing. We all work (or try to) together yes, we discuss things yes, but in the end somoene on the scum team ends up telling others a "final" plan of action (usuallyon the WB) - because there are some players that don't participate in the discussions and just want to be told what to do. I'm guessing this happens in town blocks too, but honestly I can't say that for sure because I've never really been part of one.

[Hinckley]

Dragonator, on 19 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

I would encourage you to join us.

I'm basing that on your wager, not your abilities...

[Dragonator]

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I'm basing that on your wager, not your abilities...

You clearly didn't read our wager then.

[Hinckley]

Darkdragon, on 19 November 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

As the most experianced player on the team, please don't say you didn't lead or direct anything. We all know that's not true, and to say otherwise is just patronizing.

I don't see it that way.

[Darkdragon]

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

I don't see it that way.

ok

[Hinckley]

Dragonator, on 19 November 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

You clearly didn't read our wager then.

No, I read it. It was a rather safe wager for you to make.

Either way, it was fun to watch people arguing so vehemently and both be wrong.

[Dragonator]

Oh! How can I forget to say what an awesome town block I had! Scouty you were a great consultant and I really appreciated your input on everything, as well as constantly protecting my ass. While I was doubtful of you at one point, you helped sooth my paranoia and I appreciated it. Redblade I have to say you played an awesome game too. You used your ability well and contributed a lot to finding other town PRs and scum as well, you're well on your way to being a fantastic EB Mafia player.

Hinckley, on 19 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Either way, it was fun to watch people arguing so vehemently and both be wrong.

Indeed! It took me right back to when I watched you and Shadows in Infection. Damn good times. Weiner anyone?

[Hinckley]

Dragonator, on 19 November 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Indeed! It took me right back to when I watched you and Shadows in Infection. Damn good times. Weiner anyone?

Correction: That was me, Shadows and Stash. And you were still alive, so it had to have been more fun for you.

[Scouty]

Dragonator, on 19 November 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Oh! How can I forget to say what an awesome town block I had! Scouty you were a great consultant and I really appreciated your input on everything, as well as constantly protecting my ass. While I was doubtful of you at one point, you helped sooth my paranoia and I appreciated it.

I totally had my own doubts about you at times, but towards the end, I found it truly difficult to doubt you, always thinking "No, a scum wouldn't do that, he couldn't possibly be scum!" We worked together so well and it was a fantastic Town Block that we formed up in the end. The ironic thing is that it was partly Hinck's fault that brought us all together to work against him and his team It was a great honor working with you, Draggy

Hinck, did so many people really role claim to you?

[Hinckley]

Scouty, on 19 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Hinck, did so many people really role claim to you?

I made up one or two. Who did roleclaim to me: Draggy, Chromeknight, badboy. I think that was it... I knew you because Draggy said he was in contact with a protector. Foog had been talking to the tracker. I was pretty close to knowing what the Town was capable of. I never knew who the Watcher was. I only knew Fugazi was the vig because we used the role investigator on him. Fhomess never told me he had the bulletproof vest. I was just trying to drive a wedge between Chromeknight and whoever he trusted enough to give an invention to on Night One.

I had no idea what Chromeknight was telling me when it came to his role mechanics. I didn't want to clarify because I didn't want him to think I was prying and asking for Scummy reasons. But the random blank and the ascetic and the fact that he couldn't choose the invention , it had me really confused. I think most of it was that he thought bulletproof was useless so he referred to it as such. Combine that with the blanks and I couldn't figure out if he had succeeded in giving someone an invention on Night One or not.

[Waterbrick Down]

Alrighty then.

Playing a compulsive vig was sort of a pain but it was fun at the same time. I figured I was pretty much screwed when Foog was assumed to be the vig during day 3 and had to figure out how to keep from being accused of being a SK should I be caught targetting someone. Thankfully enough of you gave away town tells that I was comfortable claiming to you, Scouty in particular, followed by Scuba. My kills weren't rocket science and mainly based on who was contributing what and how they were going about doing it. As far as balance, I do think it was maybe a bit skewed in the towns favor, but you've got to look at it this way: with the amount of killing abilities on the town's side, there was a greater propensity that we were going to end up killing each other instead of scum, even though it didn't turn out that way.   Overall and I've said this before, this was one of my favorite mafia games and I applaud TPRU for his tremendous work on it.

On to player thoughts:

Scouty: I'm sorry I had to turn on you during the last moment, we were proving to be quite the team taking out the scum one at a time. You did an excellent job in your analysis of players and helped us secure the votes when it was vital during the lynches of Genaro and Bob. As the protector, you did a fairly good job of keeping yourself hidden and revealing yourself to the right people. Your attitude to keep an open mind, even if it was to consider such a preposterous idea as two scum factions having the exact same name and not needing to fulfill their written win condition was refreshing and encouraging to here from a townie instead of getting tunnel vision on a specific candidate. Good game sir.

Darkdragon: Even though this was only your second game as scum, you have definitely improved! You made the decisions and risks that needed to be made, even when it would have been easier to just give up and join the rest of the decimated scum team. I didn't know what to think when I was converted to a neutral and didn't even assume that it had anything to do with a conversion to scum. The day you contacted me about being converted, I think I was furious, sad, frustrated, hopeful, and paraonid all at the same time. Our 4 PM pages of WIFOM trying to figure out who was lying and who was telling the truth was exhilerating and nail-biting, exactly how mafia should be.   You made a big bet and you pulled it off for the most part, even though we basically shot ourselves in the foot by neither of us telling the other the entire truth. I look forward to more games with you, hopefully playing on the same side from the start.

Dragonator: I don't think I ever doubted that you were the town blocker, but your attitude sure didn't help. You played a good game and helped lead the town when it counted. I at least have to thank you for your willingness to try and stop the conversion, I could have seen players of different attitudes just ignoring my plea for help, letting me get converted and then killing me the next day just to save the trouble, it really showed a townie-centered play style. Aside from being dead set on Pandora and Rick being mafia, which was partly my fault, you did great.

Scuba: Dude, even though you can come off as rude sometime, I think you play these games all out and even though you can get a little tunnel vision sometimes, you can be a great asset when it comes to duking things out in thread and strategizing behind the scenes. If you ever lose your combative attitude when I'm playing, I will personally see to it that your are lynched on the spot for being too nice. It was a blast playing with you.

Chromeknight: I wished I could have told you more and strategized with you further, but I was trying to juggle too many balls at once, mainly Scuba (my outside contact), Scouty (my inside contact), and DD (the scum who was trying to convert me). You were very involved in this game and I appreciate that in townies, even if some of your analysis may have been wrong at times, keep it up and I'm sure you will go far.

I'll add more later, but these were off the top of my head before lunch.

[fhomess]

I also think DD played a great game, although I did notice you avoided placing a hammer vote on Genaro on Day 2. When we were trying to get that final vote, you were online but didn't place the vote. I called you on it early on Day 3 and you managed to assuage my immediate concerns but I did have a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind.

Why did the scum team kill me after I came out and said my inheritance failed and I was now vanilla? Was it merely the concern that I was lying about that? I didn't think you knew that I had that action, so it would not have made sense to come out with that information unless it was true.

A quick comment on Scuba... I think your aggressive style works really well in terms of frustrating scum and trying to root them out. The problem is that it can be grating on the town. I expect that in some games it will serve you very well, and in other games, like this one, it will not be as helpful. It makes it hard to tell which side you're really helping, but it does help you distance yourself from players who've been confirmed scum. After Hinck came up scum, I pretty much had no doubt that you were town.

As for metagaming analysis of other players, and this is in relation to Hinck's comment, all of us who've been involved in a few games do it by now. We all read each other a little differently, too. It's just about impossible to play a game and not be misread from a metagaming perspective, and it doesn't matter which team you're on. Someone, I think it might've been Scuba, expressed that he was not trusting me early because he didn't think I was playing as I usually do. I'm not sure how true that was or not, but I do know that I'm constantly evolving as a player. The fact that some people were reading Hinck one way versus another and contradicting each other doesn't necessarily mean they were wrong about how town-Hinck plays, they may just have been referencing a different point or perceived something differently. It's not something quantifiably right or wrong.

Oh, and a note to future investigators... don't claim to scum on day 1, even if it does get scum-Hinck lynched eventually.

[Darkdragon]

fhomess, on 19 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Why did the scum team kill me after I came out and said my inheritance failed and I was now vanilla? Was it merely the concern that I was lying about that? I didn't think you knew that I had that action, so it would not have made sense to come out with that information unless it was true.

Just to cause confusion as to why we would kill you.

[Scouty]

Waterbrick Down, on 19 November 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Scouty: I'm sorry I had to turn on you during the last moment, we were proving to be quite the team taking out the scum one at a time. You did an excellent job in your analysis of players and helped us secure the votes when it was vital during the lynches of Genaro and Bob. As the protector, you did a fairly good job of keeping yourself hidden and revealing yourself to the right people. Your attitude to keep an open mind, even if it was to consider such a preposterous idea as two scum factions having the exact same name and not needing to fulfill their written win condition was refreshing and encouraging to here from a townie instead of getting tunnel vision on a specific candidate. Good game sir.

Like Draggy said, we though you were the Serial Killer for the longest time, because Bob had said Fugazi was the vig and some other actions to confirm that, so we assumed you were the SK. When Bob died, and he was revealed scum, I expressed my doubts of your being a SK and maybe as the true scum, though I assumed that meant Fugazi had a one-shot. It was really sad that we had to kill you in the end, you worked so hard for the town. Draggy and I had some discussion about your being a SK who just had to survive, and we hoped that was the case so that you could win with us. Didn't ever stop to think there could be two vigs . It might have helped if you said, at least later on, that you were the compulsive vigilante, it would have helped at least separate you from Fugazi more. Or it might've made us more suspicious, so I'm not sure what the right decision was . Anyway, besides having to kill you in the end (which, I have to admit, your last PM to me was very cheesy ), we had a great partnership and even if we didn't trust each other fully, we all worked hard in what we did and got the job done . You were a wonderful vig for the town to have, wish you could've won it with us

[Darkdragon]

Scouty, on 19 November 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

You were a wonderful vig for the town to have, wish you could've won it with us

I must disagree, i wish he could have won with us (the scum).

[Hinckley]

Darkdragon, on 19 November 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Just to cause confusion as to why we would kill you.

Also, you wanted to show that Draggy was killing and accusing Townies left and right.

[Scouty]

Darkdragon, on 19 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I must disagree, i wish he could have won with us (the scum).

Except that would never have worked. Even if he had kept his conversion quiet and all that jazz and gone with it, we still had the watcher who watched you and that would have done you in. I immediately thought that made you scum, because (1, there shouldn't have been any townie roles left to justify you're being an innocent, so you had to be scum, and (2 your role claim of tracker had several holes in it (also the fact that saying you tracked WBD and that he killed Etzel is so see through because everybody saw the broadsword killer kill Etzel, so we already knew that, therefore, you knew that, too, and could have used it for your claim. We would've gotten you. Draggy and I had suspicions WBD was the SK, so when we had killed you off, we would've probably have gone after him when the game wasn't over, even under the suspicion of his being the SK, not a scum. In the end, you would've still lost

[Hinckley]

Scouty, on 19 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Except that would never have worked. Even if he had kept his conversion quiet and all that jazz and gone with it, we still had the watcher who watched you and that would have done you in. I immediately thought that made you scum, because (1, there shouldn't have been any townie roles left to justify you're being an innocent, so you had to be scum, and (2 your role claim of tracker had several holes in it (also the fact that saying you tracked WBD and that he killed Etzel is so see through because everybody saw the broadsword killer kill Etzel, so we already knew that, therefore, you knew that, too, and could have used it for your claim. We would've gotten you. Draggy and I had suspicions WBD was the SK, so when we had killed you off, we would've probably have gone after him when the game wasn't over, even under the suspicion of his being the SK, not a scum. In the end, you would've still lost

Except she was going to say she was a Jack-of-all-Trades if you pressed her any further. Seriously, our role claims did us in a bit as well. I was a two-shot bodyguard, and DarkDragon and Bob both claimed Scum roles. Even tracker is more likely to be a Scum role. Ooops.

However, Scouty, I think if she had converted WBD and lived, which would've given us two kills, we would've gotten rid of the dumb Watcher and you wouldn't have suspected WaterbrickDown since you would've seen the Scum killing at night. That's assuming a lot and would've been hard to accomplish if Draggy had two blocks and someone else would've had to be less confirmed that DarkDragon at that point, but still... anyway.

Ugh, how aggravating was it watching the Town switch vote targets three or four times a day? The last minute lynch of Bob was really annoying as we had a good plan worked out and then lost him in the last few hours of the day. Stupid Town beating the Scum. How could you?

[Darkdragon]

Scouty, on 19 November 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

(2 your role claim of tracker had several holes in it (also the fact that saying you tracked WBD and that he killed Etzel is so see through

I never said that i saw him kill Etzel, i only said i saw him target Etzel.

Anyway, yeah I've already admitted my roleclaim was flawed - it was my first time, give me a break.