Cost of producing new parts?

[Saberwing40k]

This is a bit related to the new Cuusoo rule changes, but there's also a bit of curiosity.

How much does a new Lego part cost to make, from design to new mold?

Would there be any cost savings if the part were fan suggested, and already had a CAD file of some sort?

[Meatman]

I watched a video that said that money was saved because test molds were no longer required since the introduction of 3D printers and that molds ranged from anywhere between $10,000 to $250,000 USD. However It didn't state whether or not this cost involved any development of the new part. At this high cost, I assumed that it did.

[GregoryBrick]

Would there be any cost savings if the part were fan suggested, and already had a CAD file of some sort?

I strongly doubt it, as you'd have to know the actual file type as well as the standards for LEGO element design, including tolerances, structural issues, molding issues, and more, I imagine. Otherwise they'd have to redo it all anyway, wouldn't they? Not to mention that they don't solicit ideas like this for a number of other reasons.

[CopMike]

Here´s a blog about injection molds that gives you quite an insite.

[Legogal]

Wow, Mikey! That is enough info (about injection molds) to kill a cow!

[Faefrost]

This is a bit related to the new Cuusoo rule changes, but there's also a bit of curiosity.

How much does a new Lego part cost to make, from design to new mold?

Would there be any cost savings if the part were fan suggested, and already had a CAD file of some sort?

Regarding the CAD file, the savings would be virtually nil. Actually a user provided CAD design would probably increase costs as TLG designers would have to go back in and re validate every part of it. Lego parts, particularly Structural Elements with high degrees of connectivity, have an extremely high threshold of design precision. The degree of engineering in a simple 2x4 brick is really quite astonishing. When we complain about the differences between Lego parts and clone brands. This is the root of it. The design precision and the mold process and quality.

As far as mold and tooling costs? I've been realistically quoted anywhere between $50,000 and $300,000 for just the tooling. With any Lego structural or building elements on the higher end of that. The lower end costs are things like very short run minifig parts that typically only have a single point of connection. Things like the rubbery soft hairpieces or the artists paintbrush and that do not need to fully conform to the Lego System rules. The costs increase based on the number of parts needed (how long do you expect the mold to last? How many cycles?) the type temperature and pressure of the plastic being used? The precision requirements of the parts being produced? What are the tolerances? And how complicated is the part itself? What are the release needs? How complex must the mold be?

An example of what is probably fairly lower cost mold would be the CMF Librarian's book. It looks like it is a simple flat 2 piece mold that uses a softer plastic, and it has no connection points to any Lego system connectors. The only thing that would increase its cost is printing. I would guess that at the higher end are any of the ABS construction elements. With larger plates probably being among the worst. They require so much precision and so much care in design to prevent things like part warping (hello Megabloks)

It's my understanding that some of the bottom end development costs have come down, as they can now use 3d printers for prototyping and testing instead of more complicated test molding. But the costs of the actual production molds are still quite high. But also remember that for a company like Lego, the molds are the business. They are the principle asset. The primary capital expense.

[Aanchir]

An example of what is probably fairly lower cost mold would be the CMF Librarian's book. It looks like it is a simple flat 2 piece mold that uses a softer plastic, and it has no connection points to any Lego system connectors. The only thing that would increase its cost is printing. I would guess that at the higher end are any of the ABS construction elements. With larger plates probably being among the worst. They require so much precision and so much care in design to prevent things like part warping (hello Megabloks)

Actually, I'd say the MOST expensive molds (not counting pre-assembled parts like motors) would be things that require not only high precision, but also several different moving "sliders" in addition to the typical two-piece mold. BIONICLE had several examples like this one (the mold would require at least five sections), although sometimes it was fascinating to look at certain BIONICLE part designs to see how elegantly the designers avoided the need for sliders to reduce the overall cost of the molds. There are fewer of these nowadays, but some minifigure headgear that needs molded detail on every side could still be quite expensive, all things considered.

Keep in mind also that in addition to the cost of producing a new mold, actually USING one includes additional costs including maintenance and the amount of floor space that production takes up. One of the main reasons that CMF parts are produced in China is actually for the amount of available floor space. The existing LEGO factories were already committed to producing parts for existing themes and just didn't have enough machines and floor space to spare to produce the large variety of parts needed for the collectible minifigures. Producing a new piece, whether that be a new mold or just a recolor, means you're using machines and floor space that could be used for another, more versatile piece.

And regarding LEGO Cuusoo specifically, the reason new molds are infeasible is not that the cost of the parts themselves would be any higher, but that the sets aren't being produced in enough quantities to subsidize that cost. This is why there can be so many new molds in the CMFs — those are being produced in HUGE quantities. In contrast, event-exclusive minifigures like the ones distributed at Comic-Con are produced in very small quantities, and thus NEVER get new molds of any kind unless those are already being produced for standard-release sets.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aanchir

[Faefrost]

And regarding LEGO Cuusoo specifically, the reason new molds are infeasible is not that the cost of the parts themselves would be any higher, but that the sets aren't being produced in enough quantities to subsidize that cost. This is why there can be so many new molds in the CMFs — those are being produced in HUGE quantities. In contrast, event-exclusive minifigures like the ones distributed at Comic-Con are produced in very small quantities, and thus NEVER get new molds of any kind unless those are already being produced for standard-release sets.

It isn't just the quantities of the CMF's. It's the margin. In a normal set you really can't use 30%+ of the sets retail price to fund a new part. But that kind of cost is pretty much built into the CMF's.

[Lego Otaku]

I think the single most complex is the dice. 6 sided studs in a hollow frame, then having rubber injected to fill the void and making edges so it won't make a racket when it's thrown.

I think it was mentioned on a documentary about LEGO factory that the dice is a 2 step process in a single mold. Makes the plastic frame, then roll it down to the rubber mold.

[Faefrost]

I think the single most complex is the dice. 6 sided studs in a hollow frame, then having rubber injected to fill the void and making edges so it won't make a racket when it's thrown.

I think it was mentioned on a documentary about LEGO factory that the dice is a 2 step process in a single mold. Makes the plastic frame, then roll it down to the rubber mold.

That is complicated, but not that unusual these days. It requires a complex mechanism, but not as high a degree of precision as some of the other parts. It's just a more modern molding mechanism. That second injection of rubber just needs to void fill. Not have multipoint connections. If you want to see some wild high tech Injection Molding tech take a look at Bandai of Japan. Their ability to cast multiple colors is astonishing.

[Bobskink]

I'm no real expert, but I have difficulties believing a new part costs that mush. I cast my own designer toys, so I more or less know how this proces goes.

And even if new parts would cost more than usual, to live up to the Lego standards. They save money were other toy companies, who make new parts on a regular basis, loose money. For example, Lego doesn't need to be assembled in the factory, like other toys do, they only need to print a minority of the parts, most parst are a single colour....

I'm not buying this excuse to change Cuusoo policy.

[Aanchir]

I'm no real expert, but I have difficulties believing a new part costs that mush. I cast my own designer toys, so I more or less know how this proces goes.

And even if new parts would cost more than usual, to live up to the Lego standards. They save money were other toy companies, who make new parts on a regular basis, loose money. For example, Lego doesn't need to be assembled in the factory, like other toys do, they only need to print a minority of the parts, most parst are a single colour....

I'm not buying this excuse to change Cuusoo policy.

The idea that set proposals on LEGO Cuusoo can't have new parts is not a change in policy — it's been established for several review cycles. No project that absolutely needed new molds was going to pass review in any event, and any proposal that used new molds would have to have them substituted for existing molds in order to stand a chance in review. The "change" is that they're now expressly prohibiting new part proposals or proposals that use custom or third-party elements — in other words, they're basically trying to prevent people from getting their hopes up about projects that would have no chance of passing review and becoming actual LEGO products in their current form.

I understand that this is a disappointment and that it would have saved you and a lot of other LEGO fans a lot of trouble if this policy were in place from the very beginning. But this is part of the reason why LEGO Cuusoo is still in open beta — even the people creating and running the platform are still learning what the platform is or isn't capable of. Early on, perhaps they thought that new molds would be a minor setback, but it turned out that was not the case. Then, perhaps they thought that it would still be just fine to allow new molds in projects as long as the set designers redesigned the models to do without them during review — but it turned out THAT strategy just slowed down the review process and led to Cuusoo users having unrealistic standards for what kind of project would be achievable.

And while LEGO does save money compared to some other companies — which probably plays a role in how they can have as many molds as they do — this does not change the fact that LEGO Cuusoo products are simply not produced in large enough batches to offset the cost of new molds. In many other themes, new molds are common practice, but that's because those sets are being produced in batches of half a million sets at minimum, while Cuusoo sets are produced in batches of 10,000—20,000. In other words, even the smallest initial batch for a standard LEGO set will be 25 times the size of the largest initial batch of a new Cuusoo set.

So let's suppose, for argument's sake, that a single new LEGO mold costs $100,000 (The LEGO Group keeps the exact cost of their new molds a secret, but this post by Mark Stafford, a LEGO designer, suggests that a cost of $100,000 per mold severely underestimates the actual cost of a LEGO mold). In that case, if half a million sets or more are produced that use that mold, that mold is adding at most twenty cents to the production cost of each individual set. That doesn't even count the possibility of that mold being used in multiple sets (as most new molds are designed for), which will reduce the production costs of each individual set even further. In contrast, if 20,000 sets or fewer are produced using that new mold, the cost of that single mold adds at least five dollars to the production cost of each individual set.

If you're not convinced, you're not convinced, but the reality is that it boils down to simple math. A model that is only going to be produced in small batches, but which absolutely needs new and specialized molds, is not a sound business case. It will be safer, and clearer to project creators, to prohibit new molds entirely than to accept some projects with new molds and reject others on a case-by-case basis according to the perceived usefulness of those molds.

[dr_spock]

Isn't there also safety testing in the new part process? Is that included in the cost of the mold?

[Faefrost]

Isn't there also safety testing in the new part process? Is that included in the cost of the mold?

It depends on if they are talking about the costs of new tooling or costs of new parts. The second would include any needed testing etc. but is the more minimal expense... Unless electronics are involved in which case it becomes astronomical. (Ever notice the first page of the instructions in any set containing a light brick or sound brick? Yeah it's that crazy.)

[Faefrost]

I'm no real expert, but I have difficulties believing a new part costs that mush. I cast my own designer toys, so I more or less know how this proces goes.

And even if new parts would cost more than usual, to live up to the Lego standards. They save money were other toy companies, who make new parts on a regular basis, loose money. For example, Lego doesn't need to be assembled in the factory, like other toys do, they only need to print a minority of the parts, most parst are a single colour....

I'm not buying this excuse to change Cuusoo policy.

There is a world of difference between home made resin casting and creating injection mold tooling for the worlds largest Injection Plastic company. Your molds probably last for about 100-200 shots before product quality starts to deteriorate. But since your molds themselves are simply negative castings, you can simply remake them from the masters. If you were to ramp up to a more formalized "garage kit" business using pressure vessels to cast and professionally done molds from your masters you might be looking at $1000 to $5000 investment in molds or tooling per several thousand pieces of product. Most of those "limited run resin kits" you see, where they only make 2000 pieces. That's because that is how many good shots they expect to get off of their molds.

How much do you think a custom milled engine block for a professional race car costs? Not a standard cast or forged engine block that they then modify or mill out. But rather the high end prototypes that are milled from a block of steel? Lego molds are closely akin to that. They are often made of the hardest most durable steel. With complicated custom engineered heating and cooling systems. Specialized gating and release mechanisms. Etc. If you have ever seen a Lego mold, they are about the size, shape and weight of a car engine. The molds are in fact the complicated and expensive part of the Injection Molding machines.

But it isn't a big deal. It's all economies of scale. Spending $300,000 on new tooling is fine if you are anticipating using it to make 10's or 100's of millions of pieces of product with it. That is in fact Lego's core business model. (And remember not all new tooling is new parts. They are also constantly replacing older tooling as it wears out.) Spending $50,000 on a more specialized mold is fine if you see a clear path to needing hundreds of thousands of parts. But $50,000+ for 20,000 parts is a no go.

[tomdobs55]

What about releasing parts in new colors? For instance, established parts like the tree leaves.

[Faefrost]

What about releasing parts in new colors? For instance, established parts like the tree leaves.

Existing parts in new colors is a much less onerous task. But one that, for business control and sanity reasons, Lego does place some artificial restrictions on. Existing parts in new colors does have some costs. Basically they require factory run time and storage and handling. And factory run time is a very limited and precious commodity. It's obviously cheaper where possible to use parts already in the warehouse stockpiled than it is to create a new part SKU and schedule factory time. Not to mention figuring out which factory currently has the needed molds (they move around) vs where the set needing them is being made, etc. so new colored parts involve a lot more logistics and logistical and production expenses. But not the huge capital expenses that outright new parts require.

After the business craziness that culminated in 2003's near bankruptcy TLG also took steps to maintain better process control. Part of this is by limiting the overall sizes of the part color pallet and the current active part library at any given time. So new colors will add to a designers development budget and force them to assess how much something is really needed etc. we as MOC'ers have an advantage over TLG set designers. We have access and use of any part ever made. They are restricted to that active library of parts and colors. And often for something to be added to that, something else must be retired or removed.

The exception to all of this is if the new color has restrictions involving the type of plastic. So not every mold can handle trans clear polycarbonates and such. It would have needed to be designed for it. Or parts intended for chrome require specialized molds as the parts are a hair smaller to allow for the addition of the chrome (yes the precision and the tolerances are that tight.)

[Bobskink]

....snip... If you're not convinced, you're not convinced, but the reality is that it boils down to simple math. A model that is only going to be produced in small batches, but which absolutely needs new and specialized molds, is not a sound business case. It will be safer, and clearer to project creators, to prohibit new molds entirely than to accept some projects with new molds and reject others on a case-by-case basis according to the perceived usefulness of those molds.

They alowed my project when I sumited it, so I naturaly presumed it was okay. I don't know the old rules, but I do remeber, that you could submit idea's for new parts.

The fact that they will be removing the projects is what really bothers me. I've spend a lot of time and dedication in my project, like many others. Like many of these others I'm not into it for the almost impossible to reach 10.000 votes, or the 1%. I didn't even asked my friends or famlity to support (yet). I just wanted to have my project be seen by fans and the Lego people themself.

As a comment on the cost of making new parts VS the limited sales of Cuusoo projects. I'm sure they can make those new, special parts (which are head or headgear most of the time) in a less expensive way, same quality, but not with expensive everlasting molds. The clone brands do it, those webshops like Brickarms do it.

I just think it's more of an excuse that they are sick of another Cuusoo set with an unreleased Star Wars character.

[AndyC]

They alowed my project when I sumited it, so I naturaly presumed it was okay. I don't know the old rules, but I do remeber, that you could submit idea's for new parts.

You could submit anything, but their guidelines always recommended your avoided things that relied on entirely new parts, that you focus on single sets rather than themes and that you kept the idea within reasonable limits in terms of likely cost etc. In many ways I think they were trying to be too open, because the last thing anyone wanted was for Cuusoo to be too constrained, dissuading good and plausible ideas for no good reason. The practicalities of real world business come into play eventually though and some things just weren't ever going to be viable within the scope of Cuusoo. It has to be better in the long run to make that clear up front.

The fact that they will be removing the projects is what really bothers me. I've spend a lot of time and dedication in my project, like many others. Like many of these others I'm not into it for the almost impossible to reach 10.000 votes, or the 1%. I didn't even asked my friends or famlity to support (yet). I just wanted to have my project be seen by fans and the Lego people themself.

Thing is, Cuusoo is not meant to be a way to showcase your models, there are plenty of ways to do that already, including officially provided Lego sites. Filling the site with ideas that can't ever go into production doesn't help anyone, it wastes time and money in the Lego review process, it gets fan hopes up for no reason and ends up generating a lot of negative feeling that just never needed to happen.

As a comment on the cost of making new parts VS the limited sales of Cuusoo projects. I'm sure they can make those new, special parts (which are head or headgear most of the time) in a less expensive way, same quality, but not with expensive everlasting molds. The clone brands do it, those webshops like Brickarms do it.

I know that I, and suspect that many others, would not want to see Cuusoo just become an avenue for cheap knock-off quality sets with the Lego branding. It cheapens the overall product and diminishes the overall expectations of what you get when you buy Lego products. How would you feel if you bought a bunch of Lego bricks from Bricklink and they were all low quality parts because they'd come from a Cuusoo set and low quality was considered acceptable there?

As to the figure only projects, like yours (which btw I supported as they were great) I think many people are overlooking another issue with them. Such projects were inevitably for licensed characters, but people were voting on the designs as they saw them, leaving TLG very little scope for redesign without stepping well away from what had originally been proposed. If, for example, your Batman and Robin had reached 10,000 votes and gone under review, DC Comics might have decided that the 60s style wasn't what they wanted and insisted that the Duplo figures instead looked like whatever Batman cartoon incarnation they were currently pushing.

So then TLG would be stuck with either releasing something that looked nothing like the proposal or failing it for no real reason other than they had no market knowledge of how the idea would be received, in which case all the prep work with licensing would have gone to waste. It's simply a no win situation for them. The complaints over the DeLorean redesign probably highlighted just how much voters were expecting a product that looks pretty much identical to what was originally proposed, something which may well end up influencing just how much Lego designers can adapt a design before just having to reject it on the grounds it has to change more than is liable to be acceptable by the community.

[Bobskink]

...

I know that I, and suspect that many others, would not want to see Cuusoo just become an avenue for cheap knock-off quality sets with the Lego branding. It cheapens the overall product and diminishes the overall expectations of what you get when you buy Lego products. How would you feel if you bought a bunch of Lego bricks from Bricklink and they were all low quality parts because they'd come from a Cuusoo set and low quality was considered acceptable there?

...

I'll only reply on this because we are both going to offtopic. I didn't ment that all Cuusoo sets should be "low" quality, just the special part could be. Anyway, you've given some understandable arguments, but I can't really say that I changed my mind. But it's the way it is, can't do anything about it.

Thanks for the support vote btw, I was making a new Duplo set for Cuusoo, according to the old rules and keeping commercial point of view etc... but two new parts. That is why I'm so mad :)

[Meatman]

They alowed my project when I sumited it, so I naturaly presumed it was okay. I don't know the old rules, but I do remeber, that you could submit idea's for new parts.

I have been following Cuusoo since it went world wide and I remember them saying that projects should not be using parts that don't exist. It seemed that people interpreted their stance differently however. Some said a few parts were ok, some said one part was ok, but Cuusoo seemed to be fairly straight forward about it.

[Faefrost]

As a comment on the cost of making new parts VS the limited sales of Cuusoo projects. I'm sure they can make those new, special parts (which are head or headgear most of the time) in a less expensive way, same quality, but not with expensive everlasting molds. The clone brands do it, those webshops like Brickarms do it.

I just think it's more of an excuse that they are sick of another Cuusoo set with an unreleased Star Wars character.

Umm? They do use lower quality shorter life span molds for unique character heads. Those are some of the lower cost molds described above. That make the softer headpieces that feel like old chewing gum. Of course those costs doesn't include special painting. They are generally used for very unusual or shorter run retail set distribution such as a limited number of Star Wars sets. (PLO Kool and Kit Fisto are probably good examples.) CuuSoo is still outside the ballpark to amortize those costs. They would still need predictable distribution and amortization through several hundred thousand sets to be viable.

And that more than anything is the kicker. Predictability. CuuSoo is designed for crowd sourced experimental projects. So the ability to predict volumes is very limited and more akin to ouija than actual data analysis. And without clean predictability they (nor really any sane company) will not invest in new tooling.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Faefrost

[Lyichir]

Umm? They do use lower quality shorter life span molds for unique character heads. Those are some of the lower cost molds described above. That make the softer headpieces that feel like old chewing gum. Of course those costs doesn't include special painting. They are generally used for very unusual or shorter run retail set distribution such as a limited number of Star Wars sets. (PLO Kool and Kit Fisto are probably good examples.) CuuSoo is still outside the ballpark to amortize those costs. They would still need predictable distribution and amortization through several hundred thousand sets to be viable.

And that more than anything is the kicker. Predictability. CuuSoo is designed for crowd sourced experimental projects. So the ability to predict volumes is very limited and more akin to ouija than actual data analysis. And without clean predictability they (nor really any sane company) will not invest in new tooling.

I have to correct you about the softer plastic. That is not used so that less expensive molds can be produced, for the most part. It's primarily used specifically for the properties of that plastic. Part of the reason it's often used on specialized head molds is that it is not as brittle and thus can be used to make long, thin or sharp protruding segments that would otherwise be too fragile (like Kit Fisto's tentacles, Yoda's ears, or the spiky Exo-Force hairpieces). If those parts were molded with the standard ABS, these parts could snap off during production (costing the Lego Group money) or worse, when a child is playing with them (potentially creating a safety hazard if the edge that is left is sharp and/or jagged). This is also why you see sharper details on the CMF spear (with the soft tip) than on the classic spear (which itself was remolded with softer plastic for the Hero Factory theme).

[Dayton]

I saw on a Lego Documentary about how they make/produce Lego products and get them from the moulds to the store shelfs. Threw out the documentary it showed a team developing the the Dog for the 7498 set. They said that it cost quarters of a million euros to make a new mould. Just think about how many new moulds come out in CMF and new sets.

[Faefrost]

I saw on a Lego Documentary about how they make/produce Lego products and get them from the moulds to the store shelfs. Threw out the documentary it showed a team developing the the Dog for the 7498 set. They said that it cost quarters of a million euros to make a new mould. Just think about how many new moulds come out in CMF and new sets.

It's staggering for us. Because we think of it as an outright expense. For TLG if done properly it is an amortized capital expense. Essentially they take out a mortgage for each new or replacement mold or piece of tooling. And the tooling will, if amortized and specc'ed properly, pay itself off over time. Remember for TLG Molds = Product = Profit. The trick is they only do this when the math allows them to make more with the mold than it costs. It's similar to buying a house that you can actually afford vs buying a million dollar mansion on credit while working at Burger King.

This recent Ninjago line has I believe 6 new molds exclusive to the line (plus uses a few more new structural parts that are spread across multiple lines.) Ninjago has 8 sets out now. Each set is probably easily seeing a production run of between 500,000 to 1 million. Figure if the new part budget for Ninjago sets was 10% of the retail price (or 1c per piece additional if you will), then they are looking at around $8 million USD to play with for new tooling across the line.

The Collectable minifigs while costing less have an insane margin (highest price per part or volume of plastic of any Lego product line I believe? Plus some inordinately low handling costs for Lego. The value of goods compared to the shipping volume and shelf space requirements of CMF's are really really good for them. ). Plus since the new parts are a substantial part of the line, they are probably looking at a parts budget of ~ 20-33% of the retail price. Say $1 per fig goes to new parts. That adds up pretty quick.

Compare that to CuuSoo? People still will balk at paying much above 12 cents or so per piece. (and 1% is already gone from the top). With the smaller limited run production runs of 10,000 to 20,000 then at a 10% new parts budget you would only be getting back a couple of thousand. Not enough for the tooling, while at the same time more than enough to effectively decrease the sets perceived value to the customers. It's a nice dream. But the math just doesn't work with the way CuuSoo currently operates.