Females in Bionicle

[TheGreatSpirit]

Alright, so a LOT of people passionately believe that there should be more females in a rebooted Bionicle. While I don't care all too much about such a thing, I do see it as a big issue for others.

Therefore, I decided to make a topic about it.

A common complaint is about the monogender tribes, which is something I actually understand.

List of all male tribes (MU):

Fire

Air

Stone

Earth

The Green

Sonics

Iron

Magnetism

Ice

Gravity

List of all female tribes (MU):

Water

Psionics

Lightning

Yeah... that's quite the difference there

I think that there should be more tribes that are primarily female, and that each tribe should have a small, but notable, amount of exceptions in this regard.

So, what are your guys thoughts on the Male/Female ratio in Bionicle? And how do you think it should change when it (maybe) returns?

[CabooseBM]

I think that the "rule" is silly and would like to see it gone, but that's not the real problem, I don't think, since LEGO didn't improve after they lifted that rule in the Glatorian and Hero Factory. This is a problem LEGO has had for a while and will continue to have for a while longer, I'm afraid.

I hope that with Friends and the next LEGO Movie explicitly stated to "include more female characters" that we'll see a paradigm shift back towards LEGO being a unisex toy, taking Bionicle with it.

Ideally all toys would be considered "unisex". One day we can have a tea party with Tahu and Claire and then go fight the Rock Lords, and that day will be great.

[Chro]

Down with gender lines in Bionicle! They serve no purpose at all!

While we're on the topic... I've been told that Bo-Matoran were supposed to be female but were instead made male by a typo (probably something relating to gender pronouns describing that Bo-Toa guarding the Makoki Stone, though I'm not sure). Was that something that actually happened or just wishful thinking?

[Aanchir]

I think that the "rule" is silly and would like to see it gone, but that's not the real problem, I don't think, since LEGO didn't improve after they lifted that rule in the Glatorian and Hero Factory. This is a problem LEGO has had for a while and will continue to have for a while longer, I'm afraid.

Depends what kind of "improvement" you're hoping for. Personally, I feel that while the Glatorian and Hero Factory heroes utterly failed to improve gender ratios in the sets, they did improve freedom for fans to create their own characters. And when we're dealing with a creative toy like LEGO, I honestly feel like that's a factor just as important as what genders the characters have in the official sets and story.

But LEGO was never really a "unisex toy". Let's not make that mistake. The toy industry was already fairly gendered by the time LEGO bricks emerged on the scene. While the LEGO Group certainly tried to promote their brand as a toy for both girls and boys in the early days, I think that the public was already somewhat inclined to perceive construction toys as a "boyish" interest (especially since older construction toys like Erector were marketed specifically toward boys). Hence why the LEGO Group made attempts to market specifically girl-oriented toys as far back as 1971 with their somewhat regrettably titled Homemaker theme. Even before that, there were a lot of boys pictured on the packaging for sets, and not nearly as many girls.

I do not think it is in the LEGO Group's interest to abandon gendered marketing altogether. I do think, however, that the LEGO Group should try to cover a full spectrum of gendered interests, from toys that are targeted specifically at boys and specifically at girls to whatever blend of demographics might be found somewhere in between. Look at The LEGO Movie as an example of one of these "in-between" themes. Despite being unequivocally girly in its subject matter, other than the minifigures, 70803 Cloud Cuckoo Palace has demonstrated amazing sales strength. In fact, I feel like most story-driven themes have the potential for this kind of cross-demographic appeal, because good storytelling is something people of any gender can appreciate. In an interview earlier this year, Dan and Kevin Hageman (the writers for the LEGO Ninjago TV series) estimate that around 30% of the show's audience is female, and I feel like this is something the LEGO Group should seek to capitalize on with the theme's set designs and storytelling.

Furthermore, I think society is evolving. Boys are already responding better to female protagonists in media than conventional wisdom might dictate. Soon enough, that willingness to accept and even identify with characters of the opposite sex might extend to the toy aisle. And this is a factor that I think merits a better approach to sex and gender in BIONICLE. Even if the LEGO Group doesn't include a lot of female characters in the theme's sets and supplementary media to start, they should avoid placing limits on what gender fan characters or their own characters can have. Because if a boy or girl wants to create a female fire Toa or a male water Toa, they shouldn't have to feel like those creations are directly at odds with the official storyline. And in case it turns out that girls and boys DO respond better to female characters than the LEGO Group anticipated, the LEGO Group shouldn't write themselves into a corner that makes it difficult to adapt their marketing strategy.

[Dorek]

Down with gender lines in Bionicle! They serve no purpose at all!

While we're on the topic... I've been told that Bo-Matoran were supposed to be female but were instead made male by a typo (probably something relating to gender pronouns describing that Bo-Toa guarding the Makoki Stone, though I'm not sure). Was that something that actually happened or just wishful thinking?

I don't remember hearing that at all (then again, I'm STILL getting used to them being "Bo-Matoran"...), but we'd probably be looking at another Orde debacle if so. Might have been something Greg mentioned offhand in the LMB topic, but to the best of my knowledge that was never really going to be the case.

[TwistLaw]

Personally, I feel that while the Glatorian and Hero Factory heroes utterly failed to improve gender ratios in the sets, they did improve freedom for fans to create their own characters.

I'd love to hear an explanation about that point, since I think both, especially the latter, just threw at us characters over characters without giving us any better inspiration than BIONICLE did since its beginning.

I even think that the undisputedly shallow story of Hero Factory underlined the "here's a robot, buy it" aspect of LEGO constraction figures; on the other hand BIONICLE tried somehow to give a more or less intriguing story able to fire up the imagination of a kid.

In short, how did HF improve the freedom for fans to create their own characters?

[Aanchir]

I'd love to hear an explanation about that point, since I think both, especially the latter, just threw at us characters over characters without giving us any better inspiration than BIONICLE did since its beginning.

I even think that the undisputedly shallow story of Hero Factory underlined the "here's a robot, buy it" aspect of LEGO constraction figures; on the other hand BIONICLE tried somehow to give a more or less intriguing story able to fire up the imagination of a kid.

In short, how did HF improve the freedom for fans to create their own characters?

Because you could create any character with any gender and any powers and there was absolutely nothing in the official story saying your character could not exist in that universe. In fact, on the contrary, the Hero Factory storyline began by establishing that there were thousands of heroes on missions all across the galaxy, including providing briefs describing past missions involving various heroes on various teams.

Even if you didn't personally find the storyline inspiring (and I, for one, did), the point is that it did a great job of not actively limiting fans' creative exp<b></b>ression. There were no rigid rules about what kind of powers heroes and villains could or could not have, or about what colors represented a particular power, or about what powers or colors could only belong to a particular gender. You could even send your original hero characters on missions with the canon hero characters and it wouldn't contradict a thing in the official storyline, provided you didn't kill off any canon characters or anything silly like that.

It seems like encouraging fans to create their own characters and stories was a huge factor in how the Hero Factory storyline was set up, judging not only by the creative freedom the official story afforded but also from things like the Hero Factory call center and the Hero Recon Team service that encouraged kids to create and share their original ideas. Even the Hero Factory online gallery included photography tips for sharing your creations, going a step beyond what had been featured on any of the other LEGO.com galleries. Obviously, not all of these things proved successful. Hero Recon Team in particular was no more profitable in the long run than the Design byME service it was based on. But there was still a very clear and concerted effort to encourage fans to express themselves creatively, which is an admirable goal for a LEGO theme.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Aanchir

[Infernum]

In short, how did HF improve the freedom for fans to create their own characters?

Aanchir is saying that because HF and Glatorian didn't have gender specific tribes fans has more freedom to create characters. This is because a fan created Glatorian or hero can be male or female, while a red Toa or Matoran has to be male.

[TwistLaw]

Because you could create any character with any gender and any powers and there was absolutely nothing in the official story saying your character could not exist in that universe. In fact, on the contrary, the Hero Factory storyline began by establishing that there were thousands of heroes on missions all across the galaxy, including providing briefs describing past missions involving various heroes on various teams.

Oh, I perfectly understand now. Thanks for the exhaustive answer.

Reading again my post it looked like I was angered, which of course I was not

Still, it's a shame that all that potential got throwed right into the bin.

[Jetrax99]

It's a damn shame the Constraction line for girls project on Cuusoo never got the max number of votes needed to hit the review stage. I need more official female sets. LEGO, make more!!!

[Aanchir]

It's a damn shame the Constraction line for girls project on Cuusoo never got the max number of votes needed to hit the review stage. I need more official female sets. LEGO, make more!!!

Even if it had, it probably wouldn't have succeeded, since LEGO Ideas can't support new molds or proposals for full themes. It was a good proposal, though. I would be VERY impressed if we ever saw a girl-oriented constraction line.

[MakutaNocturn]

Who cares, we don't even know if we will like the story.

[Kingslayer]

All I know is that when I was a kid I never held against getting a female Toa or character(as Im sure like many others). In fact I would like getting more because it gave my males or female bionicles partners. I never liked how short in supply the girl Bionicles were so I would often make some male characters or undetermined gender ones female. I personally think that while the offficial story line shouldnt change the gender of any of the official cast we should still see more females with new characters.

I think a good ratio would be something like 3:1. Would seem to be perfect to me. Also more female canister villains. I believe we only officially got Gorast in G1

[Bfahome]

A more equal ratio would be nice.

But I'm not getting my hopes up.

[CabooseBM]

On the matter of gender, I wouldn't really like it if the original Toa (or any of the original characters) got their genders changed, simply because that's not how I knew them. However, I'm totally open for new female characters and a better gender ratio. Also, the rule that one element has exclusively male or female members was pretty stupid in my opinion, but I'm glad they got rid of that for the Bara Magna storyline (where there was still a great lack of female characters, though).

-Gata

I used to think that too, that the Toa Mata shouldn't be changed, but at some point I realized that they're going to get design changes anyway, and I really wasn't too attached to their current genders. This isn't really meant to be an argument, but given that the Toa Mata will get new designs anyway, why do you hold their genders to be more important for new iterations? What about say, Tahu being a woman would really change about her, all else being equal? Would that really ruin the nostalgia more than a new design?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything or start a fight, but I think it's worth asking ourselves these questions and exploring why we have that sticking point.

EDIT: You know, apparently Thor is a woman in some new Marvel comic, anyone more knowledgeable in Marvel stuff want to expand on that? I think it's rather applicable to what we're talking about here.

Edited July 17, 2014 by CabooseBM

[the last chronicler]

My TLDR from the 2015 topic: I'll be fine with (and it makes sense economically) to keep the sets demographically accurate with a majority of male sets, but don't limit kids imagination with single-gender biomes. Lego should be inclusive of all genders and people, without the real-world social baggage that those genders and groups entail (also Bionicle beings are mostly mechanical, so I don't think romance is necessary). This is a toy, it helps us/kids escape reality without losing identity.

[Aanchir]

My TLDR from the 2015 topic: I'll be fine with (and it makes sense economically) to keep the sets demographically accurate with a majority of male sets, but don't limit kids imagination with single-gender biomes. Lego should be inclusive of all genders and people, without the real-world social baggage that those genders and groups entail (also Bionicle beings are mostly mechanical, so I don't think romance is necessary). This is a toy, it helps us/kids escape reality without losing identity.

Agreed for the most part, but while I don't think romance is necessary in the storyline, I also don't think it should be expressly prohibited. Even in the old BIONICLE, the little bits of romance we got (like Hewkii and Macku's relationship, or Matau's desperate flirting with Nokama) could be very cute or funny. And to be honest, I almost feel like the only reason Greg Farshtey was insistent on romance being non-canon was that he didn't want to have to deal with shipping-related questions as part of his day-to-day interactions with fans. Certainly he didn't hesitate to keep Matau's flirty characterization in the books and comics consistent with what it was in the movies, and there were also other parts of the books that could very easily be interpreted as romantic subtext. As a writer, I hardly think he was oblivious to that.

I don't think the fact that BIONICLE characters are mostly mechanical really has any bearing on whether romance should be allowed. After all, this is a kids' franchise. It's not like any biological component of romance would ever be likely to come up anyway. But romance as a social construct gives you another level on which you can potentially relate to the characters. Even Hero Factory didn't have any rules against romance, and most of the characters in that franchise are completely mechanical. For that matter, one of the current romantic subplots in LEGO Ninjago involves two completely mechanical characters: Zane and P.I.X.A.L.

[Dorek]

I feel like the flirty subtexts were more of an overarching thing and that Greg didn't have much say in them (and I don't remember nearly as much of that behavior in the comics). And personally, I wasn't a big fan; it came off as very forced. Hewkii and Makau, on the other hand, were adorable.

And even HF has had some pointed mentions of romance; Breez (as the token female, natch) is always telling the media that she has no romantic interest in any of her male teammates, though that doesn't stop Nex from having an unrequited crush. I think that in and of itself was actually fairly well handled; it's an interesting slice of self-examination by way of critique of the media (and shippers).

As for the female Thor, it's an apparently pre-existing character who is taking "Thor" as a title, because the actual Thor is no longer worthy of wielding Mjolnir (but he's still around, and will have his own series as well). So not necessarily a gender-bend, but interesting nonetheless.

[Lord-Vorahk]

I have to say that the gender issue has bothered me a few times in the past. I built a black and lime female character once (Unfortunately, needing the parts for other MOCs and the ever-crumbling lime pieces meant that she's since been dismantled), and ended up thinking "What can I make her element?"

One of the big problems, though, was that every single female tribe was freaking blue! Water, yes. Psionics, okay, maybe. Blue and gold was a cool colour scheme, I can see why they would want to use it again, and what other colour would you make them? Okay so it could've been any colour + gold, and maybe black + gold or red + gold would have looked better. But eh, blue and gold is as good as any. Lightning, though? Why? WHy is lightning white and blue? WHy not white and black? Or white and yellow? Or yellow and black? Why did they ahve to throw blue in? Because of their over-use of blue in female characters, if you make a female Toa/Matoran with any colour scheme other than blue, you end up with something that either doesn't fit into canon, or she has to be a disguised Av-Toa.

Limiting creativity like that doesn't seem very LEGO-ish. But eh, from now on, if I want a female Toa of Fire, or Ice, or Air, then I'll build one.

[Logan McOwen]

Well at least this iteration of the discussion is less heated then that of Tumblr... But anyway, moving on.

I'm one of those people who likes the idea of each 'Koro' being of mixed genders. While I really enjoyed the idea of a race of blue lady robots when I was little (it struck me as something like the Amazons), I think more diversity across each clan would be a lot more balanced. Especially seeing as about 80% of each element consisted of male possessors. But I'm not going to attribute that to 'ermahgerd grergs er serxerst' or 'muh patriachy' or anything - it was a toy, developed in the late 90s/early 00s, for boys. It was guaranteed to have a crummy gender ratio as soon as it was decided to be for boys. And you know what? I accept that. Whatever. Moving on to the future now. Beepity booper.

[Kingslayer]

Agreed for the most part, but while I don't think romance is necessary in the storyline, I also don't think it should be expressly prohibited. Even in the old BIONICLE, the little bits of romance we got (like Hewkii and Macku's relationship, or Matau's desperate flirting with Nokama) could be very cute or funny. And to be honest, I almost feel like the only reason Greg Farshtey was insistent on romance being non-canon was that he didn't want to have to deal with shipping-related questions as part of his day-to-day interactions with fans. Certainly he didn't hesitate to keep Matau's flirty characterization in the books and comics consistent with what it was in the movies, and there were also other parts of the books that could very easily be interpreted as romantic subtext. As a writer, I hardly think he was oblivious to that.

I don't think the fact that BIONICLE characters are mostly mechanical really has any bearing on whether romance should be allowed. After all, this is a kids' franchise. It's not like any biological component of romance would ever be likely to come up anyway. But romance as a social construct gives you another level on which you can potentially relate to the characters. Even Hero Factory didn't have any rules against romance, and most of the characters in that franchise are completely mechanical. For that matter, one of the current romantic subplots in LEGO Ninjago involves two completely mechanical characters: Zane and P.I.X.A.L.

I always liked the idea of romance in Bionicle. As long as it isn't forced I think it generally turns out well. Although I must say I sometimes liked there being no official ships in canon, because I liked to see what ships people would create. I think Ive seen Gali shipped with every single Toa Mata.

[CabooseBM]

The only ship worth sailing is obviously Pohatu and Kopaka. =P

[Lord-Vorahk]

I always liked the idea of romance in Bionicle. As long as it isn't forced I think it generally turns out well. Although I must say I sometimes liked there being no official ships in canon, because I liked to see what ships people would create. I think Ive seen Gali shipped with every single Toa Mata.

I made a Tanma/Gavla ship once. I kinda still ship it. And I think there were a few mostly official ships, mainly Hewkii and Macku, and Jaller and Hahli (Seriously, did they share in scene in MoL without flirting?).

[Loki]

I'm one of those people who likes the idea of each 'Koro' being of mixed genders. While I really enjoyed the idea of a race of blue lady robots when I was little (it struck me as something like the Amazons), I think more diversity across each clan would be a lot more balanced. Especially seeing as about 80% of each element consisted of male possessors. But I'm not going to attribute that to 'ermahgerd grergs er serxerst' or 'muh patriachy' or anything - it was a toy, developed in the late 90s/early 00s, for boys. It was guaranteed to have a crummy gender ratio as soon as it was decided to be for boys. And you know what? I accept that. Whatever. Moving on to the future now. Beepity booper.

To be frank, though, whether or not the series was aimed at boys at the inception isn't why people critique it now. A lot of fans point out the terrible gender-ratio as a valid critique in hopes that, perhaps, more female characters would be introduced since there is a notable desire for it to happen. If nobody said a word, kept quiet, didn't make their desires for dimensional and interesting (and not the poor excuses that were handed out in the canon story) female characters then there would be absolutely 0 reason for Lego, or any writer, to even think about altering it. There's a lot of popular media out even now that features a healthy (sometimes unhealthy) male population/female population (Such as: Avatar: The Last Airbender, The Legend of Korra, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic -- even Young Justice, aimed at boys, drew in a much larger female audience than anticipated [Which lead to CN canceling the show, as they claimed "females don't buy product" despite that issue being more their marketing team's fault]).

I can't say I entirely appreciate the strawmen erected in your post, granted critiquing Greg's beyond poor handling of female characters is completely warranted and necessary if the writing is ever going to improve (assuming they re-hire him for writing this new incarnation of Bionicle, and provided he listens to critique). And intention doesn't really matter when it comes to saying something, or writing something, that is sexist.

And... Bionicle doesn't have to be marketed to only boys, it could easily be marketed towards any gender of person, but keeping it "boy-centric," in the manner so many describe on this site, would probably do more to hurt the selling potential of the line (as they're arbitrarily excluding an entire demographic within the target age-range).

[Voxovan]

Wow, I've just came to this topic and I don't really get some people. While I agree with all of you when it comes to the mono-gender tribes problem, the changing of Toa Mata's gender is just a silly idea to me. Yeah, let's make the whole team female except Gali. What's so good about making Tahu or Onua a female? It's just as great idea as making, I don't know, let's say, Optimus Prime or Darth Vader a woman. They're both iconic characters for their series, and they shouldn't be changed that much. The design change is ok, the gender change - not really. Gender-benders are cool in non-serious fan series, but not in the official ones. Seriously, there are some changes that shouldn't be made, ever. You can as well make something like this: "The Great Spirit Maku Ta, betrayed by his brother, Matanui". Yeah, only their names are swapped, but does it seem right to you? I wouldn't mind the change of some of the Matorans' gender that much, but changing the gender of the main characters? No, just no. Of course, new female characters are always welcomed, especially middle-set female villains (I would love to see that). But as I said, there are some changes that shouldn't be made, ever.

The main problem for me is not how many female characters there is, but how they look. Really, the only feminine-looking Bionicle set ever was Roodaka, and still she had too wide shoulders in my opinion. Gali Mata/Nuva and Nokama Metru/Hordika had a pretty neutral look when it comes to gender, so they could be females as well as males (though I don't think that's a good thing either, because it still would make a little confusion). But after 2005 we got all those manly women, like Hahli Inika with a moustache or Gali Mistika with a huge chin. Hahli Mahri was acceptable, but still had too wide shoulders. Gorast also didn't look like a female, at all. The only other feminine-looking set Kiina, but then she had those long monkey arms and ugly shoulders. And with Hero Factory it didn't changed that much, I saw a lot of kids got confused when they found out that Breez is a female. And some of her versions had the same problem as Hahli Inika or Gali Mistika - they just looked manly (I'm looking at you, 2011 Breez).

And I don't want to say that all female characters should have a huge bewbs or butts now, but let's just make them a little more slim, maybe a little shorter, give them narrow shoulders and maybe a torso armor that would resemble female body a little more (I think the 2014 Chima Ultrabuilds torso piece would work perfectly, though I don't know if it's not too big). And please, no mask/helmets with moustache or gigantic chins.

Oh and, even if the new Bionicle line won't fix the mono-gender tribes problem, you can always make your own alternative universe

Edited July 18, 2014 by Voxovan