104 replies to this topic

[Sinner]

Sinner, on Jun 15 2008, 01:17 PM, said:

Age: Eurobricks is a site intended for an adult audience, which for the purpose of these guidelines are people of around the age of 18 or greater. We reserve the right to ban anyone who does not meet that requirement. Posting that you are not an adult is a quick way to be banned. If you choose to ignore these guidelines and sign up anyway, it is not our responsibility if you are offended by what you read or see. Similarly, if you are an adult who is offended by what is often labeled as adult content, you should probably avoid this site.

What does this mean? It means that we're targeting EB for an AFOL age group, not a TFOL one. We try to be flexible on this, but some recent topics make it clear that there is some confusion.

For this reason let me remind people that posting things like that you're 13, saying you need more pocket money or that you have to do your school homework is stupid. We probably won't ban you for it, but it makes it clear that you lied while joining, and that's a bad way to start. Once we've noted this we then know that you're a likely immature member and you will be watched more.

So please, if you're underaged on EB be subtle about it and try to post in a mature fashion. If not we'll ban you according to the guidelines that you agreed to when you joined.



Sorry for the negative nancy post, but posts like this...

Bricktrain, on Dec 30 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

just like Bricklink, they make the rule but dont really care.

...really get on my goat. We do care about all of our guidelines and the next time I read a post that's encouraging people to ignore them that I'll be banning the member instantly just to prove the point.

[Forresto]

Siegfried, on Jan 4 2010, 09:08 PM, said:

What does this mean? It means that we're targeting EB for an AFOL age group, not a TFOL one. We try to be flexible on this, but some recent topics make it clear that there is some confusion.

For this reason let me remind people that posting things like that you're 13, saying you need more pocket money or that you have to do your school homework is stupid. We probably won't ban you for it, but it makes it clear that you lied while joining, and that's a bad way to start. Once we've noted this we then know that you're a likely immature member and you will be watched more.

So please, if you're underaged on EB be subtle about it and try to post in a mature fashion. If not we'll ban you according to the guidelines that you agreed to when you joined.



Sorry for the negative nancy post, but posts like this...


...really get on my goat. We do care about all of our guidelines and the next time I read a post that's encouraging people to ignore them that I'll be banning the member instantly just to prove the point.

I agree! I think also a problem with banning however is that sometimes the person who is underaged and joins is'nt given much of a chance to defend or prove himself. I think that it should'nt be a problem if any underaged member joins EB as long as he remains mature and I don't believe they should flaunt that they're underaged to the whole forum. However that should'nt get them banned neccesarrily. Is'nt Sir Nadorj near that border and look, he's a very respected MOC builder here.

[Sinner]

Forresto, on Jan 5 2010, 12:36 PM, said:

Is'nt Sir Nadorj near that border and look, he's a very respected MOC builder here.

Exactly. That's one reason why we're tolerant. Some TFOLs are very talented, and he's one of the best... and he's always been a good member too.

[Big Cam]

I appreciate this post Siegfried.

It needed to be said.

[Milan]

Big Cam, on Jan 5 2010, 04:29 PM, said:

It needed to be said.

And to be done.

[Corvus]

I am very grateful to have finally entered the acceptable age group. When I first found the site, I spent a week just reading things. There were a lot of very interesting topics with very intelligent conversations, something I've never had the chance to have with Lego. No one I know likes lego. The only other experience I've had with this was Brickcon last year, and I intend to go again (and actually talk to people!!)
I eventually wanted to join and take part, too. When I read the guidelines, though, I saw the age limit and didn't join. Eventually , after a month or so of reading topics like the ones Siegfried mentioned, I went ahead anyway and joined. This was about two years ago, I think. I don't think I was quite as mature as one or two other impressive young posters, and I certainly wasn't nearly as good a builder as them. But, I tried to post intelligently in a forum frequented by adults. I'd like to say I've done well, but there's still some to do, namely branching out into other themes and posting in them, as well as finally coming up with a better, more original name. >.<

[Sinner]

Mr. Smurfalorian, on Jan 7 2010, 01:16 PM, said:

But, I tried to post intelligently in a forum frequented by adults. I'd like to say I've done well

...and you did! You've been a stunning member from the start.

Mr. Smurfalorian, on Jan 7 2010, 01:16 PM, said:

, but there's still some to do, namely branching out into other themes and posting in them, as well as finally coming up with a better, more original name. >.<

If you think of one, just ask Mr. Smurfalorian...

[posades]

Siegfried, on Jan 4 2010, 08:08 PM, said:

saying you need more pocket money or that you have to do your school homework is stupid.

Last time I checked there are some college students above the age of 18 that have both these problems.   Maybe not the best choice of words?

In my opinion rules like this should be black and white; if you start to make an exception here or an exception there, who's to say a 17 year old that isn't an expert MOC-er but brings germane discussion to the table doesn't have a legitimate argument as to why he should be banned as opposed to someone of the same age that might be more creative with the bricks?

Point being, when you start letting someone slide on a rule because of their exceptional status, you open up a whole 'nother can of worms.  If it was me it would be a strict 18+, but of course I'm not running the forums and my opinion matters little.

[Rick]

posades, on Jan 9 2010, 08:14 PM, said:

Point being, when you start letting someone slide on a rule because of their exceptional status, you open up a whole 'nother can of worms.  If it was me it would be a strict 18+, but of course I'm not running the forums and my opinion matters little.

That way you'd miss out on a lot of members that (have the potential to) contribute much to EB, be it in terms of discussions or MOCs. Assuming everyone over 18 can behave in here is equally naive. The staff are generally doing a very good job at deciding who to allow/tolerate and who to ban, both underage and mature members (luckily not everyone over 18 is unconditionally allowed on here).

[CP5670]

posades, on Jan 9 2010, 03:14 PM, said:

Last time I checked there are some college students above the age of 18 that have both these problems.   Maybe not the best choice of words?

In my opinion rules like this should be black and white; if you start to make an exception here or an exception there, who's to say a 17 year old that isn't an expert MOC-er but brings germane discussion to the table doesn't have a legitimate argument as to why he should be banned as opposed to someone of the same age that might be more creative with the bricks?

I agree with this, even though I can see the purpose of EB's rules here. Personally, I would be in favor of removing the age limit altogether, and instead having rules on "sensible posting behavior," with the exact definition of that to be made at the discretion of the moderators. A rule that is not consistently enforced is never going to be taken seriously.

I have been posting on internet forums for a long time and have come across plenty of kids who are quite intelligent, as well as plenty of adults who are complete morons. There is no way to tell anyone's age for sure on the internet, and the age of a person doesn't really matter anyway. The only thing you know (or care) about the person is his behavior on the forum. If that behavior is acceptable, the poster should be allowed to stay, and if not, he should be banned, regardless of age either way.

Edited by CP5670, 09 January 2010 - 08:49 PM.

[Bonaparte]

posades, on Jan 9 2010, 09:14 PM, said:

In my opinion rules like this should be black and white; if you start to make an exception here or an exception there, who's to say a 17 year old that isn't an expert MOC-er but brings germane discussion to the table doesn't have a legitimate argument as to why he should be banned as opposed to someone of the same age that might be more creative with the bricks?

Our rules are black and white, but we are enforcing them based on best judgment on a case by case basis. That the only way to do it on the Internet where anyone can claim he's above 18. However, when someone bluntly posts on our forums he 14, we can't look the other way.

[Sinner]

posades, on Jan 10 2010, 06:14 AM, said:

Last time I checked there are some college students above the age of 18 that have both these problems.   Maybe not the best choice of words?

Picking at my words instead of looking at the meaning behind them is just plain pedantic. College is college, university is university and school is school. I can tell the difference and I stand by my words. Also, please note that 18 is just a guide. We are targeting mature adults. EB is a world site and thus we can't give an exact age for what is an adult. While the generally accepted age for adults is 18, 15-21 is also common, and so is 13 (Jewish). Thus age is just a guideline and we look more at posts. I've known 14 year olds that act more mature than some 25 year olds so IMHO a purely age based criteria (aside from being unenforceable) would be too simplistic.

In short, my point was that unless you're 18, we'd prefer you kept your age to yourself. It's better for you... and it's better for the site as it'll help keep away immature members.

[CP5670]

Quote

College is college, university is university and school is school. I can tell the difference and I stand by my words.

I will say that as a PhD student, I use all three of those words interchangeably in casual discussion, and all the other students I know do the same.

I think the problem here is that the rule as it is officially stated is not clearly reflecting what you actually want to accomplish on the site, and even your first post in this thread is not entirely in line with your subsequent posts. I know from experience that any sort of inconsistency in the rules does unfortunately encourage people to bend them, which is why I expressed the opinion I did earlier. It looks to me that what you ultimately want is sensible and mature behavior, so it may be better to emphasize that point directly and explicitly instead of focusing on the term "adult" (which is ambiguous and confuses the issue) or the particular age of 18 (which as you say is only a rough guideline).

[Sinner]

CP5670, on Jan 14 2010, 03:35 PM, said:

I will say that as a PhD student, I use all three of those words interchangeably in casual discussion, and all the other students I know do the same.

Must be a US thing. I've never known anyone from uni/college to say "School Homework". In that case since I can't prove otherwise (and I have no reason to think you're lying) I stand corrected.

CP5670, on Jan 14 2010, 03:35 PM, said:

I think the problem here is that the rule as it is officially stated is not clearly reflecting what you actually want to accomplish on the site, and even your first post in this thread is not entirely in line with your subsequent posts.

Example please? I don't think I've changed angle, but when I wrote the first post I was in a bit of a hurry and probably was more brief than I should have been.

CP5670, on Jan 14 2010, 03:35 PM, said:

I know from experience that any sort of inconsistency in the rules does unfortunately encourage people to bend them, which is why I expressed the opinion I did earlier.

I agree.

CP5670, on Jan 14 2010, 03:35 PM, said:

It looks to me that what you ultimately want is sensible and mature behavior, so it may be better to emphasize that point directly and explicitly instead of focusing on the term "adult" (which is ambiguous and confuses the issue) or the particular age of 18 (which as you say is only a rough guideline).

You are right there and I've (we've) been working towards that goal. The original rules focused heavily on 18 which didn't reflect our stance. Even so, I do think "adult behaviour" and "mature behaviour" are much the same thing.


To be honest, the guidelines need a revision. I wrote them for the most part, Shadows heavily re-wrote them (and removed some of my favourite parts   ) and the rest of the staff gave suggestions. Over time other things have been added by most of the staff, and other issues have come up that aren't covered. (For example posting in "dead" topics.) However, I for one am concerned that the bigger it gets the less likely it will be actually read, so I'd like it smaller. We have discussed revisions but it's hard to write a good concise one, and since the staff work as a group it takes time to find a happy medium. Thus I can't see any chance of a new one being written anytime soon.

It's a shame we even need them. EB never used to have any rule other than "You must be 18", but it caused problems when people broke the un-written rules. It's be nice to just have rules of "Be mature and use common sense when posting!", but I don't think it's cut it.

(Thanks for your comments.   )

[Dennimator]

Siegfried, on Jan 14 2010, 10:50 AM, said:

Must be a US thing. I've never known anyone from uni/college to say "School Homework". In that case since I can't prove otherwise (and I have no reason to think you're lying) I stand corrected.

Well, it´s not just the US. It´s common to call it 'School Homework' in Sweden as well. It´s not the right tirm, term, but it´s still common.

[Sinner]

Dennimator, on Jan 15 2010, 01:23 AM, said:

Well, it´s not just the US. It´s common to call it 'School Homework' in Sweden as well. It´s not the right tirm, term, but it´s still common.

I've already said that I stand corrected. Pressing the point is just mean.  

[Dennimator]

Siegfried, on Jan 14 2010, 05:14 PM, said:

I've already said that I stand corrected. Pressing the point is just mean.  

Sorry, I just wanted to confirm what he said, not press the point.

[CP5670]

Quote

You are right there and I've (we've) been working towards that goal. The original rules focused heavily on 18 which didn't reflect our stance. Even so, I do think "adult behaviour" and "mature behaviour" are much the same thing.

I think this point is actually the main source of the confusion. I interpret these concepts a little differently, especially in the context of the other things you say. The official rule refers to being "offended" by "adult content," for example. This is not only unlikely to deter kids from joining, but also gives the wrong impression of what the rationale for the rule is, and indeed, the nature of the discussions on EB (which are actually very mild and friendly compared to many other forums I've seen with no age limits). What adds to the confusion is that the examples you gave in the first post of unacceptable behavior, such as stating one's age, are not what most people would consider to be immature or stupid conduct.

After reading your later posts, I see that what you are really trying to accomplish with these examples is to deter stupid lurkers from joining, but perhaps it would be better to simply call for a high standard of posting in the first place. It would make your intentions more clear and allow the enforcement of the rule to be more consistent than it currently is. The official statement of the rule can be still kept short, and maybe you can just include links to a few examples of good posts as well as immature posts from banned members, with the posters' names removed if needed.

Quote

Example please? I don't think I've changed angle, but when I wrote the first post I was in a bit of a hurry and probably was more brief than I should have been.

I was referring to your original statement that a poster saying that they are under 18 would result in a warning or ban because they "lied" about being an adult when they joined. On the other hand, you later said that what you mean by "adult" is someone who exhibits intelligent behavior, and an "adult" could be younger than 18. So the poster did not necessarily lie about anything, and if they were banned it probably wasn't directly because of such a post. As I said earlier, I think this inconsistency is a result of the rule itself and how it is worded.

Of course, these are all just my thoughts on this issue, not a demand to change anything.

[Zarkan]

Siegfried, on Jan 14 2010, 09:50 AM, said:

It's a shame we even need them. EB never used to have any rule other than "You must be 18", but it caused problems when people broke the un-written rules. It's be nice to just have rules of "Be mature and use common sense when posting!", but I don't think it's cut it.

I think this is a natural progression for forums as they grow and gain more members. In the begining, Eurobricks was a lot smaller, and a large percent of the members knew each other fairly well. However, as more people joined and the site became bigger, it got to the point where there were a lot of outsiders joining - people who didn't know the customs of the site as well as people who actually knew the core group in person or on other online places. Now that Eurobricks has thousands of members and is more well known, a single written rule and several unwritten rules probably won't cut it, and a slightly larger set of guidlines would be necessary to regulate the community.

Basically, the way I picture the old Eurobricks versus the new Eurobricks is that the former was just a small club of people that were familiar with one another, while the latter is akin to an Ancient Greek forum where anyone can share their opinions. Another analogy would be that, if Lego was politics, then the early Eurobricks would be a few college students discussing country election in a dorm room, while the new Eurobricks is a major govermental Senate. Since the people in the former are very likely to know and understand each other well, there's no need for any guildines - but in the latter setting, the relationships are far less close, and a few basic rules are necessary to keep the discussion from getting too out-of-control.  

Of course, I wasn't around when Eurobricks was started, so I might be wrong about this, but that is the impression I've gotten as I've learned more about Eurobrick's history. Please correct me if I'm wrong.  

[Peppermint_M]

CP5670, on Jan 15 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

*snip*


I was referring to your original statement that a poster saying that they are under 18 would result in a warning or ban because they "lied" about being an adult when they joined. On the other hand, you later said that what you mean by "adult" is someone who exhibits intelligent behavior, and an "adult" could be younger than 18.
*snip*

Aren't they mutualy exclusive?

If you joined a forum that had a lower age limit of 18 before you were 18 and then posted your real age, wouldn't that be un-intelligent behavior? Then if you compounded that by popping up saying that no one obeys the rule and posting lots of annoying/irrelevant things the moderators would ban you. It would be intelligent and therefore mature behavior if you joined up and carefully avoided mentioning your age and obeyed the other rules as well as you could.

I think we would miss out on a lot of cool MOCs and some intelligent discussion if all under 18s were banned, but we would be flooded with immaturity and foolishness if the age limit was lowered.  

At the moment it seems to be a trickle of unwanted behavior and clearly underage members but to remove an age limit would result in many more.

[Davey]

I can tell you right now that if you remove the age limit, you are just asking for trouble.  We're dealing with a situation over on MOCPages (a site that admittedly is more targeted at kids) where AFOL's are posting MOC's that contain adult humor (with a warning in the title of the MOC) and the younglings are getting all bent out of shape over it because "children browse that site and shouldn't see those type of things".  So my contention is that if you remove the age limit, you will be asking for the same type of trouble over here.  

By keeping this site 18+, it helps us to justify allowing pretty much any discussion or MOC post to be legal.  If someone gripes about a youngling seeing a post, we can point to the 18+ rule and that is the end of it.  I come to EB because it's an adult community where we can have intelligent discussion and not necessarily have to censor ourselves because there are younglings around.  I fully support keeping this site in that format.  As adults, we need an online clubhouse where we can be adults and EB fits the bill perfectly.

Just my $0.02 though.

-Dave

[MetroiD]

Cyclone Breezerider, on Jan 15 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

I can tell you right now that if you remove the age limit, you are just asking for trouble.

Totally true - for so many reasons beyond the "mature content" thing. But since we've touched on that anyway, let me just remind you all of an S/M MOC which was posted on the Town boards a couple of weeks ago... I'd bet that the kids didn't really have a problem with it; however it was other members, most of them adults (me included) who found that MOC tasteless, to say the least. Even if the forum was 18+ only, period, no exceptions, there would still be stuff which I'd rather not see here not because I'm offended or anything, but simply because I don't think they belong with LEGO, no matter how original they might be. However, 15-piece MOCs that only make sense to their creators are also not too high on my priority list either.

Point is, this is one of the few places where AFOLs from all over the world can gather and have a meaningful discussion, while also making friends from across the globe. (Most) kids aren't too interested in that, their reasons for joining are entirely different, so there you have it. It's about trying to have a community - as much as that's possible bearing in mind EB has thousands of (regular) users, instead of just being a huge gathering of people with everyone of them vying for attention.

[CP5670]

Quote

Aren't they mutualy exclusive?

If you joined a forum that had a lower age limit of 18 before you were 18 and then posted your real age, wouldn't that be un-intelligent behavior? Then if you compounded that by popping up saying that no one obeys the rule and posting lots of annoying/irrelevant things the moderators would ban you. It would be intelligent and therefore mature behavior if you joined up and carefully avoided mentioning your age and obeyed the other rules as well as you could.

The limit seems to be on "adults." 18 seems to be a loose number corresponding to adults in the first post, but Siegfried said later on that it could potentially be lower than that.

Quote

At the moment it seems to be a trickle of unwanted behavior and clearly underage members but to remove an age limit would result in many more.

That depends on whether the existing limit (even if you interpret it to be 18) is actually deterring anyone from joining. I don't think the answer to that is so clear either way. It should be kept in mind that the stupid kids on internet forums are also the people most likely to ignore any rules.

As for those of you talking of adult-themed MOCs as a reason for the 18+ limit, I can tell that you have never frequented a large forum outside the Lego community. As I said earlier, the discussion here is very tame in that respect compared to most other major forums out there, such as some PC gaming ones I frequent.

Edited by CP5670, 15 January 2010 - 06:32 PM.

[Clone O'Patra]

The original intent of this topic was just to say that people under 18 shouldn't post as such.  Just keep it to yourself and act maturely, don't go around saying "time to go to bed before school tomorrow," "got some biology homework to do, ugh" or "hey, I'm 13."  There's never going to be such a real reason to share your age at all, and if you're under the age it says in the rules, you don't need to tell anybody.

[Jipay]

Well the 18 rule has many advantages.

It was first introduced because of some MOCs that were posted here, and then we had dozens of US kids screaming because they were offended.

Screw offended US kids.

I thought we had this problem because of the US kids being the only ones to be able to browse an english website, but I was then proved wrong by really mature UK teenagers. So it was more of a cultural gap between some kids been offended (and then showing naked on some spring break dvd some years later), and some being more pragmatic about touchy MOCs. As we're targeted as a European community, the rule came naturaly as a way of informing the viewer that some 18+ (legal adult age in most european countries) MOCs could be posted.
No problem since that was done.

Kids already have gazillion forums to pollute on the net, let's not add this one to the list.