292 replies to this topic

[Horatio]

Well, Captain, it seems as though you've built more of a British ship- not too late to change sides! Weren't ships captured though? Like the Unite, which became the HMS Surprise? Also, I don't think she's too big- usually, people seem to underestimate scale. She really is beautiful, though.

[Captain Blackmoor]

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but you're missing my point: with 9 stud spacing between the gunports and 14 on each side it will become too long; in fact your hull would be about 200 studs at the waterline which is way too much! The Santissima was 201 feet at the gundeck; so yeah with 9 stud spacing you'll be building a 3rd rate as long as the Santissima!

In that case, I should look into that. Although the space between gunports is sometimes 8 as well, in order to keep the 3 stud wide gunports offset from eachother.

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

46 studs sounds good to me - if it's at the very widest part of the ship! 40ish at the forecastle should be fine too, although it looks like 44 to me at the moment.

At that picture indeed it was 44, but I've been building yesterday and now it's 40 at the widest part of the forecastle.

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't base her so much on British ships, they were very different in a lot of ways. Especially the bow and stern would look much different, but the tumblehome and all curves would be much different too! Generally British ships were smaller and more curved, they had 28 guns on the upper gundeck whereas the French had 30 and 18 on the topdeck compared to 16.

This is a British ship the HMS Bellona:

*snip*

This is a French model, build to the plans of Jean Boudriot

*snip*

Also note the bow:

*snip*

You should see that the headrails are curved very low. Also there are gunports next to the doors for chaser guns! The headrails are so low so the guns could fire. The French traditionally included gunports for bow chasers on their 2-deckers from the 17th century onwards. The reason is that they had to face Barbary Corsairs and their Xebecs
which could easily outmaneuver a lone ships of the line.
You can actually find a proof of this in the book "The Ship" from Björn Landström, page 167 (in the German version ) Admiral Croissant should have it!

So on a French ship the headrails would curve much lower and the deck between them would be far wider than on a British one.  

I have that book as well.
And I'm basing my ship on Le Duquesne, Bucentaure and Raissonable, which clearly had not these features on board. They had forechasers, which I will add, but the headrails look almost the same as their British opponents.

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

Nope, they had 2x14=28! If you don't believe me, click here!

That doesn't quite explain why I count 15 gunports at the lower gundeck. The image is in my first post as well.

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

Sorry, but that is incorrect. HMS Anson which was build as a 64gun 3rd rate in 1781 had a freeboard of less than 5ft. When she was cut down to a frigate (razéed)it was reported to be 6ft 4in. Source: "Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars" by Robert Gardiner.

Also in the book "The Ship" it is mentioned that some First Rates had a freeboard of just 1,2m (page 166)!
It was indeed very common practice for battlefleets to wait for calm winds before engaging!
Facing frigates in rough seas, the low gunports could become a serious drawback!

It still also relies on the loading weight of the ship! You know the stories to throw cargo overboard to lighten the ship, not only to make it less heavy, also to decrease the depth of the keel.
On top of that it would cost too much effort to decrease the freeboard 'height' at this stage. So I just stick with my reference, which is the book "Ships of the Line".

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

The "Bucentaure" is a "ghost ship" in history, i.e. there is almost no reliable information on it, no plans, nothing. She was in service only from 1804-1805 since she didn't survive Trafalgar and - due to the blockade spend most of her lifetime in port.
There is just one painting of her, but the painter is unknown and it's black and white.
If you refer to this painting, you should know that the painter, Aguste Mayer, was born in 1805 and has probably never seen a ship of that period. He most likely made that colourscheme up from his fantasy.

It is indeed a "ghost ship", also the reason why I started basing my ship on other vessels, simply because there was not enough reference material. However, I have found several paintings of her, including your black and white version in colour.

Link

Perfectionist, on 08 November 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

I apologize for that! I don't mean to teach you or win a debate, but instead just share some of the knowledge I aquired. Like I said, if this is getting too much into detail, just ignore my words. I can also stop with all these references if you don't wish so much historical accuracy! After all this is just a Lego and not a model building forum; although I visited the latter quite often recently.

Just tell me if you wish different feedback!

I wish you much sucess completing her - as accurate as you wish.

Cheers!

-Perfectionist

Oh no, I like this kind of feedback!   I just expand my reference sources and knowledge, as you've used different sources then I did. So in the meantime I have collected a wide arrange of ship model images and technical plans.
I've also purchased a book recently, Admiral Béjaune told me about it. It contains eye witness reports of Trafalgar and several ship logs.

Thank you very much for this feedback already, I should upload some new pictures soon!

Horatio, on 08 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

Well, Captain, it seems as though you've built more of a British ship- not too late to change sides! Weren't ships captured though? Like the Unite, which became the HMS Surprise? Also, I don't think she's too big- usually, people seem to underestimate scale. She really is beautiful, though.

It's a French ship from the beginning, British designers copied French designs, who copied them from the Spanish. Every country added its own features to deal with opponents as best as possible. These features made the ships different, but in fact the root of every popular ship type is of Spanish origin.
And indeed, many ships were captured and used in the fleet again after a refit, and extensive technical research.

Thanks mate, I will upload pictures as soon as they are ready.

[Perfectionist]

Captain Blackmoor, on 08 November 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

In that case, I should look into that. Although the space between gunports is sometimes 8 as well, in order to keep the 3 stud wide gunports offset from eachother.

Yeah, you really should as that is the single biggest problem. 7 stud spacing works best in terms of general proportions. Also take into account that you'll need an uneven number if you want the (3-wide) gunports to be nicely offset from each other. 5 studs would usually be too short, while 9 definetely is too much. 7 appears to be perfect since it fits within the 1 stud= 1 foot scale.

When you manage to fix the tumblehome too, she should be fine. We can argue about all those minor details later.  

On this picture it look pretty nice already!

I'm looking forward to the next update!

[Captain Blackmoor]

Christmas holidays give a lot of spare time to build!
And they are not over yet, orders will arrive somewhere this week which means a LOT of progress will be made the coming two weeks! I really look forward to it, as I have eagerly been waiting for these holidays.

Here is where I've been building with today according to the awesome feedback I've received.
I'm 40 studs closer towards the stern, yet I have several studs to go before I'm actually there.
The forechasers for the Corsair Chebecs have been installed and I have added more French taste to the entire bow.
There is a figurehead now as well, capstans and hatches to the hold, and the main mast has been placed!


The curved hose on the prow is there just for the time being, I will place something similar there instead. Perhaps I just put the bananas back in!

The width on the forecastle hasn't been changed yet, it will be done tomorrow as I started to rework the ship onwards from the bow. There will be more tumblehome in the bow as well, as for now it is one straight wall of bricks. And the third-rate ship is famous because it's nice curves!


The headrails, a bit drafty here and there, but everything will be smoothen out tomorrow or somewhere this week.

Now back to you guys, thanks for watching and happy holidays!

[Sebeus I]

Sweet, must be delicate to move around, it's so gigantic  

[Captain Blackmoor]

It's built in three sections, she will have five in the end. There are smooth bricks underneath so it moves very nicely over the carpet.



Without these round plates the whole build would not be possible.

[Skipper]

Stunning as always Captain! I like the new figurehead very much. I do think the stem is a bit bulky though, especially towards the top. Off topic, but I've been looking through your stuff for pictures of St. Augustine (I'm planning my own port) but they've all disappeared, where to? Happy holidays to you too, and I can't wait to see the next updates.

Edited by Skipper, 26 December 2011 - 10:55 PM.

[efullner]

I wouldn't want to come across that ship in the middle of the ocean. It would blow both of my ships to smithereens.  

[Captain Becker]

efullner, on 26 December 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

I wouldn't want to come across that ship in the middle of the ocean. It would blow both of my ships to smithereens.  

Belive me, they are so small that they are not even worth it.
Shes going to be terrifying Captain! Absolutly true monster. All i wish is to see more pictures and soon!

Captain Becker

[Captain Blackmoor]

I have been working a bit again past weeks. Basically I have increased the strenth all over the ship, as it is built in three large sections which are completely modular themselves too. I have tweaked the bow a little to decrease the width of the forecastle deck so it's not a razee'd ship anymore but a proper 74.

I have removed the fences on the gangboards and replaced them with wooden poles and ropes, which was commonly seen on French ships, in addition, the marine's walk at the bow has been removed as it's typical British and was rarely seen on French ships.

And I have placed some basic clutter, like stairs, capstans and huge chests to fill it all up nicely. The full interior is yet to come though, but I want to finish the hull first.

Here are some crappy pictures.


I'm waiting for some tan plates and headlight bricks (grates ) to finish the bow properly.


What do you think of the dark blue?


The main capstan.


In progress!

One more update and I can start with the stern, after which I copy the current starboard hull to the larboard side. After that I can start to remove tiny flaws here and there, and the interior.

And then the most beautiful part of all can begin.

Thank you all for reading, and stay tuned!

Cheers.

[Admiral Croissant]

Let's have a small comparison with how she looked in August 2010:


It's definetely still the same ship, but with a completely different tumblehome technique.
I already liked the ship back then, but only now I realize how many things you changed for the better in the meantime.

I don't have any points of improvement, and you probably studied the 74 gunners more than I did.
The only thing is that on models that I've seen, the gangboard poles are placed on a bigger distance from eachother.
And I can't spot the stairs on the side of the ship

Thanks for the update! Good to see one of these large projects still being alive.

[Frank Brick Wright]

This indeed a fantastic build and at a totally insane scale
Overall I think you are doing an excellent job, she's already looking impressive I'm not sure till which point this is a good idea but I think the prow-figure is too small for such a ship. I know replacing the minifig would imply some crazy sculpture (of course you don't have to go for human shapes so that can easy the task) but an accurate prow-figure would have around twice the size of yours.

Edited by Frank Brick Wright, 10 March 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[kurigan]

I honestly wish I had more to say about your ship. More that is to say but swooning and fawning over her.  I have nothing to offer but praise. Clearly you’ve done your homework and your attention to accuracy and detail is apparent. I sincerely doubt I’ve even witnessed so realistic a representation of a wooden warship in Lego. I’ll grant that you’ve reduced your model to little more than the bow, but I still find the curvature and scaling there of astonishing. That capstan is gorgeous as well and I would love to see a break down.

  

Your timing in updating your thread is remarkable; it really lifted my sprits to see her. I was losing hope for real world modelers around here. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of the fantasy builds are due respect, but I much prefer realism and sometime feel quite singular in the quest. Enough of my “soap box”; I hope to see her develop even further, and soon. Thanks for sharing!

[Bart]

wow great build :D

A capstan made out of a ships wheel, brilliant idea.
It looks really good, and you can have eight spokes when most have six.

I'm definitely following this thread to see where you are going :)

Bart

[Bonaparte]

Nothing but respect for such an amazing undertaking. I have a hard time finishing my minifig illusion scale ships, but doing it in full minifig scale requires a lot of dedication and passion. And the result is fantastic all round. I've been to this thread a few times since you posted the new pictures to have another look at this amazing ship under construction.

[halfpenguinhalflego]

That's amazing! I've probably already commented, but I thought I'd just say that progress is looking fantrastic! I am in envy of your stern making skills!  
How do you move it around?

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

Excellent update, Ive always admired this ship through its stages.  The dark blue looks really excellent as well.  The capstan is a great design though probably still a bit small for a ship of this scale! This picture is very interesting to me:

Captain Blackmoor, on 10 March 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

What do you think of the dark blue?

Did you redesign the entire side using jumper plates to step it out half a stud at a time?  That must be a lot of jumpers   but the result looks good from the outside.  The bow re-design looks very nice as well.  I think it looks a little more brick-like than wood but the curve is beautiful.  Great update, looking forward to seeing more!

Dread Pirate Wesley

[Nefarious]

Dread Pirate Wesley, on 16 April 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Did you redesign the entire side using jumper plates to step it out half a stud at a time?  That must be a lot of jumpers   but the result looks good from the outside.  The bow re-design looks very nice as well.  I think it looks a little more brick-like than wood but the curve is beautiful.  Great update, looking forward to seeing more!

Dread Pirate Wesley

I can tell you, it is a lot of jumpers :P - I am currently working on a similar (74 gun third rate) project using a similar method, though I am building my ship sub-water hull included (which is where I am now, and I am already sitting on several thousands of those tiny fellas.  

Captain Blackmoor: An extraordinary ship with great sense of detail and accuracy, and a post which I have been following for a quite a while, always eager to see if a new update has ticked in. Keep it up, I can't wait to see more and I will find my spot in the long line of people who can't, either.  

[Captain Blackmoor]

So Admiral Croissant and I went to the museum where the Vesta met it's end. We've been building on our ships there while the museum was open. We've received many positive reactions, and we've been interviewed as well.

And of course I have some pictures. The pictures are taken by Admiral Croissant's father.


In the car it goes, transport was rather easy!


Building time. The Vesta is being restored to her former glory.
Even the museum director brought us free coffee and cake.


Me receiving feedback of a talented ship model builder. We've had some awesome conversations.
Just behind the Fourageux you can see the Alceste in her current state.


And she grows.. That day I've build the pumps on the lower decks and some more interior details.


And the Alceste, tattered sails but hey, she has been standing on the shelf for nearly half a year.


Thanks for watching. More pictures on Brickshelf.

[Sebeus I]

Wow, the sheer size of it  
Where is her widest point ? the forecastle seems pretty wide compared to the rest of the weather deck.
Hehe, the Alceste and Vesta are shrimps compared to this titan  

[Haplo]

Never thought it was this big.
Looked really smaller on some earlier photo's.
Great job.

[Captain Blackmoor]

Well...

I just need to share this.



When I was away, someone tripped over my ship. And now no one dares to admit it..

As you can see the beast is utterly destroyed. Especially the bow, it's just gone.

It will take weeks to rebuild her. I expected to complete the entire hull within two weeks as my parents go on holidays.
It appears I will be spending this time with the dreaded bow techniques again..

[Sebeus I]

    
What is it with ships getting destroyed, it's getting a trend,
yesterday a friend of my brother "accidentally" threw a tennis-ball at my frigate  
I suppose it's kind of dangerous to leave your ship on the ground though. On the other hand placing it on a table might risk it falling off...

I better take precautions for my Flying Dutchman I don't know about Le Fourageux but if my Flying Dutchman would be destroyed I don't think I would be able to rebuild it the same way
Good luck rebuilding.

Edited by Sebeus I, 19 July 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[efullner]

Captain Blackmoor, on 19 July 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Well...

I just need to share this.



As you can see the beast is utterly destroyed. Especially the bow, it's just gone.

It looks like something my older brother does to my stuff, only on purpose--for fun. I get over it a lot, and hopefully you can, too. Keep your brick in the game!

[IamF4u5t]

Dont worry such a small ship is built up again very fast. I would kill em all.