189 replies to this topic

[Sebeus I]

Frank Brick Wright, on 13 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Are you sure that is a good idea? For my experience it is always better to split the vessel horizontally (in decks, I mean) than vertically. Specially when building such a beast wouldn't splitting her in 4 sections decrease her overall strength? I guess the ship weights quite something, so it might happen that it falls apart precisely in the separation of the sections. It is hard to estimate the connection strength just from photos (obviously you know if she is strong enough or not) but it just occurred to me.
...

I think he would transport the ship in 4 sections, I agree that carrying the ship around in one piece is very risky  
Splitting a vessel horizontally can be very complicated too and you'll get a lot of trouble trying to fix the masts in a steady manner.
For such big ship I think the cross-sections are the best way to keep interior access (if you want that atleast). I originally wanted to split my flying dutchman horizontally so the decks could be taken out but eventually I realized I had to fix the deck in order to make the ship strong enough to carry itself. If I would redo it I might go for these sections as well, it would make it a lot easier to transport.
My East-indiaman is becoming a huge fail, I wanted interior access so I placed the deck on tiles so it can be taken out. But because of the angled sides I can't take it out at all...
The eternal compromise of interior access and good-looking exterior  

Edited by Sebeus Iniwum, 13 May 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Captain Blackmoor]

Sebeus Iniwum, on 13 May 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

The eternal compromise of interior access and good-looking exterior  

I feel your pain there.

I've split up my ship in four vertical sections as well, each section is quite strong and modular too. I have to split it up as I can't move it otherwise. And it's handy for transport!

[Horatio]

Looking great! I was afraid that you weren't going to add the boomkins, but you did, and you also added the plank along the side of the ship for the anchor fluke (I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the name), which is a nice touch as well. However, one thing that I feel could be worked on is the design of the doors at the bow- you could do better than a 2x4 and a silver stud- and it's fine details like that that makes you ship so great. Just please fix the doors, and the bow will look perfect.

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

Horatio, on 14 May 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Looking great! I was afraid that you weren't going to add the boomkins, but you did, and you also added the plank along the side of the ship for the anchor fluke (I'm sorry, I'm not sure of the name), which is a nice touch as well. However, one thing that I feel could be worked on is the design of the doors at the bow- you could do better than a 2x4 and a silver stud- and it's fine details like that that makes you ship so great. Just please fix the doors, and the bow will look perfect.

I believe the plank that you're referring to is called the bolster.  Hmmm the doors eh?  I guess I didn't put too much thought into them but I accept your challenge!

Frank Brick Wright, on 13 May 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Are you sure that is a good idea? For my experience it is always better to split the vessel horizontally (in decks, I mean) than vertically. Specially when building such a beast wouldn't splitting her in 4 sections decrease her overall strength? I guess the ship weights quite something, so it might happen that it falls apart precisely in the separation of the sections. It is hard to estimate the connection strength just from photos (obviously you know if she is strong enough or not) but it just occurred to me.

This ship can never be carried in one piece, it is simply not strong enough without a full hull.  Originally I had intended to have one side completely open like a cut-away, but even then it would not be strong enough to move.  Since I still wanted access to the interior, with so many decks and so much length the best solution was to make it in sections.  With 4 pieces you can still access virtually every section of the interior and it makes it much easier to move around.  It wont move much once finished though, it's too complex so it will mainly be for display.

Speaking of the ships sections, I spent some time working on the final section: the stern.  The stern galleries slide out from the quarterdeck in one unit.  It's a bit unconventional, but it gives direct access to the captains quarters, the wardroom, and the gunroom on the bottom.  Here's how it looks removed from the rest of the quarterdeck section:



And from the outside:


You can see the captain has a private balcony as was common on ships-of-the-line.  Here's a shot of the gunroom with the wardroom above it.  The gunroom will have 4 cannons, the two rear most on the lower gun deck, and two stern chasers out the rear gunports.  It also will house the gunner and junior officers in canvas quarters, as well as the tiller connected to the rudder:



And a shot from the rear where you can see the gunports and the rudder from the outside.  It still needs a lot of decoration and fine tuning, but Im pleased with the shape so far:



It is still a work in progress and needs some more color and little details.  Let me know what you think so far though!

Dread Pirate Wesley

[Skipper]

Looks awesome! The interior's always one of my favorite parts of a MOC, so I'm glad you're able to include it in this fantastic ship. On the stern itself--my only criticisms are that I think the balconies were usually recessed as opposed to protruding, and also that the 'stepped' construction of the stern looks odd to me (I prefer Blackmoor's solution).

Anyways, keep it up!  

[Horry]

Skipper, on 25 May 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Looks awesome! The interior's always one of my favorite parts of a MOC, so I'm glad you're able to include it in this fantastic ship. On the stern itself--my only criticisms are that I think the balconies were usually recessed as opposed to protruding, and also that the 'stepped' construction of the stern looks odd to me (I prefer Blackmoor's solution).

Anyways, keep it up!  

That's true. They actually most often served the purpose to serve as a platform for the marksmen of the ship's contingent of marines. When two ships would exchange a broadside, the best place to be relatively safe would be the galleries as the majority of the enemy's broadside would aim for the gundeck or the masts. marksmencould then relatively easy take an aim for the enemy's weather deck, trying to shoot the officers and the non-commissioned officers. They also could get back into the ship if they would be shot at.

On topic: I do love the overall curving and form of the stern section! I am really looking forward to see this decorated.

[dafi]

Nice work :-)

And here we get a little bit the historical background of the ship: It is a french prize as can be seen on the horse shoe stern ;-)

ALl the best, Daniel

[Captain Blackmoor]

That looks very promising! My only suggestion is to use more yellow. For example around the windows and small decorations like flowers and such.

The side galleries are awesome! Very smooth transitions there. I can't wait to see this part connected to the rest of this magnificient vessel.

[mlucas86]

really good work pirate wesley..
i can t wait to see this work end.

this project could be a new guidline for a new way to build ship.

i m following your project with great attention....thanks for all this post step to step!

[Captain Blackmoor]

Giving this some more thought, I would go for this:

 Stern.jpg   97.37K   0 downloads
Remove the part above the yellow curved line to maintain the horseshoe shape. It would be very accurate.

[Sebeus I]

That stern is coming along great, I'm very curious how you'll decorate it, there seems to be an extra compartiment between the arched windows and the cabin, is there ?

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

Skipper, on 25 May 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

Looks awesome! The interior's always one of my favorite parts of a MOC, so I'm glad you're able to include it in this fantastic ship. On the stern itself--my only criticisms are that I think the balconies were usually recessed as opposed to protruding, and also that the 'stepped' construction of the stern looks odd to me (I prefer Blackmoor's solution).

Anyways, keep it up!  

Im not quite sure what you mean about 'stepped'. There is a little step there between the upper quarter galleries and lower galleries on the real ship, though I may have exaggerated it a bit.  On larger ships like Victory the step is less noticeable, but this is a 64.  As to the balcony, from models and plans I have researched the balcony is both recessed and protruding, partly behind the galleries but extending a little beyond them as well.  I found PR Dobsons fantistic digital rendering of Agamemnon very helpful for visualizing this:



I realize it wasn't very obvious in my first pictures how the balcony is designed, so here is a collage showing how it is both recessed and protruding.  Perhaps I made it stick out too far but there is a small section behind the galleries too:

Captain Blackmoor, on 25 May 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Giving this some more thought, I would go for this:

Remove the part above the yellow curved line to maintain the horseshoe shape. It would be very accurate.

Sebeus I, on 26 May 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

That stern is coming along great, I'm very curious how you'll decorate it, there seems to be an extra compartiment between the arched windows and the cabin, is there ?

I think the above collage answers these two questions as well.  Capt. Blackmoor, the portion above the yellow curve is necessary to mount the ships lanters, as well as covering the space between the captain's galleries and the poopdeck.  The top two pictures show how the poopdeck sits in connection with the stern.  I like your idea and might experiment with making the horseshoe larger to go all the way up to the taffrail rather than under the lanterns.

Sebeus, yes there is a small compartment behind the curved windows.  These are probably going to be the captain's quarter galleries (private privy) and captain's storage.  I may make them a little larger but am hesitant to reduce the space in the captain's cabin.

dafi, on 25 May 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Nice work :-)

And here we get a little bit the historical background of the ship: It is a french prize as can be seen on the horse shoe stern ;-)

ALl the best, Daniel

Thanks Daniel!  I will divulge the full historical background once she is finished.  Since she is not based on any one ship, during her design she became a love child between a Slade designed Ardent class and French designed Raisonnable.

Thanks for the comments everyone!  Im going back to the rigging for the time being and will post updates on that soon.

DPW

[Skipper]

Ah, the balcony looks much better in these photos. I knew they curved out a bit in real life, but (due to the angle of the last shot in the previous set, I think) it looked too protrusive the MOC. From a more aerial view it does look good though. As for the 'stepped' comment, I just find that the 'staircase' method you have for building the galleries makes for an angular cabin interior, which I don't quite like--however in the bottom-right picture of the recent collage, when integrated into the ship, the exterior of the design looks really really good. So yeah, please ignore everything I said.     Looking forward to more updates.

[Horatio]

She's definitely coming along. However, I do have to agree with Captain Blackmoor that the part of the stern for the lanterns looks off- however, rather than reduce, I think that you might benefit from having the horseshoe encompassing that part, and rounding out the edges, rather than having them curve in. I hope that's clear, but it should make her look a little more realistic IMO.

Something like this, really:

Edited by Horatio, 27 May 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[Captain Blackmoor]

If you go for a French ship of course. I don't know how realistic you want the ship to be, but the stern shape, interiors and decorations varied a lot between the nations.

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

Horatio, on 27 May 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Something like this, really:

Yup that's a Frenchie alright!  I will spend more time on the stern once I get a few more yellow fiddly bits, for lack of a better term.  Question for the historians out there: if a ship-of-the-line was captured, how much of a re-fit would be done?  Would interiors be completely changed, and exteriors redesigned to be more standardized?  Something that I haven't seen any information on to be sure.

Since Im taking a break on the stern I thought Id go back to the rigging for a while.  I rigged the top shrouds and tressle trees, and built the top gallant.  Here's how they turned out:



The top shrouds are fastened to these: so they can be removed from the taps on the fighting top and the top mast can be taken down for transport or rigging.  I think I might use yellow ones in the end.

I had a go at rigging the fore yard as well, experimenting with the truss and the jeers.  It will be working rigging so the yards can be lowered or swung.  Here's how it looks raised:



I also built the main top and mizzen top.  They wont be attached until the shrouds are rigged.  Quite a size difference between the two:



I think I came up with a more realistic way of rigging the main shrouds, once I finish them I will post another update.  What do you think of the fore shrouds so far?

Dread Pirate Wesley

[Admiral Croissant]

You're making good progress! Awesome that you're making the masts modular!
The brown 1x1 round bricks around the mast are a nice detail too.
I also like how you attached the shrouds, but wouldn't it look better to use 2 "deadeyes" for each rope?

Dread Pirate Wesley, on 01 June 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Question for the historians out there: if a ship-of-the-line was captured, how much of a re-fit would be done?  Would interiors be completely changed, and exteriors redesigned to be more standardized?  Something that I haven't seen any information on to be sure.

That's a difficult question. I'm not sure about the interior.
I think that the rebuilding depended a bit on the type of the captured ship.
For example, this is HMS Surprise before her capture (so L'Unité), and the discription says the following:

Quote

Here we see the two ships on the morning following the capture.Inconstant is making sail to investigate a strange vessel to the northward, but all turns out well; she proves to be the British frigate La Sybille,...L'Unité even as built had rather an English look about her and there is not much to mark her as a French-built ship to outward appearance, though the spidery object dangling from the driver boom is a characteristically French lifebuoy.'

On the other hand, I've heard of a captured Dutch ship of about 50 cannons which was rebuilt to carry about 64 guns in order to make her strong enough to fight in the line of battle.

But I think the usual change was just replacing cannons (the British preferred heavy, short range guns), perhaps repainting the ship, and adjusting the name. I don't think they changed the entire interior, but I'm not 100% sure..

[Sebeus I]

That rigging looks terrific, I can only shiver when imagining how much work it must cost  
Keep up the good work!

[Scorpiox]

I'm loving how this is coming along. The sheer scale and detail on this beauty is astonishing.  

May I ask a question although? How do you make your top deck sturdy enough when it is attached? I'm working on a much smaller project at the moment, but whatever I do, the deck beak everytime pressure is placed upon it.  

Any help is appreciated.  

[Dread Pirate Wesley]

Admiral Croissant, on 01 June 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

You're making good progress! Awesome that you're making the masts modular!
The brown 1x1 round bricks around the mast are a nice detail too.
I also like how you attached the shrouds, but wouldn't it look better to use 2 "deadeyes" for each rope?

I wish that I could find a way to string two of them together that looked good.  All my attempts thus far just look messy and unprofessional.

Scorpiox, on 06 June 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

May I ask a question although? How do you make your top deck sturdy enough when it is attached? I'm working on a much smaller project at the moment, but whatever I do, the deck beak everytime pressure is placed upon it.  

Any help is appreciated.  

To make it strong enough to manipulate I put a support between every gun, so approximately every 4 studs.  On top of that there are pillars that run down the center to offer more support.  It is quite strong, but I wouldn't try standing on it or anything  

Thought I'd provide an update since it had been more than a month!  I've been busy getting all the rigging in place.  I had a rethink on my previous method of doing the shrouds.  In an effort to make repairs easier, I came up with a new method using lots of these as shroud deadeyes:


Here's how it turned out.  Experimenting with the chains as well below the shroud platforms:



I also finally rigged the topgallant shrouds on the main and mizzen masts, as well as the backstays.  Here's how they look:



Here's a closeup of the mizzen mast with the gaff and spanker booms rigged.  I chose to rig them entirely with rope, just how they would be rigged in real life:



She has about 90% of her rigging now.  Still needs rat lines, and control lines for the spars and booms, but the majority are in place.  Im also pleased with how the the poop turned out.  The hammock netting makes a perfect angle towards the taff.  Here is one last shot of the quarterdeck showing a couple of redesigns.  First thing I found out is that a sixty four would  not stow fire buckets above the wheel house like a first rate would.  So I removed the hanging brackets I had previously installed.  Also, the hammock netting on the poop above the wheelhouse was actually elevated, making a railing to lean on.  Im not quite sure how I missed that detail before, here's how the quarterdeck looks now looking aft:



This ship is not too far from completion I dare say.  Still a lot of small details to add, cannons, and decorations on the stern, but she is getting close.  Let me know what you think of the quarterdeck and rigging!

Dread Pirate Wesley

[Legonardo]

  
thats what i think of it!

[Styrbjorn]

Really awesome!     

[Captain Becker]

You have to put this on Cuusoo! I just can find the right words to say how awesome it looks.

Captain Becker

[Captain Merlot]

Are you going to fully rig this ship with sails? Already it looks like it belongs in Louvre, it is a masterpiece that resembles how much can be done with legos, keep up the good work. Hopefully you can keep off Napoleon at the battle of Trafalgar.

[Horatio]

The rigging looks excellent! It's looks very clean and neat. The poop also looks good- though the Captain's skylight could maybe be taller, with side windows (though the one that you have might be preliminary). The quarterdeck also has all of the proper details- though it looks a little cramped. To remedy this, perhaps you could use some SNOT techniques to have the outer hull be black, and the inner hull white, yellow, or red, like this:



With a lighter color, the deck may look larger- just a thought, and it would be difficult, but perhaps the Danish Brig posted a few weeks ago might give you an idea of how to do that.

Other than that, she is really coming along. Have you thought of a name for her yet?