1925 replies to this topic

[Zepher]

Looks great!  Make sure you read over Dastan for parties in the same space - I would be happy to advise you on that front, as I'm sure JimBee or BD would be willing to do.   Don't want to help balance too much in case I end up going.   What if Nyx headed up the opposite team... or Atramor.  Would both be fun for Boomingham to compete with!

I suggest that you also allow people to pick their own teams, as I did for Guffington!

Edited by Zepher, 12 November 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Scubacarrot]

I think the idea is very interesting, but consider this: I'm all for rivalry, the two merchant houses sending a team of heroes to get something first? Love the idea. But why would the heroes fight each other? Even the Shadeaux and the Hinckwells would probably not engage in direct combat with each other, let alone the heroes they hired.

I think it can be very cool if you put in area's where the heroes meet, maybe have them fight a very hard fight together, have them compete in some other way so one gets more loot over the other, absolutely. But I don't think having the two groups fight each other would work very well... Does that make any sense?

This would be definitely something I'd be interested in to join, but I'd also help you out with battles, sure .

[CallMePie]

That sounds very cool and unique, Etzel.

Scubacarrot, on 12 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

But why would the heroes fight each other? Even the Shadeaux and the Hinckwells would probably not engage in direct combat with each other, let alone the heroes they hired.

I don't know, we killed a lot of Shadeaux guards in Quest 2 for the Hinckwells. If anything, hiring outside help to do it for them seems easier.

Maybe you should make such battles optional, Etzel? For example, make opportunities for the heroes to meet up, but let them decide if they want to get a lead by fighting eachother.

What part of the battles are you having problems with?

[Scubacarrot]

CallMePie, on 12 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

I don't know, we killed a lot of Shadeaux guards in Quest 2 for the Hinckwells. If anything, hiring outside help to do it for them seems easier.

But that were just guards, they are expendable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the Hinckwells and the Shadeaux would never go into direct conflict with each other. Notice how the Heroes were hired to do it, the Hinckwells themselves steered clear. But think of it this way: Would the Heroes fight each other? Maybe I'm an idealist, but I don't really think so. I think if Guts were in it, and he were to stand against any of the heroes he as quested with or met in the hall, he'd probably not fight, even if it was a team of mages or something.

[TheBoyWonder]

Its Dastan on a smaller scale. Either Way, I would love to take part.

[Etzel]

Scubacarrot, on 12 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

I think the idea is very interesting, but consider this: I'm all for rivalry, the two merchant houses sending a team of heroes to get something first? Love the idea. But why would the heroes fight each other? Even the Shadeaux and the Hinckwells would probably not engage in direct combat with each other, let alone the heroes they hired.

I think it can be very cool if you put in area's where the heroes meet, maybe have them fight a very hard fight together, have them compete in some other way so one gets more loot over the other, absolutely. But I don't think having the two groups fight each other would work very well... Does that make any sense?

This would be definitely something I'd be interested in to join, but I'd also help you out with battles, sure .

I understand what you mean. The heroes vs. heroes thing was more or less just a thought that since the goal is to bring back a certain object to their employers, the team that is missing the object would try to steal it from the other team. And if a sneaky steal would fail, a simple ambush might work better. That would make the home trip more exciting. But those battles would of course be optional and non-violent ways to get hold of the object would be possible as well.

I'm not sure about having the teams cooperate in a big battle though, it is supposed to be a competition between the teams, no fair play

CallMePie, on 12 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

That sounds very cool and unique, Etzel.



I don't know, we killed a lot of Shadeaux guards in Quest 2 for the Hinckwells. If anything, hiring outside help to do it for them seems easier.

Maybe you should make such battles optional, Etzel? For example, make opportunities for the heroes to meet up, but let them decide if they want to get a lead by fighting eachother.

What part of the battles are you having problems with?

I haven't really got started on the battles much, but I know from experience that I find it very hard to balance them right. Especially now with all the advanced classes that each have their tweaks and turns.

Scubacarrot, on 12 November 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

But that were just guards, they are expendable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the Hinckwells and the Shadeaux would never go into direct conflict with each other. Notice how the Heroes were hired to do it, the Hinckwells themselves steered clear. But think of it this way: Would the Heroes fight each other? Maybe I'm an idealist, but I don't really think so. I think if Guts were in it, and he were to stand against any of the heroes he as quested with or met in the hall, he'd probably not fight, even if it was a team of mages or something.

But it's about who gets most loot! Wouldn't Guts bash some stupid paladins a little to get a bigger share of the cake?

[CallMePie]

Scubacarrot, on 12 November 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

But that were just guards, they are expendable. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the Hinckwells and the Shadeaux would never go into direct conflict with each other. Notice how the Heroes were hired to do it, the Hinckwells themselves steered clear. But think of it this way: Would the Heroes fight each other? Maybe I'm an idealist, but I don't really think so. I think if Guts were in it, and he were to stand against any of the heroes he as quested with or met in the hall, he'd probably not fight, even if it was a team of mages or something.

That's the beauty of Heroica. If they hire heroes, they're not really in direct conflict with them. I assume that's why Heroica's continuously hired by all the houses, because they essentially operate outside of what would be considered right or wrong, not just because they're effective.

Also, that's why I'm suggesting setting up the points where they meet, but making the battles between them optional. Maybe the houses offer greater rewards if their party defeats the other however many times during the quest.

Maybe it's just me. I think Atramor's the only character that doesn't really regret the fight in Dastan with the other heroes.

[Etzel]

Also, a battle between the teams wouldn't mean that the losing team loses the quest. It's just a scramble for the the precious object, more of a rumble than a real battle.

[JimButcher]

I love the idea, Etzel. On the hero vs. hero thing, one thing I can tell you from experience is that it's better to give the heroes to choice to fight or not, rather than force them to. It offers better roleplaying and is perhaps less complicated. We had two or three in the Dastan quests, one which the heroes chose not to fight, and another in which they did fight in order to stand by their characters' beliefs.

[Flipz]

I, personally, love the idea of some more PvP.  I'd say, run this like a cross between Dastan and Quest 17--the Heroes on each team can take any path they want, and do anything they want (within reason) with the raw materials and supplies they come across, whether that means fighting each other or laying traps for each other or taking the time to search the area for hidden loot or to clear a dungeon full of treasure, etc.  If they wanted to, they could even just join forces, clear the whole area together, and duke it out at the end to see who gets the prize.  I like a freeform Quest like that, and would love to join the Shadeaux on it.

[Zepher]

Again, I recommend that you read Dastan.  We tried to have heroes fight each other twice, both times when they thought the other side had been duped.  They refused to fight the first time, and then fought an incredibly quick and bloody battle that remains one of my favorites in Heroica history.  (Using a drop from an enemy to kill an ally).

[CallMePie]

Etzel, on 12 November 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

I haven't really got started on the battles much, but I know from experience that I find it very hard to balance them right. Especially now with all the advanced classes that each have their tweaks and turns.

The formula I'm personally using for enemies' health is one WBD brought up a while ago, the heroes' combined power times (or divided, if you intend on having a bunch of opponents) however many rounds you want the battle to last. The specials and level from what I can tell pretty much need to be eyeballed, and relatively well-varied, but generally none of the heroes should be instantly KO'd at perfect health with rolls of Damage or Special Damage. (Unless the special is literally 'instant KO'. )

But disregard any of this if my Quest's party gets slaughtered or obliterates every single battle.

Edited by CallMePie, 12 November 2012 - 11:44 PM.

[Etzel]

Definitely optional heroes vs. heroes battles, I agree on that.

But I think most heroes wouldn't mind fight each other in this scenario. It's not a serious battle in a sense, more like how heroes fight in the arena. Two competing teams racing and playing tricks on each other during the way, maybe with a fight too. Something the heroes can look back on while sitting in Scheherazade's Saloon having some mead:


"Hey Boomingham, remember when I knocked you out in Newharbour? I bet you never thought a small rogue like me would lay down a big paladin."
"Haha, yeah good times Hybros! I would've have made you 1 foot even shorter if Arthur hadn't confused me with his spell. Anyway, our team still won the race and the Hinckwells gave us a great reward."
"Whatever, our teamed earned more on trading then you petty rewards. And we got to meet the King in Duplovia as well."

Excuse my steal of RP-ing .

and I'm of to read Dastan Quests

CallMePie, on 12 November 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The formula I'm personally using for enemies' health is one WBD brought up a while ago, the heroes' combined power times (or divided, if you intend on having a bunch of opponents) however many rounds you want the battle to last. The specials and level from what I can tell pretty much need to be eyeballed, and relatively well-varied, but generally none of the heroes should be instantly KO'd at perfect health with rolls of Damage or Special Damage. (Unless the special is literally 'instant KO'. )

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind

[Zepher]

Buckle in, it should take you a few days... but they're worth it, if I do say so myself.  

My suggestion for enemy balancing... and I've said this before, but make enemies that pack a punch.  Make your heroes plan.  Enemies with high SP and health work well as support people, but if they have low strength, there's no point, the battle will just take forever.  In theory, I think, if your party has two bad rounds in a row, at least one of them should be knocked out.  That will keep the battle dynamic.  It forces them to scramble to figure out who should use what items and when and in what order.  Strong enemies that can floor heroes make them think, and if they can be taken out quickly as well, that's good, because sitting around and beating down the same enemy for a week and a half real time is boring, IF the battle doesn't change in that time.

[PsyKater]

Wow, this sounds really great. I'd love to take part.

Thinking about Heros battling each other: If a Hero is chosen for a party which tries to get the item for one of the Houses, the Hero might not want to serve this House at all. So, there could be the situation, that they meet each other on their way back, that they have to fight. And then they should have the opportunity to change sides and turn against their party leader. Even if all questies would choose to collaborate, only one Eubric House would get the item. And I even think this would not happen as there always will be (should be) loyal servants of the respective House on each team.

Imagine all the Role Playing possibilites with mixed teams (esp. with a lot of Neutrals).

[Rumble Strike]

Thanks to the QMs giving insight into balancing battles and enemies.  I know the battles will be by far the weakest part of my Quest.  Although fitting for storyline purposes, the battles were seen as being too easy in the two newbie Quests, so I'm sure advanced characters will breeze through, knowing my luck.

I do find the battle process, whether as a QM, as a player, or as a reader, the least enjoyable part of this fantastic RPG.

[Waterbrick Down]

PsyKater, on 13 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Wow, this sounds really great. I'd love to take part.

Thinking about Heros battling each other: If a Hero is chosen for a party which tries to get the item for one of the Houses, the Hero might not want to serve this House at all. So, there could be the situation, that they meet each other on their way back, that they have to fight. And then they should have the opportunity to change sides and turn against their party leader. Even if all questies would choose to collaborate, only one Eubric House would get the item. And I even think this would not happen as there always will be (should be) loyal servants of the respective House on each team.

Imagine all the Role Playing possibilites with mixed teams (esp. with a lot of Neutrals).

Most players end up signing up for a quest based upon a mixture of physical reward and reputation gained with a certain house that leads to the expert class they desire. So it is not often that players end up wanting to switch sides, though this is certainly not an absolute. I like the idea Etzel and think PvP can certainly be pulled off, but it takes a lot of setup and coaxing to get them to do it. If you need any help with balancing enemies, there are many QM's on here that I know would be more than welcome to offer assistance, myself included.

[Zepher]

Rumble Strike, if you'd like help balancing enemies (or even running battles) PM me!  I'd love to help out, and I won't be doing anything myself until Wren kicks off in over a month (though sign-ups will be going up beginning of December!!).

[Etzel]

Zepher, on 12 November 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Again, I recommend that you read Dastan.  We tried to have heroes fight each other twice, both times when they thought the other side had been duped.  They refused to fight the first time, and then fought an incredibly quick and bloody battle that remains one of my favorites in Heroica history.  (Using a drop from an enemy to kill an ally).

I've read up to the end of the second battle you talked about from one perspective (JB's quest) and I see what you mean. But the big difference is that in the Dastan quests all the heroes had a similar goal (save Dastan empire from Wren/rogues Lion Knights/Cultists, essentially good (heroes) vs. evil (those enemies I listed), but different ways to succeed, while in my planned quest the goals are contradictory to each other (either team Hinckwell or team Shadeaux wins, never both) but the way to win is the same for both team (bring home the artifact).

Since all the Dastan quest had the same goal, the heroes were not very eager to fight each other, they knew there were other and more important enemies to take care of and if they failed they would jeopardize the entire empire. In my quest there is no bigger external enemy to unite against and nothing to lose (except loot) and  therefore no reason for the teams to join together.

[Flipz]

Sandy, on 14 November 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

I honestly thought Quest #44 would've ended by now, but most of the 17 players I recruited are very passive, and even the active ones are reluctant to do anything, so the quest isn't moving forward. This is not meant as an insult to my players, but if you are unsure about what you should be doing now, just say so.

You know, I'm tempted to ask this via PM, but I feel it's a discussion that ALL QMs and potential QMs can learn from. What do you do if one or more players are being very passive and don't seem to be very engaged with the Quest? Conversely, to those players who are mainly passive: what makes you that way? Is there anything we as hosts can do to increase your interest, or to make you want to involve yourselves more in our Quests?  This is one of my biggest fears as I construct my Quest, so I'd like to know what positive choices I can make and/or what mistakes I should avoid.

[Rumble Strike]

Zepher, on 13 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Rumble Strike, if you'd like help balancing enemies (or even running battles) PM me!  I'd love to help out, and I won't be doing anything myself until Wren kicks off in over a month (though sign-ups will be going up beginning of December!!).

Thanks Zeph, I really liked how creative your Dastan battles were so will definitely be in touch about some ideas.

[Chromeknight]

CallMePie, on 12 November 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Maybe it's just me. I think Atramor's the only character that doesn't really regret the fight in Dastan with the other heroes.

Nerwen doesn't regret it either. She was proved right. And it reinforces her disdain for, well nearly everybody.

[Palathadric]

I love this idea, Etzel. Would you run it as one quest though, as far as sign-ups are concerned, or two separate ones, since, after all, they will be hired by different parties and they will have their separate topics.

[Etzel]

Palathadric, on 14 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

I love this idea, Etzel. Would you run it as one quest though, as far as sign-ups are concerned, or two separate ones, since, after all, they will be hired by different parties and they will have their separate topics.

I guess as two quests, but it's only the goal that is different really.

[Endgame]

47  was great, Capn. The only problem was the fact the 1v1 Joust fights seemed a bit too luck-based. There couldn't be much strategy in them, so I really just kept buying Meads and Nostrums and healed myself when need be. Perhaps you could've had some rabid fans jumping out of the bleachers to help their favorite jouster or something? The Boss was really fun, though.