Eurobricks Target Age Group

[Rufus]

It strikes me that all this talk of bending the rules for maturely-posting underage kids will only encourage others to break them. Personally, I think that EB should publicly stand by its rules; generally, the mods seem to be doing a very good job.

Screw offended US kids.

[Trexxen]

In every culture there are kids that don't know what they're doing, and kids that can act like responsible adults. It's not a difference between US culture and UK culture in this case; it's a difference on a person-by-person basis. (Otherwise, quite a few intelligent posters on this board would have been banned long ago.)

And that's how it should be treated: a person-by-person basis, where each user is given a chance to prove that they have something to contribute to the community. If someone comes in and it is obvious they are not at the maturity level of an adult (NOT implying anything about age, although the 18+ rule does signify that this is indeed an adult-oriented site), then they should have action taken to either fix that, or to remove them. I liken it to a movie theater showing an R-rated movie - if you got the tickets, and you can't restrain yourself from talking during the movie, you're going to be removed. (Or, in the case above, if you whine about being offended by a certain scene of said movie.)

Just my two cents, though - not trying to backseat mod, but it really is an interesting balance between age and maturity based moderating here.

~Trexxen

[MetroiD]

As for those of you talking of adult-themed MOCs as a reason for the 18+ limit, I can tell that you have never frequented a large forum outside the Lego community.

Can't say about the others, but I myself have frequented many "large" forums. And as a moderator on most of those, I've always used my trusty iron fist (no glove included) when it comes to such stuff, mostly because "The Internet is for porn", as you might already be aware, and anyone with 1+ fingers and access to google could find whatever kind of adult-oriented stuff floats their boat in a matter of seconds. It's not about being offended in any way, it's just about the fact that they don't need to find it in a forum dealing with something totally different.

Back to the original topic, which was pretty simple and clear, since Siegfried likes to state things in a very coherent way, unlike my long-winded self. EB is an AFOL site - deal with it. If someone gets a muzzle, they probably needed it. But if they want to sneak in and join the fun, they could at least try to avoid getting caught. In that sense, the mods are doing quite well.

Another 2 cents of mine. That makes 4, I guess.

[peterab]

Well the 18 rule has many advantages.

It was first introduced because of some MOCs that were posted here, and then we had dozens of US kids screaming because they were offended.

Screw offended US kids.

<snip>

Kids already have gazillion forums to pollute on the net, let's not add this one to the list.

I really like this attitude, but it doesn't seem to be reflected in the action that was taken in the recent town thread with the bondage Moc. I was a little disapointed the image was removed. I found the Moc amusing, especially since I interpreted the inspiration sited as subtly satiricle. The fact that a few people got upset and cried 'who will think of the childrenz' got it removed, despite the stated intention of the site banning children so potential adult content wouldn't offend, makes me think not all the mods and admins are on the same page.

I can see there must be some line drawn, but this was clearly a Moc of interest to some. It clearly wasn't porn to me because it was made from LEGO bricks. The subject matter was distasteful to some, but if that is the criteria, I would like to request banning the bionicals and star wars forums. Or I could act like an adult, not look at stuff I'm not interested in, move on when I see something I dont like, and expect others to do the same. I actually found the jihad that sprang up against the bondage Moc to be far more worring than the Moc, because it suggests to me that the members who were upset can't seperate a Lego Moc from real life, cant accept that others may have widely different sexuality to themselves, and when faced with that reality need to erase all suggestion of it.

This is all a minor issue compared to the continued annoyance of one or two posters in the trains and town groups who are clearly not adults because they post like mentally impared six year olds, yet they seemed to have charmed lives, since I assumed they would be banned outright weeks ago. I've considered reporting every post one of them has made, but a) I'm a newish member and my interpretation of the rules may be wrong, and b) I don't really want to cause extra work for the mods.

I guess in the final instance I'm for consistancy, both of guidlines and admin and moderator action. I'm fine with the admins choosing an arbitrary standard and applying it how they see fit, even if it excludes amusing bondage Mocs, but it has to be consistent with the expectations formed from the guidlines, even if that means the guidlines are changed to say " the staff are powerfull and capricious gods who will ban anyone they deem abberant on whim ".

Oh and I thought a lot of this adult only forum stuff was to stop US kids getting screwed ... but I might be wrong

[WesternOutlaw]

As the staff member that removed the image, I think I should probably respond to the recent comments.

This is the picture that I removed from the Town topic that was labelled "Only for 18 Plus":

The moderators were alerted after one member brought the topic to our attention, for reasons unrelated to the "adult image".

After looking at the MOC and reading the discussion that it was causing, I took it upon myself to remove the image in "good taste" as the Town Moderator. While I took no personal offense to the image; some may, and some may not. Thinking that the topic was "more trouble than it was worth" and the fact that the discussion was quickly going "off-topic", I simply closed it. My thought at the time was that with so many other Town-related building opportunities, this image and topic was not creating a "healthy" or "value-added" discussion.

The staff discussed the image later and most felt that it was not offensive and should have not been removed (as this is an adult site). In retrospect, I probably should have just redirected the topic to focus on the creation, rather than the image despite the off-topic discussion. While EB is an "adult site", all of the staff; being on different time zones, do not have the ability to read topics and respond at the same time. In addition, we sometimes react differently, as views can be subjective. The staff; however, does talk about EB polices and issues like this when they arise, in an on-going effort to improve the site and bring clarity and consistency when needed.

On the issue of annoying EB members that post in Town, Train Tech, and other forums: myself and others continue to try to weed them out. You can help by continuing to alert us when you see it. In addition, just creating more mature discussions and topics in the forums help encourage them to NOT participate.

[The Alchemyst]

Maybe we should set guidelines on what "mature behavior" means, to alleviate any confusion? I guess the guidelines we have already kind of lead us on that. Then again a suitable level of maturity differs from person to person, as TheBrickster states above.

I mean the "stricter" 18+ rules is just simply ignored in cases, but then completely freeing it would open it up even more. Eurobricks has been growing constantly, and as every new season of sets rolls around, we get a new influx, which I see often over in the Bionicle forums [Hey, it's how I initially discovered EB. >.>]

The best method, in my opinion is a direct PM conversation between the member and staff, discussing the problem, and if they don't change, a simple ban or suspension. I have no clue how suspension or banning works right now, and if that's how it goes. Then again, as more people know bout EB and the rate grows, it'd be awfully hard to do all that, even with all the reports I bet. =/

The more implausible and perfect way is interviewing each and every member as they register .

I feel like I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that we should get some guidelines on maturity, since people can take so many twists and turns on it.

EDIT: Oh and I agree with what Davey said. By keeping the 18+ rule, all TFOLs enter and register at their discretion. When I signed up, I knew what I was getting into, and it seems that some people are just registering ignoring the rule completely.

You got offended? Well you signed up for EB in the first place so that makes that point moot.

Of course that doesn't solve the problem of the immature adults...

Edited January 21, 2010 by The Alchemyst

[def]

I don't find that pic offensive in the least. I think for most kids, it would simply be confusing if they saw it. It takes an adult imagination to find that offensive. I'm curious as to where the people who got offended are from. I've seen all manner of violent Lego creations, with blood and decapitations (in fact, I did one myself, once) but something sexual is a no-no. Sounds American if you ask me

[peterab]

As the staff member that removed the image, I think I should probably respond to the recent comments.

<snip>

The staff; however, does talk about EB polices and issues like this when they arise, in an on-going effort to improve the site and bring clarity and consistency when needed.

On the issue of annoying EB members that post in Town, Train Tech, and other forums: myself and others continue to try to weed them out. You can help by continuing to alert us when you see it. In addition, just creating more mature discussions and topics in the forums help encourage them to NOT participate.

Thanks for the response Brickster, and given the veering off topic in the town thread I can see your point, but it was unfortunate the original topic was also stiffled. My personal view was that it wasn't particularly town related, so moving it might have been warranted, but I guess EB doesn't really have a forum where that image would fit nicely I'm particularly heartened to hear that while individual mods act immediately if they feel it's needed, that there is a review to allow reflection.

I'll let you know the very next time I notice a lame post from the kid who gets up my nose. At least I'll know then that his posts have been looked at by the mods.

[Rick]

I don't find that pic offensive in the least.

I personally just don't like explicit depictions of violence, war, and sexual activity with Lego bricks. I am not at all 'offended' by them, I just don't like them. I understand there's lots of people who like building the bloodiest battle scenes possible. I don't like those MOCs, because it easily becomes the focal point of the whole MOC. That's why - for example - I liked this year's edition of the PTV contest so much: it really stimulated creativity. I wouldn't argue in favor of removing certain images, but it certainly makes this place more fun for me (personally) when the mods do. Problem with removing certain images, is that you get into debates about what is (violence?) and what isn't allowed (sexual activity?), but I'll gladly leave those decisions to the mods. Either way is fine with me. You could always consider

censoring only certain parts of a MOC.

[def]

I personally just don't like explicit depictions of violence, war, and sexual activity with Lego bricks. I am not at all 'offended' by them, I just don't like them.

I could say the same about Bionicle. I just don't like it, but that's no reason for that section to be taken down

The Brick Testament is a good example of adult uses of Lego. It's violent and sexual, but just in keeping with the source material.

This is a site for adults, with a warning that everything is not "kid safe", so on the rare occasion when things veer into a questionable area like this, I think members should be mature enough to take it in or avoid it if they don't like it. It's Lego. We're grown-ups.

[Sandy]

Haha, that image made me laugh, not anything else. It's a funny MOC, not sexually arousing (I hope).

That's the point of pornography - it arouses people sexually. I really, really hope there aren't people who get off by licking female minifigs or posing them in naughty ways, but of course those people exist, unfortunately. The fact remains that the large majority of people aren't aroused by seeing all-yellow minifigs, so pictures showing them can't really be counted as porn.

The conclusion is that anybody who is offended by it is a silly prude. It's equal to being offended to see animals in the zoo mating (too bad there are those kind of people, as well).

So I beg of you, mods & admins, do not censor or remove MOCs made of pure LEGO even if they depicted anything. LEGO is also a form of making art, and no one gets hurt in the process of making it, so there's no reason to shun it.

If someone posted a picture of a female minifig sucking his dick, that would be the no-go area for me.

You could always consider

censoring only certain parts of a MOC.

As I said, censorship is the enemy of free expression.

[Davey]

As the staff member that removed the image, I think I should probably respond to the recent comments.

<snip>

After looking at the MOC and reading the discussion that it was causing, I took it upon myself to remove the image in "good taste" as the Town Moderator.

Thanks for clearing up the reason for the deletion Brickster. I would have to agree that I don't think this particular MOC was a good 'fit' for the Town forum. I think a move to the 'Other LEGO Themes' forum would have made sense. Or perhaps the time has come to create another forum for sculptures, vignettes, etc. Call it perhaps an 'Artistic LEGO MOC's' forum? I think the MOC in question could certainly fit there as it was merely artistic expression.

Haha, that image made me laugh, not anything else. It's a funny MOC, not sexually arousing (I hope).

That's the point of pornography - it arouses people sexually. I really, really hope there aren't people who get off by licking female Minifigs or posing them in naughty ways, but of course those people exist, unfortunately. The fact remains that the large majority of people aren't aroused by seeing all-yellow Minifigs, so pictures showing them can't really be counted as porn.

An interesting point that I had not thought of before. I agree wholeheartedly.

As I said, censorship is the enemy of free expression.

So true. It seems like the rash of censorship-related discussions as of late focuses on 'protecting children'. If parents really want to protect their children, they should try actually parenting...rather than letting TV and the internet raise their children. The internet is NOT a babysitter. In general, a child should be supervised using the internet until they are deemed mature enough to make their own choices regarding content.

That being said, I also feel that children should not necessarily be sheltered from 'the big bad world'. Kids need to learn to make choices and understand consequences. It's a learning process that the parents should be actively involved with. Sheltering them is depriving them of the opportunity to learn and become a more capable human being. But that's a whole other discussion.

-Davey

[posades]

So I beg of you, mods & admins, do not censor or remove MOCs made of pure LEGO even if they depicted anything. LEGO is also a form of making art, and no one gets hurt in the process of making it, so there's no reason to shun it.

If someone posted a picture of a female minifig sucking his dick, that would be the no-go area for me.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm considering you just contradicted yourself.

I'm certainly not offended by anything created out of LEGO, but when I see a MOC like that I have to chuckle and wonder the maturity of the user. The builder had to sense what was coming, and maybe that's what he/she wanted: attention. You could talk about the building techniques used in the MOC and whatnot, but from what I read that's not what was going on; sex and violence are "adult" topics, sure, but to me a part of being "mature" is realizing there's right time and place for everything.

Having said that, I'm sure there are people out there that found the bondage MOC offensive, similar to how a person of Jewish descent might find a Nazi MOC involving a concentration camp offensive. I guess the point is people have different morals/tastes, so why even try to stir the pot with something risque when you know it's just going to cause a ruckus? (disclaimer: I know this is just my opinion, I'm a boring person )

[Sandy]

I'm assuming this is sarcasm considering you just contradicted yourself.

No I didn't. LEGO nudity = okay, LEGO nudity with real nudity = not okay (at least in this forum, in my opinion).

I guess the point is people have different morals/tastes, so why even try to stir the pot with something risque when you know it's just going to cause a ruckus? (disclaimer: I know this is just my opinion, I'm a boring person )

So you are.

I believe the reasons why people do risque creations are varied, some want to have a laugh while some want to make a statement. Maybe someone wants to cause a ruckus to get people discussing, have you thought about that?

It all boils down to us humans wanting to express ourselves, to make our opinions and preferences heard and seen, and LEGO creations is one way of doing that. Would you really want to deny that, just so nobody gets offended? Do you really think boring and safe is the right way to be? Just wondering...

[def]

Having said that, I'm sure there are people out there that found the bondage MOC offensive, similar to how a person of Jewish descent might find a Nazi MOC involving a concentration camp offensive. I guess the point is people have different morals/tastes, so why even try to stir the pot with something risque when you know it's just going to cause a ruckus? (disclaimer: I know this is just my opinion, I'm a boring person )

Comparing a sex themed MOC to a concentration camp MOC is to me, quite offensive. I'm not at the point where I can equate voluntary sex acts to racial purging, even for topical conversation. I'm far too grown up for that. Think about how distasteful that comparison is for a bit, please.

If someone thinks a thread is too risque, close your browser and open a new one. It's that simple. What was going on in that pic? It takes a dirty mind to explain it fully, but nothing was shown.

On a site like this, I'd draw the line at explicit images, where something is actually being shown, not implied, and Lego doesn't make the parts for that

Really, this is a non-issue for me, since I don't make such MOCs, and they rarely appear, if they ever have before. But if anyone insists on making a mountain out of a molehill, I'll point my finger and call it a molehill again. Who is causing a ruckus is the person encouraging us to adhere to the most prudish person's morals/tastes. Not aimed at Posades specifically, but also at some in the original thread too.

Sorry if that seems tough, but it needs to be said. I don't go looking for this sort of MOC, but one reason I spend so much time on this site is because it's frequented by grown-ups, and I appreciate the mods here treating us as such. We don't need to be treated like people weaned on Disney films, for fear of being risqué.

[richb]

Is there any reason for not having a clearly noted "Taboo forum," either publicly browsable or hidden/group-only where 'anything goes?' I think the image posted previously is hysterical, but I can understand where it, and the line of conversation it probably inspired, might be inappropriate under the Town forum.

[posades]

No I didn't. LEGO nudity = okay, LEGO nudity with real nudity = not okay (at least in this forum, in my opinion).

Sorry, I misunderstood what you originally said.

So you are.

I believe the reasons why people do risque creations are varied, some want to have a laugh while some want to make a statement. Maybe someone wants to cause a ruckus to get people discussing, have you thought about that?

It all boils down to us humans wanting to express ourselves, to make our opinions and preferences heard and seen, and LEGO creations is one way of doing that. Would you really want to deny that, just so nobody gets offended? Do you really think boring and safe is the right way to be? Just wondering...

Yes I did think about that, and I clearly stated that my line of thinking was just my personal opinion. Obviously there are going to be people that disagree with me (heck I'd be hard pressed to find someone who agrees ). I get the whole expression thing, I'm just not always sure how much is 'personal artistic expression' and how much is 'let's make this MOC so I can see how many people I can offend'. I'm not imposing my views on anyone, I'm just saying there's inevitably going to be someone out there that takes objection to a MOC with underlying sexual tones; it's comical sometimes seeing people say there should be free expression and then snidely deride the notion there might be someone out there offended by a particular piece of work (not directed at you Sandy since you didn't do that).

And yes in my perfect fantasy world no one would ever get offended or hurt, which is also another reason I'm a dull and lifeless person.

Comparing a sex themed MOC to a concentration camp MOC is to me, quite offensive. I'm not at the point where I can equate voluntary sex acts to racial purging, even for topical conversation. I'm far too grown up for that. Think about how distasteful that comparison is for a bit, please.

If someone thinks a thread is too risque, close your browser and open a new one. It's that simple. What was going on in that pic? It takes a dirty mind to explain it fully, but nothing was shown.

On a site like this, I'd draw the line at explicit images, where something is actually being shown, not implied, and Lego doesn't make the parts for that

I appreciate the backhanded compliment, I really do (I wouldn't still be playing with LEGO if I wasn't a child at heart!).

Who's to say there isn't someone out there twisted enough not to be offended by a racially motivated MOC, for instance? Living in the deep South of the United States for most of my life, I can assure you there are people of all different backgrounds and mentalities. I'm sorry I offended you with my comparison, and I'll try to use a better analogy next time the opportunity arises. You illustrated my point well, however; there are differing viewpoints of what "morality" and "etiquette" means to each person. Some might find the depiction of sexual acts more 'wrong' than the depiction of one of the darkest times in our history (as sad as that may be). Unfortunately this gray area makes it really hard to police what is right and what is wrong (other than a case by case basis which is almost impossible to keep up).

How about this analogy: a bondage MOC posted in the Town Forums is like a 14 year-old posting in the Eurobricks Forum. Most people won't have a problem with it, but what to do with the one or two that might find it offensive because it's breaking the "rules"? (you see how I made this post on-topic )

Really, this is a non-issue for me, since I don't make such MOCs, and they rarely appear, if they ever have before. But if anyone insists on making a mountain out of a molehill, I'll point my finger and call it a molehill again. Who is causing a ruckus is the person encouraging us to adhere to the most prudish person's morals/tastes. Not aimed at Posades specifically, but also at some in the original thread too.

Sorry if that seems tough, but it needs to be said. I don't go looking for this sort of MOC, but one reason I spend so much time on this site is because it's frequented by grown-ups, and I appreciate the mods here treating us as such. We don't need to be treated like people weaned on Disney films, for fear of being risqué.

Like I said, I'm not imposing my views on anyone, just giving a different viewpoint. I don't see how quietly telling a mod the reason a particular picture might be found offensive to some (whoever did that) is causing a ruckus.

I agree we shouldn't be treated like children, and I also agree we very rarely do on this forum. As I noted in my previous post, I personally was never offended by the material in the image, but someone obviously was to contact a mod with their concerns and for a mod to act on this particular grievance.

[MetroiD]

Guys, perhaps you need to take a break from explaining just how offended or unoffended you felt and take a look at the thread you're posting in. This was about the EB Target Age Group and was started by Sieggy to clarify EB moderators' view on that, not to lead to the discussal of a "weird" MOC.

For what it's worth, I can also say that I found that MOC downright stupid and not enjoyable or creative in any way. But who cares about my point of view anyway - I mean, the author has obviously enjoyed doing this enough to post it on a big forum, so I'd only be pissing on his parade if I start sharing my views on art and what it should / should not be like. I agree that if you don't like something, you can always click the big cross in the upper right corner and that's it - censorship is not required, it's just a question of taste. To me, portrayal of LEGO minifigs getting beat up and decapitated is also absolutely distasteful, but to others that's the primary subject of MOCs... Nothing left for me to do but ignore such things when I see them. So, to add to Jipay's words - Screw being offended, period.

[Sandy]

Guys, perhaps you need to take a break from explaining just how offended or unoffended you felt and take a look at the thread you're posting in. This was about the EB Target Age Group and was started by Sieggy to clarify EB moderators' view on that, not to lead to the discussal of a "weird" MOC.

Umm, you just did the exact same thing you reprimanded us for. Perhaps you shouldn't try to play moderator next time?

[Ricecracker]

Or perhaps the time has come to create another forum for sculptures, vignettes, etc. Call it perhaps an 'Artistic LEGO MOC's' forum? I think the MOC in question could certainly fit there as it was merely artistic expression.

I personally don't think that's the best idea. What would be considered as artistic MOCs could be widely interpreted. For instance, I consider most of my MOCs art, regardless of whether or not others do. I think it would do more harm than good .

...similar to how a person of Jewish descent might find a Nazi MOC involving a concentration camp offensive.

Being Jewish myself, I can tell you that I don't necessarily find those MOCs offensive. It all lies in the context. If, say, the MOC was to show the horrors of the Holocaust, or as a sort of memorial, I think it'd be a great idea, whereas if it were to parade around Hitler or the Nazi's, I be understandably offended.

[simonjedi]

Trexxon summed up my opinion

And that's how it should be treated: a person-by-person basis, where each user is given a chance to prove that they have something to contribute to the community. If someone comes in and it is obvious they are not at the maturity level of an adult (NOT implying anything about age, although the 18+ rule does signify that this is indeed an adult-oriented site), then they should have action taken to either fix that, or to remove them. I liken it to a movie theater showing an R-rated movie - if you got the tickets, and you can't restrain yourself from talking during the movie, you're going to be removed. (Or, in the case above, if you whine about being offended by a certain scene of said movie.)

Edited January 21, 2010 by simonjedi

[Jipay]

Guys, this topic is slowly going on the wrong side of the road. Could you please stop using references to WWII ?

[MetroiD]

Umm, you just did the exact same thing you reprimanded us for. Perhaps you shouldn't try to play moderator next time?

Uh-huh. And have you by chance noticed that this thing is discussed over and over every other week - be it in this here thread or someplace else? It just gets boring after a certain while, that's all.

Then again, I guess I just need to do the exact same thing I thought would work best anyway - ignore the whole fuss.

[def]

Who's to say there isn't someone out there twisted enough not to be offended by a racially motivated MOC, for instance? Living in the deep South of the United States for most of my life, I can assure you there are people of all different backgrounds and mentalities. I'm sorry I offended you with my comparison, and I'll try to use a better analogy next time the opportunity arises. You illustrated my point well, however; there are differing viewpoints of what "morality" and "etiquette" means to each person. Some might find the depiction of sexual acts more 'wrong' than the depiction of one of the darkest times in our history (as sad as that may be). Unfortunately this gray area makes it really hard to police what is right and what is wrong (other than a case by case basis which is almost impossible to keep up).

Well, as you say, it's a grey area. In that case, I'd err on the side of the grown-ups in not censoring and not promoting a prudish mentality.

How about this analogy: a bondage MOC posted in the Town Forums is like a 14 year-old posting in the Eurobricks Forum. Most people won't have a problem with it, but what to do with the one or two that might find it offensive because it's breaking the "rules"? (you see how I made this post on-topic )

There's nothing offensive about 14 year olds posting. It's against the rules, and some young teens (not all) can be annoying, but I don't understand how they could be considered offensive.

If I wanted to use an all ages site, I'd stick to Lego.com.

[blueandwhite]

Is there any reason for not having a clearly noted "Taboo forum," either publicly browsable or hidden/group-only where 'anything goes?' I think the image posted previously is hysterical, but I can understand where it, and the line of conversation it probably inspired, might be inappropriate under the Town forum.

Just because Eurobricks is a site for adults, I don't think that the moderators are looking to invite controversy. A "taboo" forum sounds like a place where members would inevitably start trying to push the boundries and I imagine that it would quickly become a headache for the mods. Do we really need a forum dedicated to pushing the limits? A major aspect of being a mature adult is the ability to use one's discretion to discern what is appropriate or inapproriate in a given environment. Many teenagers make the mistake of assuming that the depiction graphic acts of violence are mature, simply because they are generally viewed as being inappropriate for a younger audience. Now this is just my opinion, but creating a forum that looks to invite controversy would probably bring in an undesired element to the Eurobricks community.

Edited January 23, 2010 by blueandwhite