Ragnarök Now - Day Five

[Palathadric]

I agree with you that Role Cop is a suspicious claim, and more typically a scum role, but I'm surprised that you have given no justification for the choice of your targets at night.

Also, if Dragmall is sure that someone else was blocked by the scum blocker on Night 3, he or you could be lying, or we have three blockers (which doesn't sound very likely), a jailkeeper, or someone with a one-shot blocker action (e.g., a jack-of-all-trades).

To my understanding we've seen the same two killers every night. But it's not unheard of for the scum to have a limited-shot dedicated converter. If Dragmall's Role Cop is telling the truth that seems to be the case here. Let's hope they didn't get a chance to use their conversion, but given their losses by Day Two (the scum knew they lynched one of their own), I doubt they didn't use it before Hervi got lynched.

According to Cranebeinn "Hephastus" trusted Hervi, so wouldn't it have made more sense to give him an invention on Night One?

Just what I was saying. I wonder why you selected Finn, I would find this interesting to know. A not unlikely solution to the blocker issue, is that Draggy's blocker could be scum and did not target whom he said he targetted. This is another theory I trust Dragmall to look into, but it does go back to the case that someone is lying.

The fact that he gave Finn a vest to me show that at least for the first night and even the second, he was on the side of the town, as no scum would probably pass on the opportunity to give their team an advantage, as for the further nights, I have a feeling most of this is conjecture about a conversion without any substantial proof.

I don't see why not? Scum have done a lot of things to appear town including getting their own lynched, handing a bulletproof vest to someone whom you are not targetting does not sound too extraordinary a thing to do. :shrug:

I wonder why you selected Finn, I would find this interesting to know.

Just in case my quote of Rurik's statement threw anyone off, I was speaking to Cranebeinn here.

[Scubacarrot]

So for the folks who don't know what's going on, apparantly this role cop person investigated me and found out I'm some kind of protector/doctor, but he was woozy. Or something. What I request is that we get very specific paraphrasing of what he found out. Role cop, you must realize: I am vanilla. A 100%. I have no action, I have never had an action. I never received something, and all these nights I have slept without noticing anything. Without medication, too, quite impressive with all the killing going on, wouldn't you say?

This "woozy" thing would presumably explain it, I hear you think. But I must ask you: How do you get a result that changes a vanilla into a doctor? Keep in mind this is the same role cop that presumably found out that found out that Hinckley had "some kind of converting action".

Time is running short, if you know how to explain this stuff, just come forward, I am having more questions than answers today, and it's annoying. People aren't helping. There's folk like Wilhalm, who I don't particularly suspect, because being passive in these kind of situations is his style. Sure, in the cases where he's actually the bad guy that helps him greatly, but it hurts the town when he's town too, and I find that attitude bad.

There's folk like Beorn who apparantly have little idea what's going on, and honestly, I can't blame you, I have the same problem. Because some scummy dick decided it would be a good idea to use dumb non-existing failing god-names, I have to read back 10 minutes before every statement to make sure I have the right god names, and still get it wrong. Some of the people (Cranebeinn) like to word things as impossible as they can. I am still not convinced about your innocence, Cranebeinn, I think you made a few too many "mistakes", the fact that you were intimately working with Hervi, and 'trusting' him does not sit right with me. The fact that you have an approximate one in three chance to fail seems bizarre and convenient for your current story. What if someone else, who is dead, actually was Hephaestos? Don't ask me who, I don't know, just throwing ideas around. It seems unlikely you would really give a bulletproof vest to a towny if you were scum. Could you explain the choices behind each of the targets, and what items and why those items you were giving them?

[Scubacarrot]

So, I have heard something about the Prankster again. Would he or she kindly step forward or contact me? Apparantly there might be a way to figure out a scum with the help of him or her.

[Bob]

Pardon me, but I have a pretty good idea of what's going on. I'm discussing things with a few people before we bring things forward.

[Scubacarrot]

Pardon me, but I have a pretty good idea of what's going on. I'm discussing things with a few people before we bring things forward.

Oh, excuse me, I was going on what was said a few days ago. No offense was intended. I am looking forward to what you've got.

[Scouty]

Lots of things to take in and understand, I hope to get a moment and return with a better understanding of what's going on. I will say that Cranebeinn is in my suspicion, though.

The weather gods have played their tricks on me, but it's not enough to keep me down. My silvery accoutrements continue to shine.

[Pandora]

Do we seem to be missing a few people? It's almost halfway through the day and we haven't even heard from Dagrun at all, and Canute, Carl and Wilhalm have just wandered off again.

On to the discussion at hand, Cranebeinn has been high on my list of suspects for a while, as a few people can confirm from private conversation. I was also in conversation with Finn, and he wasn't sure he could trust you either, despite your gift. The reasoning he gave me for why you gave him a gift on night one didn't seem adequate, but he was hypothesising on your behalf, so it'd be very helpful to understand to whom you have tried to gift each night, and why you chose that person. Like some others here, I don't see what happened on day one to make Finn seem so trustworthy, and I cannot fathom why you felt Wilhalm was deserving of a present, especially after trying to call him out for his silence (which hasn't exactly improved a significant amount). Giving a present to Finn would help 'confirm' you to a townie, even if the gift was protective - you could just kill other townies instead, or having gained his trust find out if he'd used it. It wouldn't make sense for you to target him last night, knowing he had a protective item, but we unfortunately don't know if you knew whether he'd already used it. I appreciate that you may feel we will disbelieve whatever answer you give to that.

Your role in itself, as described to me by Finn, didn't strike me as necessarily only useful to townies, so you being an inventor doesn't necessarily mean you're a town inventor. There are other things, too, like your timely appearance as Demeter to support Hervi, and then reappearance in the form of Hephaistus - two names apparently to protect your identity, even though the person protecting this identity was Hervi, a known scum who was on their way to be lynched at that point. Anyway, for now, I'd like to hear more about why you chose to gift to the people you did, please.

This "woozy" thing would presumably explain it, I hear you think. But I must ask you: How do you get a result that changes a vanilla into a doctor? Keep in mind this is the same role cop that presumably found out that found out that Hinckley had "some kind of converting action".

It is very possible that actually there is a redirector at work, and that would explain getting a doctor result on a vanilla. That is assuming you are a vanilla, but why would someone claim you're a protector and not some scum role? So it would seem logical to me that the role cop should be examined closely. This result doesn't necessarily imply one or other of you is either town or scum, but the fact that we even have a role cop, which is an unusual role for us to have, needs further attention.

In addition to all that, I await with interest whatever it is that Beorn has to say.

[Chromeknight]

On to the discussion at hand, Cranebeinn has been high on my list of suspects for a while, as a few people can confirm from private conversation. I was also in conversation with Finn, and he wasn't sure he could trust you either, despite your gift.

I am glad we have now settled that I am the inventor. That I have not lied about that or fake-claimed a role.

The reasoning he gave me for why you gave him a gift on night one didn't seem adequate, but he was hypothesising on your behalf, so it'd be very helpful to understand to whom you have tried to gift each night, and why you chose that person. Like some others here, I don't see what happened on day one to make Finn seem so trustworthy, and I cannot fathom why you felt Wilhalm was deserving of a present, especially after trying to call him out for his silence (which hasn't exactly improved a significant amount). Giving a present to Finn would help 'confirm' you to a townie, even if the gift was protective - you could just kill other townies instead, or having gained his trust find out if he'd used it. It wouldn't make sense for you to target him last night, knowing he had a protective item, but we unfortunately don't know if you knew whether he'd already used it. I appreciate that you may feel we will disbelieve whatever answer you give to that.

Your role in itself, as described to me by Finn, didn't strike me as necessarily only useful to townies, so you being an inventor doesn't necessarily mean you're a town inventor. There are other things, too, like your timely appearance as Demeter to support Hervi, and then reappearance in the form of Hephaistus - two names apparently to protect your identity, even though the person protecting this identity was Hervi, a known scum who was on their way to be lynched at that point. Anyway, for now, I'd like to hear more about why you chose to gift to the people you did, please.

It seems I've been a bit trusting all round. Trusting Finn, (vindicated) trusting Hervi (fail!) approaching bergulf...

Why Finn?

He called me out on day one about the vote on Wilhalm. That started us talking. I played a previous school with him, I needed someone to trust, I took a leap.

Never make that mistake again. Thanks for rubbing it in with 'Finn didn't trust you either'

Why Wilhalm?

He was on a list of sheep Dragmall suspected. But Hervi warned people off voting him. In thread. And Hervi was smart scum. He would never protect a fellow scum so blatantly. (don't give me any reverse psych over that. I'm explaining my[/] thinking, not yours.) therefore Wilhalm was a very low probability of being scum. Plus an invention might move a silent sheep to an active and helpful townie.

As for knowing whether or not Finn used his gift. He told me something went weird with it night three. The night he was blocked... Perhaps we should take a closer look at that night.

As for killing him. Huh? I don't think I'd make that play if I were scum. Surely I'd keep him around to verify my "claim".

Town inventor? Or not?

Let me unpack my role fully. Likely you haven't got all the details.

Target a player, granted a random one-shot night ability

30% chance No effect, 15% chance each of Bulletproof or Ascetic, 10% chance each of Watch, Protect, Track, Block.

I asked straight up, self target (no), repeat target(yes)

Yeah, that's a scummy list of powers, not.

Does it suck it's random? Yup. Does it suck that three times in ten its useless?Yup. Is it balanced? Ask Odin.

Hervi, and multiple names.

Hervi writes play including my words to Bergulf calling me Demeter.

I worry I could be called out as scum over that. So I come forward explaining my words, owning up to Demeter. Should I have not?

Then because I foolishly trust Hervi, I reveal to him I am the inventor. He code names the inventor Hephastus. Clearly he's not going to say Demeter is the inventor, since everyone paying attention knows I'm Demeter. I figure it's more protection for me. I'm already Demeter, no one is going to come hunting for me as the inventor. Then it turns out Hervi is scum and they know I'm the inventor (since I was blocked night three). So we're here on day five and I'm saying everything in thread (just like Snotra wanted) because there's no point hiding anything. I'm clean, and my words shine light on other lies.

[Pandora]

I am glad we have now settled that I am the inventor. That I have not lied about that or fake-claimed a role.

Dragmall also already settled it. And he said this was thanks to Finn, also.

Why Finn?

He called me out on day one about the vote on Wilhalm. That started us talking. I played a previous school with him, I needed someone to trust, I took a leap.

Never make that mistake again. Thanks for rubbing it in with 'Finn didn't trust you either'

This was the story Finn gave me, and it was not my intention to rub anything in. The fact that it's consistent is reassuring.

Why Wilhalm?

He was on a list of sheep Dragmall suspected. But Hervi warned people off voting him. In thread. And Hervi was smart scum. He would never protect a fellow scum so blatantly. (don't give me any reverse psych over that. I'm explaining my[/] thinking, not yours.) therefore Wilhalm was a very low probability of being scum. Plus an invention might move a silent sheep to an active and helpful townie.

That's reasonable logic. Wilhalm is still quiet, but that isn't your responsibility, and I understand you were unsuccessful in motivating him with a gift.

As for knowing whether or not Finn used his gift. He told me something went weird with it night three. The night he was blocked... Perhaps we should take a closer look at that night.

As for killing him. Huh? I don't think I'd make that play if I were scum. Surely I'd keep him around to verify my "claim".

I didn't really expect an answer to that; I did say I appreciated that it was difficult to answer. I hope a closer look at that night is already happening.

Town inventor? Or not?

Let me unpack my role fully. Likely you haven't got all the details.

Target a player, granted a random one-shot night ability

30% chance No effect, 15% chance each of Bulletproof or Ascetic, 10% chance each of Watch, Protect, Track, Block.

I asked straight up, self target (no), repeat target(yes)

Yeah, that's a scummy list of powers, not.

Does it suck it's random? Yup. Does it suck that three times in ten its useless?Yup. Is it balanced? Ask Odin.

I didn't have all the details at all, I had some and had inferred others, and the roles you mention, assuming that they're true, are indeed more town-friendly. I didn't ask you whether you thought it was balanced, however I suspect that your role is a balancing role itself, which again implies to me that it's more town-aligned.

Hervi, and multiple names.

Hervi writes play including my words to Bergulf calling me Demeter.

I worry I could be called out as scum over that. So I come forward explaining my words, owning up to Demeter. Should I have not?

Then because I foolishly trust Hervi, I reveal to him I am the inventor. He code names the inventor Hephastus. Clearly he's not going to say Demeter is the inventor, since everyone paying attention knows I'm Demeter. I figure it's more protection for me. I'm already Demeter, no one is going to come hunting for me as the inventor. Then it turns out Hervi is scum and they know I'm the inventor (since I was blocked night three). So we're here on day five and I'm saying everything in thread (just like Snotra wanted) because there's no point hiding anything. I'm clean, and my words shine light on other lies.

Again, a reasonable explanation.

I'm more inclined to believe you're town after hearing what you've had to say, which it would seem from your reaction would surprise you. You have made a number of strange comments which are similar in their nature to all that you've just said; namely that you basically just seem permanently pissed off and have a tendency to sigh a lot. Fair enough, you're being accused of being scum so you would be annoyed, but it has made some of your earlier comments seem "off" (as others have put it). Thank you for your responses.

[Chromeknight]

I'm more inclined to believe you're town after hearing what you've had to say, which it would seem from your reaction would surprise you. You have made a number of strange comments which are similar in their nature to all that you've just said; namely that you basically just seem permanently pissed off and have a tendency to sigh a lot. Fair enough, you're being accused of being scum so you would be annoyed, but it has made some of your earlier comments seem "off" (as others have put it). Thank you for your responses.

No worries. I do need to pay closer attention to how I appear. I do know I work best when I have someone to bounce off.

This game has been frustrarting for me. The two previous games I played as scum , I knew what was going on. This time I don't. And I don't like that. Plus trusting Hervi has burnt my fingers.

It's weird that extending trust to someone is actually a reason for them to mistrust yourself.

As for being accused as scum, that's to be expected, it's the lack of other suspects today that's troublesome.

[WhiteFang]

For myself, I had seen my names flying in and out for a few times... and for sure, I am no threat or very helpful in many cases, simply because there is nothing constructive on my end to ensure that we are on the right lead. Instead of causing misleading towards other on hounding the wrong clues, I will rather quietly observe the ones who are competent to gather and evaluate them in the light of public, since I believe the inner circles (between the good and bad) is battling for each other survival.

I am not afraid of being accused as a scumbag and my fly-under-the-radar situational awareness had caused me gravely. It is not too far from victory but a little mess on the lack of suspects might change or take that potential victroy away. Of course, I will continue to stand my grounds and to see who will take that chance to convict me in day or at least to start a lynch, and there will definitely be a few possible scenarios for the reason behind it.

That's reasonable logic. Wilhalm is still quiet, but that isn't your responsibility, and I understand you were unsuccessful in motivating him with a gift.

Didn't receive any, simply because the odds are against my favour...

[Darkdragon]

I've been quiet here but I have been talking to some folks privately. I still suspicious of Cranebeinn, but not sure at the moment if I'm suspicious enough to vote him. His last defense is very convincing, I need to think about this. Yesterday has shown that even sometimes the most loyal of us can say strange things that make no sense. That doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to kill us, they just aren't very helpful.

[Capt. Redblade]

Sorry Carl "wandered off", he's been discussing things with people in private and running over some of the previous statements in his head, trying to find useful info.

I still suspicious of Cranebeinn, but not sure at the moment if I'm suspicious enough to vote him. His last defense is very convincing, I need to think about this. Yesterday has shown that even sometimes the most loyal of us can say strange things that make no sense. That doesn't necessarily mean they are trying to kill us, they just aren't very helpful.

Carl seconds this. Cranebeinn's defence is somewhat reassuring, and we would do well to remember that the einherjar-iest of einherjar are still capable of saying very stupid things. (On an unrelated note, alas, poor Bergulf, we hardly knew ye. )

[Chromeknight]

I am glad my fellow einherjar find truth compelling.

However, the question still remaining is, if not me, then who? The day wears on. Is someone else going to speak up?

Beorn? Dragmall? Rurik perhaps?

How about you Snotra? Still set against me?

[Dragonator]

So for the folks who don't know what's going on, apparantly this role cop person investigated me and found out I'm some kind of protector/doctor, but he was woozy. Or something. What I request is that we get very specific paraphrasing of what he found out. Role cop, you must realize: I am vanilla. A 100%. I have no action, I have never had an action. I never received something, and all these nights I have slept without noticing anything. Without medication, too, quite impressive with all the killing going on, wouldn't you say?

This "woozy" thing would presumably explain it, I hear you think. But I must ask you: How do you get a result that changes a vanilla into a doctor? Keep in mind this is the same role cop that presumably found out that found out that Hinckley had "some kind of converting action".

I agree that the presence of a rolecop is somewhat odd. The conversion action sort of makes sense in my mind though. Hervi told me that he hada two-shot bodyguard action, which had a 50% chance of seeing who was targeting a person and a 50% chance of killing him. He said he was going to use it in the first two nights to make sure it had some use.

Since Hervi generally likes to twist the truth, was this perhaps his conversion role? Maybe he could only convert twice, and each time he had a 50% chance of success? Would that explain the woozy protection result on Petrus on night one? Perhaps that was a failed attempt at a conversion? In which case perhaps Hervi was successful on night two?

I am concerned that someone was converted in the first couple of days before Hervi was killed. It is certainly possible. Was it Cranebeinn? Who knows.

Why Wilhalm?

He was on a list of sheep Dragmall suspected.

Just a quick note that you didn't have that list until very recently, it wasn't part of your reasoning for targeting him. The rest makes sense though.

We're running out of time, and we do need to make sure we use our lynch for today. If we're got going to lynch Cranebeinn, what other options do we have?

Well, I've been striking people off my list slowly, and by looking at who has been verified to have a town role and who has been tracked/blocked recently, I believe the killer last night had to be either Snotra, Wilhalm or Patrekr. The only other options are our unverified "town" role claims, which are the inventor and perhaps the rolecop.

So, of our three main suspects then, which one would be most beneficial to lynch? We have nothing on Wilhalm and I do feel he is just a rather passive townie. Snotra has been very aggressive, particularly against Hervi, which could have been staged. The odd rolecop result and his vanilla claim also mean he wouldn't be a bad lynch. Patrekr has had an odd voting history and has been quite adamant in defending Cranebeinn today. Is that scummy or just a townie who thinks Cranebeinn is ok? His thoughts haven't been that useful previously either.

Well, let's get some voting going. For now, I shall vote: Patrekr (Palathadric).

[Rick]

I am glad my fellow einherjar find truth compelling.

You have certainly justified your targets and, even though they might not have been my targets, your reasoning makes sense. What's worrying though is that you claim to have been blocked (or at least, that seems like the most likely explanation, and if Hervi knew your role it would make sense to block you), but Dragmall claims that someone else got blocked by the scum blocker on Night Three. I'm torn between whether that means someone is lying or if it could simply be explained by, for example, a one-shot roleblock action.

Since Hervi generally likes to twist the truth, was this perhaps his conversion role? Maybe he could only convert twice, and each time he had a 50% chance of success? Would that explain the woozy protection result on Petrus on night one? Perhaps that was a failed attempt at a conversion? In which case perhaps Hervi was successful on night two?

I think we came to the conclusion that the wooziness was explained by the framer/prankster targeting Petrus on Night One, which would make sense considering Bergulf's investigation plans (comparing Hervi to Petrus). But then again, they also seemed to have blocked Bergulf on Night Two. Do you think they'd risk trying to convert Petrus on the same night as framing/pranking him?

Well, I've been striking people off my list slowly, and by looking at who has been verified to have a town role and who has been tracked/blocked recently, I believe the killer last night had to be either Snotra, Wilhalm or Patrekr. The only other options are our unverified "town" role claims, which are the inventor and perhaps the rolecop.

That's assuming they have a dedicated killer, which is more likely if the Role Cop is Einherjar, which I still doubt somehow. But that also brings us to the result on my wife Snotra. If the Role Cop is scum, why would the scum also 'frame' (or whatever causes the wooziness) Snotra the same night and come up the protector result on her?

[Scubacarrot]

It seems unlikely that there are both a framer and a scum role cop at work, doesn't it? So we need a few ideas of what might have happened:

1) I got framed by a framer that links two people, this framer is scum, the role cop is a friendly. We have no explanation of why the fact that Hervi had some sort of action was not brought forward. I also can't think of a good reason the framer would target me, perhaps the framer knew the role cop's target?

2) The (Scum) Role cop thought his result up. This seems unlikely as this would be very careless behaviour.

3) Something not yet disclosed has happened.

By the way, Dragmall, I bet you a sixpack that there's a scum between the people that claimed to you.

[Dragonator]

By the way, Dragmall, I bet you a sixpack that there's a scum between the people that claimed to you.

Me too!

[Chromeknight]

Hervi told me that he hada two-shot bodyguard action, which had a 50% chance of seeing who was targeting a person and a 50% chance of killing him. He said he was going to use it in the first two nights to make sure it had some use.

Since Hervi generally likes to twist the truth, was this perhaps his conversion role? Maybe he could only convert twice, and each time he had a 50% chance of success? Would that explain the woozy protection result on Petrus on night one? Perhaps that was a failed attempt at a conversion? In which case perhaps Hervi was successful on night two?

I am concerned that someone was converted in the first couple of days before Hervi was killed. It is certainly possible. Was it Cranebeinn? Who knows.

Now we have some context for your lobbing a conversion suspicion at me earlier.

Though why couldn't Hervi have been completely honest about his role? A combo tracker-killer? Sounds useful to the scum.

Plus it's another role that's a twist on a known role, and includes a random element. Maybe my role is not so unbelievable?

Just a quick note that you didn't have that list until very recently, it wasn't part of your reasoning for targeting him. The rest makes sense though.

You are right. I've got things out of sequence there. your comments on sheepishness came later.

Patrekr has had an odd voting history and has been quite adamant in defending Cranebeinn today. Is that scummy or just a townie who thinks Cranebeinn is ok? His thoughts haven't been that useful previously either.

Well, let's get some voting going. For now, I shall vote: Patrekr (Palathadric).

Fun as it would be to OMFGUS Snotra, Dragmall picks up on a suspicion I've had for a while, though without evidence.

vote: Patrekr (Palathadric) sorry Dad.

What's worrying though is that you claim to have been blocked (or at least, that seems like the most likely explanation, and if Hervi knew your role it would make sense to block you), but Dragmall claims that someone else got blocked by the scum blocker on Night Three. I'm torn between whether that means someone is lying or if it could simply be explained by, for example, a one-shot roleblock action.

Dragmall may or may not be protecting a power role by not disclosing who he believes was blocked. I don't know for certain.

However. if it was a power role who claims to have been blocked by scum, perhaps their power also has a twist and or a random element that they do not want to admit to. That would explain the failure of their action without the need for a blocker.

The same reasoning also applies to me. I was not 100% certain I was blocked night three until last night , when I could compare the wording of a successful action with no effect report to an unsuccessful action.

[MagPiesRUs]

Vote Count

Cranebeinn (Chromeknight) - 1 vote (Scubacarrot)

Patrekr (Palathadric) - 2 votes (Dragonator, Chromeknight)

With 13 players remaining, a majority of 7 is required to lynch. 16 hours remain in the day.

[Darkdragon]

I am in agreement with Dragmall on this, the list is short and looking at the past is vital. Snorta, well, she is as overbearing as always which makes me think she isn't hiding anything - and there's this whole role craziness that still needs to be cleared up. It would be a real shame to lynch a PR even if she doesn't want us to know she is a PR Wilhalm, well he is moving up on my suspects list with his unhelpfulness and lowflying - however today is not a day for lynching sheep where there is better information to work with.

Vote: Patrekr (Palathadric)

[Bob]

Vote: Patrekr (Palathadric)

We do need a lynch today...I'm hoping we're right with this one.

[Scouty]

This lynch is going rather fast, and I'm not all that convinced of the case against Patrekr (I will have to give it re-read).

[WhiteFang]

A lynch is unavoidable, and I agreed we need to move forward to see progress of our results.

Vote: Patrekr (Palathadric)

[Scouty]

I think we came to the conclusion that the wooziness was explained by the framer/prankster targeting Petrus on Night One, which would make sense considering Bergulf's investigation plans (comparing Hervi to Petrus). But then again, they also seemed to have blocked Bergulf on Night Two. Do you think they'd risk trying to convert Petrus on the same night as framing/pranking him?

There is also the possibility that the conversion itself is what caused the wooziness in the first place. That's certainly what I thought when I first heard about it. The only thing that makes me not follow that thought is Petrus' big anti-Hervi stance. That is assuming Petrus isn't just keeping up appearances.