Worth the cost to get into 9V now, with a huge investment in PF?

[Locutis]

I have a substantial (in my view) investment into Power Functions trains and track. I currently have about 12 modern PF trains, and about 100 feet of plastic PF track. I have many remotes, motors, etc.

Our group, MBLug, just finished our second display show (my first), and I was very "envious" of many of the electric trains. In addition, I had to borrow track to go through my section as I do not own any 9v track. My section was 16' long, with 2 rail runs through it.

My question is simple: Is it worth it to now go back and buy some 9v trains, track, and accessories even though I have this significant PF investment? I'm a purest to a point (I will bricklink build something that is difficult/impossible to get), and would consider getting pieces to build a Santa Fe or BNSF or Metroliner without making them 9V, or buying them and converting to PF. Should I convert my PF trains to 9v, and pickup some older 9v trains and track, or should I buy older 9v trains (without the track/etc.) and convert them to PF?

The only problem is, by staying "modern", I'm kept out of the displays. My trains are all battery-operated, and the LUG show co-ordinators insist on 9v only, which means none of my fantastic trains can be put on display at a show here unless I convert to 9V (which I currently have no means to do).

What's your opinion? How have you or your LUG handled the (no longer recent) transition from 9v to PF?

Locutis

[1974]

I think it's a shame that your LUG insists on 9V only. What do you (or the other members) say to visitors at shows when they ask about how to get (started) with LEGO trains?

I too have a rather large PF setup (about the same size as yours, including a few trains of the earlier IR type)) and I have no desire to switch to 9V. I do use some 12V motors though, but that's only because of the pistonrods/red colour. They're driven by PF

[SnapLock]

I also have a substantial investment in power functions My Maersk,2x cargo trains, red passenger train,Emerald night, Horizon express all have there own PF & track which includes Double crossover 7996 etc.

I had no interest in 9v for a long time until i managed to pick up a cheap 9v train in a local classifieds.

I really like the ease of how the 9v motor makes any train motorized in seconds.

I run a small 9v loop in the center of my 2x pf loops, and i really enjoy the 9v, however i still prefer the PF due to how easy track & spare parts are to come by.( also due to the massive amounts of money spent lol)

My advice would be try to get a 9v set and have a small loop at home then at least you will have a 9v track etc to use at displays.

[large88]

Besides the track, which you can borrow like you said before, you will be needing several 9v motors. These are not very hard to come by but are very expensive, from 30 to about 50 dollars a piece. Yet the huge cost in batteries for PF might actually make the investment in 9v motors very sensible.

You could try to convince your fellow Lug members to also start using PF in the displays. 9v works great but the motors don't last forever and one day they will all be forced to start using PF instead.

It would make sense if they started to run 9v and PF side by side. If the battery life is a problem you might want to consider running them on separate tracks.

Edited October 23, 2013 by large88

[Paperballpark]

'the LUG show co-ordinators insist on 9v only'

Seriously? Talk about trying to hold back the tide. As user large88 said, at some point they'll be forced to start converting to PF. They're burying their heads in the sand; how is anyone new meant to get to display stuff without shelling out a fortune on old stuff?

[Pief]

I personaly think that PF is better for E locomotives and Diesel locomotives. I find it not so good for steam locomotives especially for a tank engine. But that's personal preference I use both but I have more 9V so I use 9V more

[Locutis]

I think it's a shame that your LUG insists on 9V only. What do you (or the other members) say to visitors at shows when they ask about how to get (started) with LEGO trains?

It was quite an awkward conversation to have. You have to explain that TLG no longer produces electrified tracks and trains, that they are all battery-operated now, but none of the trains on the tracks are battery, they are older or have been modified. Then you have to explain Bricklink and that's where you can only get the electric tracks, and people get soooo confused. Then they ask questions like "why did Lego do that" or "do you have any battery-powered ones on display" and so forth.

My advice would be try to get a 9v set and have a small loop at home then at least you will have a 9v track etc to use at displays.

I had thought about this, too. I can pickup a brand new 9v train and track for around $180 to start. However, my section of the display is 16 feet long, x 2, which means 32 feet of track. That would be approximately $700 worth of electric track, by my cost estimates...

Besides the track, which you can borrow like you said before, you will be needing several 9v motors. These are not very hard to come by but are very expensive, from 30 to about 50 dollars a piece. Yet the huge cost in batteries for PF might actually make the investment in 9v motors very sensible.

You could try to convince your fellow Lug members to also start using PF in the displays. 9v works great but the motors don't last forever and one day they will all be forced to start using PF instead.

It would make sense if they started to run 9v and PF side by side. If the battery life is a problem you might want to consider running them on separate tracks.

When I say I have a significant investment, that includes Li-Ion batteries that recharge (TLG-brand). I'm not spending anything additional to run my PF stuff, as I've already (invested?) spent that money.

'the LUG show co-ordinators insist on 9v only'

Seriously? Talk about trying to hold back the tide. As user large88 said, at some point they'll be forced to start converting to PF. They're burying their heads in the sand; how is anyone new meant to get to display stuff without shelling out a fortune on old stuff?

I would like the ability to make my own layout in advance, using my own plastic track where I want it, without having to buy 9v if I can avoid it. In addition, the flexibility of being able to use flex-track for difficult joins (like between sections at a corner, where the layout doesn't perfectly match up).

I even suggested we look at converting the 9v trains to use a tender or car that has PF in it, and use a partial 9v section that would somehow recharge the Li-Ion battery pack for when it transfers onto the plastic track. Negative.

I'm either stuck in the past, and need to invest in older trains, or I need to modify PF trains to use 9v motors that I currently don't have. Either way, it's a problem.

Locutis

Edited October 23, 2013 by Locutis

[hoeij]

The only problem is, by staying "modern", I'm kept out of the displays. My trains are all battery-operated, and the LUG show co-ordinators insist on 9v only, which means none of my fantastic trains can be put on display at a show here unless I convert to 9V (which I currently have no means to do).

Locutis

The show coordinators are being unreasonable.

Note that you only need one used 9V motor per train. If you have a train with two PF motors, you can replace one of them by a 9V motor, and run an electrical cable from there to the other PF motor. If you leave the PF components in the train, you can run the same train on 9V or on PF, without any changes.

One more thing: even a broken 9V motor would be OK, there was a post some time ago on how to repair them (replacing the DC motor inside with one from a PF motor).

Edited October 23, 2013 by hoeij

[Cara]

Its here: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=83667

[Locutis]

The show coordinators are being unreasonable.

Note that you only need one used 9V motor per train. If you have a train with two PF motors, you can replace one of them by a 9V motor, and run an electrical cable from there to the other PF motor. If you leave the PF components in the train, you can run the same train on 9V or on PF, without any changes.

One more thing: even a broken 9V motor would be OK, there was a post some time ago on how to repair them (replacing the DC motor inside with one from a PF motor).

This would require a significant investment, as I have about 12 trains. I do like the idea of using EITHER on the same train, but others don't like the idea. I do agree, they are a bit unreasonable. It's 9V or get out.

Sadly, we are a small group of only about 15 members, with about 10 show participants. 3 of the participants have trains, all of which are 9v (they were back into Lego much sooner that I was).

I have the Emerald Night, Maersk, Constitution, one each of the City trains since 2004/5. I'm looking into the Horizon Express (x2 or more). I'd like to get the Holiday Train, but I don't know if I should use PF or 9V with that, and if I do, that affects my other trains.

It's a poor situation all around. I even considered not displaying next year, but that negatively affects the group as a whole, and it was a fun experience. Being told I can't use my trains was disappointing (I used one of my PF trains as a prop in a railyard being "unloaded").

Locutis

[dr_spock]

Does your LUG have a budget for LUG owned assets? Maybe the LUG can purchase some 9V motors to lend out for those who wish to run their locos on the "LUG" layout during events and shows. I don't think it is too difficult to swap out PF motors for 9V motors temporarily.

You could also run some 9V tracks through your layout so that 9V trains can go through.

[Locutis]

Does your LUG have a budget for LUG owned assets? Maybe the LUG can purchase some 9V motors to lend out for those who wish to run their locos on the "LUG" layout during events and shows. I don't think it is too difficult to swap out PF motors for 9V motors temporarily.

You could also run some 9V tracks through your layout so that 9V trains can go through.

Our LUG is brand new, with less than 15 members. Membership is free. The LUG itself has zero assets.

Locutis

[roamingstop]

Buy some 9v motors so your models can run on their track - but the investment to convert your layout will probably be prohibitive.

PF lipo can drive 9v motors on PF track and it can look correct (fits inside a Santa Fe but not a bnsf)

9V pickups (many custom ones) can drive PF motors and IR receiver - just make sure a diode bridge is used to solve polarity issues

Rejecting a custom wagon to overcome these issues is a bit extreme but perhaps purist understandable.

If combining layouts then try to have a loop where the different solutions can be tested together and actually demonstrate the results. You might be surprised at the feedback..

Edited October 23, 2013 by roamingstudio

[Mr Bill]

I'm also one that laments Lego's decision to cease the 9v line. But I must move on with the times. I have both and plan my layouts to use both as necessary.

As others here have said, mixing 9v and PF can work (PF tains will run on 9v track) with proper coordination and layout planning. That is the crux of mixing the two. I won't go into the debate over which ismore pwerful or able to pull more either -- fans of each system will insist the one they're a fan of is better and will even post video demonstrations to support thier view. Bottom-line is they are both vaible means for trains and, in true Lego fashion, can work together with (as I said) proper layout planning and coordination.

Keep in mind that Lego 9v straight rails are fairly expensive on the secondary (bricklink) market, as they're in great demand by Lego Train Clubs. For a while one solution was ME Models, who had some nice 3rd party 9v track at fair prices. Unfortunatley they've been out of stock for quite a long time as they seek a new manufacturing partner in their quest to devlop curved rails in the original Lego radius and at least one additional radius. But their straight rails (whicc are all they've offered for sale so far) worked superbly and a PF Train will run on them just fine.

--Mr Bill

[Locutis]

The question still would remain: is it worthwhile for me to spend $700 on electric rail track to use in a display? Or at some point will everyone be convinced to upgrade to PF and that investment would have been worthless?

It's fine to modify PF trains to use 9V and to modify 9V trains to use PF, but unless I have track and power regulars that is sort of pointless. Is it a worthwhile investment to modify my PF trains to 9V?

Locutis

[AndyC]

Our LUG is brand new, with less than 15 members. Membership is free. The LUG itself has zero assets.

To be honest, that's makes it an even more ridiculous proposition and it's fairly ill conceived to begin with. I definitely wouldn't consider it viable to start investing in 9V stuff now, it just doesn't make any sense from a long term perspective.

[Paperballpark]

Honestly? I'd quit the LUG, and look to start my own that wasn't so pig-headed. I could almost understand if the LUG had been going for years and years, but to have only just started and be insisting on that is ridiculous.

Start your own LUG dude, there'll be one or two others in there that agree with you.

Did you say that only 3 of the 15 members have 9V trains? Was I reading that right, or did I misunderstand?

[tiker]

I personally would quit the group due to the silly requirements. There shouldn't be "technology" restrictions when you want to display what you enjoy doing.

If you do decide to purchase 9v trains and track, do it because you want to for your own display. Not because of the requirements of a group.

[Bricktrix]

So why wont they let you run your PF trains along their 9v track? I dont understand the mentality here?

I totally understand if existing members already have a display of which they have previously invested in 9v track and motors with, that they want to display. But, presuming that it is easy for you to change your 16ft display track out to borrowed 9v track to allow them to run through your section, thus adding to the whole display, then whats the problem for them to allow your PF trains to run through their sections?

It sounds to me like someone is being un-reasonable and has an attitude of "its my ball and I'll take it home unless you play how I want"

My advice would be dont even consider investing in 9v just to keep these guys happy. I'm only going from the info you provided and obviously there could be a different side to the story, but from what I've read, if this is only the 2nd show and there is only 3 of them that insist on this, that clubs, Lugs, etc membership and ethos can change like the wind....next year they may be outnumbered by PF guys.

Stick to your guns and what you want to do. Go next year and turn your section into a complete loop and run it yourself, you may find other new members joining who then want to add to yours and the tables could completely turn.

Above all, have the most fun "you" can out of it and try to ignore the stupid politics that can sometimes ruin it for people...rise above it all :)

[codefox421]

It does sound like some members of the LUG are being rather unreasonable. I can also understand how they would want to run 9v through your contribution to the layout (just as much as you probably want to run PF through their sections).

Also, have you considered electrifying your PF track with some kind of metal tape (copper, aluminum, and stainless steal are known to work) for the display? You wouldn't need to borrow 9v track all the time, nor shell out lots of cash for 9v track.

[TaltosVT]

It sounds to me like the issue isn't so much running PF trains on the group's layout, but having PF track on your section of the layout, which would limit the 9v members from running on your section. If you did invest in the 9v track, you'd be able to run both. You wouldn't need to convert your trains, just your track. If it ever does get to a point where the entire group switches to PF, you could either keep running on the 9v track, or sell it to regain the original expense. I don't think you'd lose anything by investing in the 9v.

-Elroy

[SavaTheAggie]

From someone with 20+ 9v motors and hundreds of 9v track pieces...

I'm seriously completely abandoning 9v. Power functions are so much better. More pulling power, better speed options, no motors overheating and dieing. I use rechargeable AA and AAA batteries for my trains, which makes recurring costs next ti zero.

9v trains are only going to age, motors die, and track corrode. Without replacement parts, 9v parts are going to quickly become rarer and more expensive.

Texas Brick Railroad is less than a year old, and we've declared ourselves a Power Functions club that will support legacy systems, but our mainlines will always be plastic.

--Tony

Edited October 24, 2013 by SavaTheAggie

[peterab]

I don't think it's unreasonable of the LUG to expect 9V trains can run around the whole display layout. I think it is very unreasonable that PF trains are excluded, and if the LUG wants you to participate they should encourage you by loaning you enough 9V track to make it possible.

Is the layout they want to display supposed to be a museum piece with only correct to era sets? IMHO these are less interesting than layouts with MOCs, and I have displayed both (though my sets are blue track 4.5V).

[mobi]

Let me add my 2p here.

I am both into Lego (Technic only for long time) and G scale trains (recent hobby - LGB/Playmobil only) in garden.

Most "cheaper" (still hundreds of $£€) locos are track powered only! The battery vs track power debate have been done to deaths on various forums. There is no correct answer - it is what YOU want.

I love PF motors! Electric is a mess in outdoor and loops are pain.

[Locutis]

I have been contacted by members and co-ordinators of the LUG, and apparently I misunderstood. PF is welcome in the layout, just that 9V track is still required for the LUG layout loop.

Locutis