Ragnarök Now - Day Two

[Hinckley]

I'd like to be manly someday. Oink oink!

[CorneliusMurdock]

All right then. If we're gonna all make nice now.

Unvote: Dragmall the Dangerous (Dragonator)

[MagPiesRUs]

Vote Count

Hervi Pudding-Head (Hinckley) - 2 votes (Scouty, Pandora)

Dragmall (Dragonator) - 3 votes (Sandy, badboytje88, Captain Genaro)

Gerrid (Captain Genaro) - 1 votes (fhomess)

With a 22 players remaining, a majority of 12 is required to lynch. There are 20 hours left in the day.

[Scouty]

I need to figure some things out, and I'm questioning my own thoughts from earlier. Unvote: Hervi Pudding-Head (Hinckley)

[fhomess]

Hoy! Now Hervi and Dragmall are all happy to let bygones be bygones! Hopefully, they've come to some mutual understanding that will move us all forward quickly in the days to come.

It would have been voting for no one, voting for Danr, or voting for someone without substantial evidence to back it up. What would you have thought if I went off on a tirade attacking someone who I had no evidence against while all the attention is on Danr? Does that seem like something us townies would do?

What I look for in townies are people who are are using their own thought process to come to their own conclusions given what they know and what has been said. I didn't see that from you. Your third vote to get someone to talk struck me as excessive for the stated purpose. You didn't have any trouble changing your vote to Danr later. Personally, I don't have any problem with people proposing alternatives to a primary lynch target early in the day, as sometimes things change and it's good to have alternative suspicions to follow up on.

I don't think that I came across clearly enough. First, when I posted this, no one seemed to be suspicious enough for me to call them out. Second, I don’t know for a fact who is townie or not, I just have a gut feeling. Wouldn’t it have been stupid for me to have gone out at the beginning of today and said “hey, I think x,y, and z are all townie but I have no evidence to support this.”? What happens of one of those people ends up being scum? Couldn’t someone look at this and think that I’m some sort of investigator or that I’m in cahoots with him? Defending people who haven’t been attacked without ANY evidence other than my word this early on sure doesn’t seem to be the best policy for me.

I guess you could've just left out that bit. Personally, it struck me as trying to look helpful without being so. I would imagine that every one of us here has some people we suspect are Einherjar. That doesn't set you apart. My suspicions were based on the relative lack of perceived effort compared to the quantity of communication.

[Scubacarrot]

Yeah, what the hell is that. What information could this possibly be. Leave the town in the dark, great plan. If you want to do everything behind closed doors, do it, but it will fail.

[Capt. Redblade]

Something has been brought to my attention that I cannot ignore.

Due to some interesting information I have received I'll also be dropping my accusations.

Carl has never been a fan of being out of the loop. If this extremely convincing information is as important as you make it sound, might it not make sense to share it with the rest of us?

[Rick]

Add to that the speech made by Bergulf earlier that frankly sounds like it fell from your lips, not his. I think you were right about Bergulf being coached by his scum team (see how your opinion of him was difficult to pin down?) because you were part of the scum team coaching him.

I noticed that too, especially about these two statements by Bergulf. And now that you point it out, it does sound a lot like Hervi talking. There's something in the first one that specifically caught my attention:

I understand you are suspicious of me, heck I would be suspicious of me if I wasn't me. So I am going to take my time and try to address your suspicion of me as good as I can. I know I am town. I know I messed up choosing my words yesterday, which happens to me more often than is good for me. Danr defended me. Which at first I thought was really sweet. But after thinking it over it looked just odd. Why would you defend someone you don't know on day 1 without knowing if they are worth your defense? At that point it looked like a scummy thing to do. Apparently I wasn't the only one thinking that way. Since we lynched the poor guy. I feel terrible for voting of Danr. Really I do! When he told us his arguments for defending me I realized chances were small we were lynching a servant of Loki. Chance was big we were going to lynch one of our own. Did I change my vote? No. Did anyone else change their vote? Not that I remember, or maybe one or two people, but not enough people changed their vote to safe Danrs life. Do I feel guilty for lynching the poor guy? Sure I do. He tried to help him and eventually got lynched doing so. But there still was a chance he was a servant of Loki. And at that point he was the best option we had. So we went for it.

I highlighted it for you here. Surely that should be 'me', right? Honest mistake? The rest of his statement is surprisingly free of mistakes and his British accent from Day One seems to have disappeared entirely.

And also, you seem to be completely unconcerned that someone who is as inexperienced (presumably) as 'Artemis' as to role-claim to you on day one is also the same sort of person who would attract a blocker the very night after doing so (on night one, no less). The fact that he/she/it was conveniently blocked is fishy as hell, but the fact that this doesn't concern you is a damn-sight fishier. And you're the only person we know that knew of her/his role.

This still has me worried too. Sure, there must be some truth to the story about Artemis and he most likely exists, but it just doesn't add up. As I said earlier, Artmis coming to Hervi on Day One suggests she's inexperienced, but him supposedly attracting a blocker on Night One actually suggests she's someone, if she's indeed town, the scum are afraid of. As I suggested earlier, that could very well be the reason Hervi felt the need to come forward before it was revealed he was one of the few who knew about Artemis' action.

Let me be quite clear. I would reveal Artemis if everyone wanted me to. I do not hear the cry for her name at this point. Same goes for anyone else in the play. People were asking for Hades and I provided his name. Until then, I'm going to view any statement like "You can't even prove these people exist" as trying to get me to prove it by revealing them. They've come to me, I'm protecting them. I'm the first line of defense for these claimed power roles. If everyone thinks I'm making the whole thing up and lynches me, so be it. The first line of defense falls and readies the second line for battle. I will not reveal anybody just to save myself.

No one is asking you to reveal them. If you're Einherjar, you're going to be the one who has to make sense of the whole situation. And you should have realised we can't accurately assess the situation without the details you can't share. So, why come forward with the Artemis/Demeter story in the first place? Did you feel pressured to put it out there before you would be suspected for blocking Artemis? Did Dragmall's claim give you an excuse to write a play, so you could 'come forward' about Artemis too? I still fail to see the link between the Artemis/Demeter story and your accusations against Dragmall. I agree, the existence of Artemis' role makes it more likely there's a second scum faction (but we can't be sure of that at all at this stage, especially since Demeter doesn't turn out to be an investigator after all), but what does it tell us about the possibility of there being a neutral or a serial killer? I can try asking you a third time, but I doubt you'll have an answer now.

Anyway. Yes, I understand why Hervi is being cagey with Atermis' identity

I'm sure we all understand that.

My thought regarding the complexity of Atermis' power is that it helps the town achieve results. Perhaps it does not matter if Atermis is blocked, but the action only fails if one of the two targets is blocked.

To me, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense if he's an investigator. Of course the result is going to be dependent on both of them actually being 'readable', which wouldn't be the case if they were out of town the hall, but it just doesn't seem logical that a block, which prevents someone from carrying out any action they may have, prevents an investigator from getting a reading on them. Right now, it sounds more like you're defending Hervi.

Did Hervi feel the need to defend Bergulf so vigorously on Day One because he had an important action?

Vote: Bergulf (badboytje88)

Much like my wife and third-person boy, I'm curious to know what happened in private that made both Dragmall and Hervi drop their accusations.

[Scouty]

I still fail to see the link between the Artemis/Demeter story and your accusations against Dragmall.

I don't think there ever was any link between the two. To me it seemed like Hervi presented the Artemis/Demeter story as one thing and also included the thing about Hades (which is quite separated from the rest of the play) as something else to go on. If he caught wind of the neutral, I'm sure he'd at least include it in his play somehow, even if it was somewhat wrong...

[Palathadric]

Rurik makes some excellent points. I think even if Hervi is not scum, there is still a huge possibility that old Bergulf is. I'm a bit stuck between him and Gerrid, but I think I'll follow up my vote from yesterday by:

Vote: Bergulf (badboytje88)

Hervi and Dragmall is what you "discovered" or whatever about one another something that needs to be kept secret? If so, I can leave it at that for now. If not, I'd really like to understand what the devil is going on.

[Chromeknight]

I noticed that too, especially about these two statements by Bergulf. And now that you point it out, it does sound a lot like Hervi talking. There's something in the first one that specifically caught my attention:

I highlighted it for you here. Surely that should be 'me', right? Honest mistake? The rest of his statement is surprisingly free of mistakes and his British accent from Day One seems to have disappeared entirely.

If I recall correctly, Didn't Bergulf originally get in trouble for not parsing english persons correctly?

To me, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense if he's an investigator. Of course the result is going to be dependent on both of them actually being 'readable', which wouldn't be the case if they were out of town the hall, but it just doesn't seem logical that a block, which prevents someone from carrying out any action they may have, prevents an investigator from getting a reading on them. Right now, it sounds more like you're defending Hervi.

Hervi's a big boy; he can defend himself. I was defending myself, coming forward with an explination of my PM, to forstall any turning on me. I responded to Hervi via PM after reading the play and spotting my words coming from Demeter's mouth, and then posted in public when he persisted in chasing Dragmall over what I thought was a misunderstanding, based on the assumption that two investigators (including one with a convoluted action) meant there was a third faction, a cult.

As for my thought on why artemis' power is the way it is, it is a thought. I am not nearly as experienced at these types of things as others. So if you say it doesn't make sense game-wise, then I'll listen. I was only thinking out loud, trying to understand for myself.

[Fugazi]

I hope that my statement can clear up any confusion there is between myself and Finn.

I never intended to claim otherwise.

It would have been voting for no one, voting for Danr, or voting for someone without substantial evidence to back it up. What would you have thought if I went off on a tirade attacking someone who I had no evidence against while all the attention is on Danr? Does that seem like something us townies would do?

　

　

　

I don't think that I came across clearly enough. First, when I posted this, no one seemed to be suspicious enough for me to call them out. Second, I don’t know for a fact who is townie or not, I just have a gut feeling. Wouldn’t it have been stupid for me to have gone out at the beginning of today and said “hey, I think x,y, and z are all townie but I have no evidence to support this.”? What happens of one of those people ends up being scum? Couldn’t someone look at this and think that I’m some sort of investigator or that I’m in cahoots with him? Defending people who haven’t been attacked without ANY evidence other than my word this early on sure doesn’t seem to be the best policy for me.

If there is any more confusion or if you have any questions, just ask.

Moving on to the Hervi/Dragmall issue. I am inclined to believe Hervi. While his initial claim seems to be somewhat extreme, it doesn't sound like something that the scum would try to do. It draws far too much attention to the accuser and only has the possibility for one town death before we all turned around to lynch the accuser. Considering that they already lost one of their members and we're only on the second day, it seems like a rather rash plan that has too small of a return. If it was a less experienced individual, I might be willing to believe that the scum are simply using them but Hervi has done this for far too long in his past life to be easily tricked. For these reasons, it seems to me that Hervi is telling the truth and I'm inclined to believe him.

Vote: Dragmall (Dragonator)

Hervi, if Dragmall turns out to be an honest townie, you better have a real dam good explanation as to why we shouldn’t lynch you.

Sorry to quote you so extensively Gerrid, but why are you speaking in two voices? I hear you first sentences in your usual manly womanly voice, yet the rest of your statement is more subdued, as if you were borrowing someone else's voice. Or to make myself clear, as if you were simply copying a statement prepared elsewhere, perhaps in some scummy meeting place? Somewhere where you could polish you reply under the scrutiny of your cultist friends, until it becomes this perfect example of rational defence you served us with? Let's hear you explaining this one, with the help of your mentors.

Vote: Gerrid (Captain Genaro)

[Hinckley]

So, why come forward with the Artemis/Demeter story in the first place?

You know my theory is that the Town needs as much info as possible and it's the best way to get everyone engaged. Too much back door dealings can only lead to the garden. This way is better because it puts everyone's balls on the table, so to speak...so we can all play table tennis.

Sorry to quote you so extensively Gerrid, but why are you speaking in two voices? I hear you first sentences in your usual manly womanly voice, yet the rest of your statement is more subdued, as if you were borrowing someone else's voice. Or to make myself clear, as if you were simply copying a statement prepared elsewhere, perhaps in some scummy meeting place? Somewhere where you could polish you reply under the scrutiny of your cultist friends, until it becomes this perfect example of rational defence you served us with? Let's hear you explaining this one, with the help of your mentors.

Vote: Gerrid (Captain Genaro)

Coached or not, the second defense needed to explain the possible slip-up of the first one:

I do have some ideas as to who is innocent but as none of them have been accused, I don’t see any reason to defend them.

Anyone would do better than the first time to do a course correction on that. From the first time it was pointed out, I agree that this statement appears to come from the mindset of a Scum. I think this is the best lead to follow. He hasn't defended anyone all day but himself. He's offered no opinion on the other votes. So who does he observe to be innocent then? Is he just Scum sitting back and watching two Townies battle it out?

vote: Gerrid (Captain Genaro)

This has been a very active and interesting second Day. We have plenty of other situations to monitor as the game progresses.

[Scubacarrot]

Hervi, how about you answer the legitimate questions instead of scapegoating someone before he had a chance to talk, you are messing with everybody, and I don't like it one bit. Or you don't want to let out how you are spewing nonsense in private. You are full of proverbial shit. I doubt most members of your little greek pantheon exist, and I'm pretty sure you are thinking us all fools. You occupy most of the day with your crusade against someone, and then when worst comes to worst, you say: Oops, I know something now, better not explain, let's vote a sheep out.

It's BS.

Oh, and Vote: Hervi Pudding-Head (Hinckley)

For nonsensical behaviour and fabricated megablocks

[Hinckley]

Hervi, how about you answer the legitimate questions instead of scapegoating someone before he had a chance to talk, you are messing with everybody, and I don't like it one bit. Or you don't want to let out how you are spewing nonsense in private. You are full of proverbial shit. I doubt most members of your little greek pantheon exist, and I'm pretty sure you are thinking us all fools. You occupy most of the day with your crusade against someone, and then when worst comes to worst, you say: Oops, I know something now, better not explain, let's vote a sheep out.

It's BS.

Sorry I'm not giving you the names of my allies in private. I have no reason to trust you and your threats aren't doing anything to convince me. I understand you want to be in the inner circle and you want to be in control of things, but your aggressive behavior is the same behavior I fell for in a past life and I do not care to fall for it again. Until I have reason to trust you, I will not tell you anything. This is exactly what I've already told you in private.

[Darkdragon]

I'm glad the whole Hervi/Dragmall thing is over, that was really confusing. This is why it's good to talk things out here and bring up any suspicions we have.

All that talk of a third party was scary, but now that we are kinda sure there isn't one, what I'm really worried about even moreso is the fact that Bergulf, who was under such suspicion yesterday was not being talked about today. We've had a few people accusing others but it's like someone was stearing everything away from him today. Almost like they are protecting him, a scum teammate? We know now that Danr was town, and yet the crowd seems happy not looking back at what caused him to get accused and who really started that? He was defending someone, maybe someone who even messaged him asking for help, we can't know for sure but it seems likely.

Now I'm seeing that more people are looking back at his strange behavior over the last two days and coming to the same conclusions. This has been a strange day full of so many accusations, but I think we need to resolve yesterday's issues first and then we can see the clear choices for tomorrow.

Vote: Bergulf (badboytje88)

[Scubacarrot]

Pulling that one, eh? Because why answer people when you can avoid the subject. You know what, I will tell everyone what I told you. I had not decided wether or not Hervi was scum, Dragmall was scum, both were innocent or, call me crazy, that both were scum and it was just an elaborate ruse to get everyone to trust the one that survived the ordeal.

Hervi's behaviour to me seems like a lot of circumstantial BS, relying on people we don't know exist, and a lot of odd circumstances. AND COME ON. Why would you take someone saying: He might be neutral, herpaderp, serious? I jokingly told you on day one I was the serial killer, you did not follow up on that, did you now?

So I told Pig boy, Look, if you want me to believe you, why not give me the identity of one of your people, let's say Poseidon?

So Pig boy told me, Okay, but Poseidon has an ability, so I'd rather not share his identity, how about someone else,

So I said: Sure, but it better not be that guy I suspect!!

Then Pig boy clammed up.

So there. I don't need you to trust me, because your talk is all lies anyway.

I suggest you start talking about this reason why you suddenly don't suspect each other anymore, that's a thing, that's important, and I see no reason why not. Even if it was not all megablocks, what could it possibly be the scum, who are out here somewhere, can't know, but the person you suspected sooo much you wasted our entire day with it can.

[Waterbrick Down]

I for one am somewhat disappointed. I thought there was actually something going on behind the scenes that smoothed things out between you two, Hervi and Dragmall, that would lead to a definite catching of scum, but this? While I'm more trusting of you than Snorta, again I expected more, this sincerily looks like a last minute vote against a sheep, it could yield us something, but it's more of a shot in the dark I feel as of the moment. I'll go back and read through it all again, but I'm not yet convinced as it concerns Gerrid.

[Hinckley]

So I told Pig boy, Look, if you want me to believe you, why not give me the identity of one of your people, let's say Poseidon?

What you said, and why I don't trust you, was "I'll vote for Dragmall, if you tell me who Poseidon is."

I don't respond well to blackmail and I find it very telling that you would leave your bullying tactics out.

[Scubacarrot]

And for the record, I was perfectly calm, until I was being bullshitted.

No that's not true, I said I might be more trusting to you, and hence see your side, and if I trust you and see your side, I would probably vote for Dragmall, if you got me some colleteral, Don't go lying now. Because what you just said is a lie, and you know it.

Call it blackmail, whatever. Look if I care. You are scum.

You are avoiding most of what I say, and while I don't think most cliches work, that's a scum tactic.

I can go posting the entire conversation, I had a private, impartial bard write everything down, but do you want to do that? It will turn out in my favour, dude.

[Hinckley]

And for the record, I was perfectly calm, until I was being bullshitted.

No that's not true, I said I might be more trusting to you, and hence see your side, and if I trust you and see your side, I would probably vote for Dragmall, if you got me some colleteral, Don't go lying now. Because what you just said is a lie, and you know it.

Well, stay calm. Looking back at it directly your offer is a cross between the two. You said something, paraphrasing, "If you and your inner pantheon want Dragmall lynched, you don't have the votes to achieve that. It would go a long way in convincing me if you gave me the identity of one of the deities and I could confirm your story with then."

Can you agree that this sounds more like what you said? I'm protecting people, potentially, with power roles. You come trying to force your way in. I tell you I don't trust you and you keep pressuring me. I'm going to take that as threatening. You say every time we talk that I'm the most paranoid player in Valjalla. Well, it's not paranoia, it's being careful. I don't respond well to someone trying to pressure me. I don't like the way you are trying to force your way in. You can make a decision without me revealing anyone to you. If you are Scum and I give you just one identity we could lose someone important. Why would you feel the need to push so hard for someone's identity right now. I told you once we confirmed each other I'd be more than happy to work with you. I was on my way to trusting you. Why do you feel the need to keep pushing? It's suspicious that you need that identity now now now.

Since then Demeter came forward and confirmed his part of the story. Wasn't that enough? You want all of the deities?

[Scubacarrot]

I hope you don't think that will cut it. I'm pressuring you, because it's obviously needed. If you are really town, this is no way to respect the rest of the townies. You waste the whole day, then basically split the vote with you buddies right at the end, without telling the reason why the original plan suddenly stops existing? No way, skraeling, no way.

No it does not cut it.

When do you expect me to want it? Tomorrow? No. Your verifying is megablocks. I told you I am vanilla, are you going to waste your investigator on that? Unlikely. And that's even assuming you aren't scum.

Perhaps this Artemis exists, but what's the chance she'll be blocked or killed tonight. You tell me, boyo.

[Hinckley]

I told you I am vanilla,

I must've missed that. Now you're verified.

[Etzel]

Wow, votes are cast in all directions now. I get a feeling the Servents of Loki tries to make us spread the votes over several suspects to make sure none is convicted. Right now we have 3 votes each for Dragmall, Gerrid and Bergulf, and 2 votes for Hervi. I feel reluctant to vote for either Hervi or Dragmall at the moment since most of the discussion around those are based on misunderstandings and behavior from previous games of life. Gerrid and Bergulf are more likely to come up as scum I think, and my suspicions of Bergulf from the first day is enough to earn him a vote today as well.

Vote: Bergulf (badboytje88)

[Scubacarrot]

I must've missed that. Now you're verified.

This is your thing all dang day, you pick one part of what you think takes the least effort to respond to, completely out of context and you post. What I meant, and is obvious from the get go, will you spend a valuable investigator's night on a vanilla or on a possible power role. You tell me.

How about you start responding to everything? Or would that make you too suspicious? Or are you too good for that?

By the way, how are you so sure about Aphrodite and Poseidon? Oh that's right, because they don't exist. Silly of me.