Yakuza Family - Day 3

[CMP]

So you are saying there can't be an actionless scum member that is a townie as well? Thanks for pointing that out, never would have guessed that.

No, I'm pointing out your flawed logic in thinking it would be overkill for the role cop to get allegiances as well. It can be assumed from the result of you being Goon you're scum. The fact that you wouldn't believe this story as a townie pretty much proves you're scum. Or the dumbest, most paranoid townie who ever lived. You can take some things with a grain of salt, but you can't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Of course, I'm being very biased, since I would say the same thing in your totally screwed position. Oh, well.

[Peanuts]

No, I'm pointing out your flawed logic in thinking it would be overkill for the role cop to get allegiances as well. It can be assumed from the result of you being Goon you're scum. The fact that you wouldn't believe this story as a townie pretty much proves you're scum. Or the dumbest, most paranoid townie who ever lived. You can take some things with a grain of salt, but you can't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Well, if I was a goon, my action would be nothing, as well as the one of a vanilla townie, enabling me to claim vanilla townie. That's the problem with the role cop, you can't have a person clarified if they are vanilla, only if they've got an undoubtly townie role like investigator.

That's why the investigator is usually assessed as more useful than the role cop, because of this very flaw. A role cop who also works as investigator would be overkill.

And according to Norio we have already three investigators. I'm sure if one of Norio's investigators would have found this out, he'd have told us in the morning. Which means there'd be a fourth investigator, if Akira was right. Can you believe that? If so, you are most propably the most naive townie ever. Or scum. Whatever.

And as for not looking a gift horse in the mouth: That's just another way of saying 'Why should I think, let that dragon do that.'

[Bob]

And why exactly haven't you told us there was a role cop when Yasu claimed on day 1? We lynched her anyway, so there's nothing lost, but I expect that a loyal Yakuza would have told us, just to make sure we actually kill her.

So either you are lying, or your role + allegiance cop is lying to you and you are incredibly stupid. I tend to the first one.

I wasn't in contact with this person at this time, I didn't know. I'm absolutely not lying, you won't twist your way out of this one.

[Peanuts]

I wasn't in contact with this person at this time, I didn't know. I'm absolutely not lying, you won't twist your way out of this one.

Was there anyone else in contact with that person at that time?

And my other, more valid points still stand. How comes you only address the weakest point of my defense?

[CMP]

Well, if I was a goon, my action would be nothing, as well as the one of a vanilla townie, enabling me to claim vanilla townie. That's the problem with the role cop, you can't have a person clarified if they are vanilla, only if they've got an undoubtly townie role like investigator.

That's why the investigator is usually assessed as more useful than the role cop, because of this very flaw. A role cop who also works as investigator would be overkill.

And according to Norio we have already three investigators. I'm sure if one of Norio's investigators would have found this out, he'd have told us in the morning. Which means there'd be a fourth investigator, if Akira was right. Can you believe that? If so, you are most propably the most naive townie ever. Or scum. Whatever.

And as for not looking a gift horse in the mouth: That's just another way of saying 'Why should I think, let that dragon do that.'

It's role cop, not action cop. There's a difference.

So you're stating you're innocent because you think one particular role is overpowered? I can understand if it was a choose-your-own-side blocker, but role cop isn't a very uncommon role.

Norio says he has 3 ways to confirm townie (I think, it's been a while since he said that) but I do not believe he said outright 'I have 3 investigators'.

I was referring to the fact that if you were townie, you wouldn't be this doubtful about this situations. But again, there's not much else for you to defend yourself with or against. It's not a steep incline of an accusation that you can scale yourself, it's more like a brick wall that'll take a hell of a lot to climb over.

[Bob]

Was there anyone else in contact with that person at that time?

And my other, more valid points still stand. How comes you only address the weakest point of my defense?

Not that I know of, and because your other points of defense are so hastily crafted that it's useless, but if I must:

"A goon is a member of scum with no actions!"

Yes, while that is true, a goon might be a role in this game. Don't historically quote past games as evidence. Every game is different with its own set of individual rules, and while most games are similar, there can be deviations in them.

"A role-cop knows the allegiance of the player and the role! That's unfair!"

I never said I knew your allegiance, I said that your result was "Goon". Automatically that means you're a part of the Mutineers, unless you're apart of a third faction and just slipped up.

"A role-cop that is an investigator is overkill!"

Yes, that's true. Goon is not a town role, unless we've entered a parallel universe.

"But Akira, you're lying!"

Ah, the most classic defense ever.

[iamded]

Vote: Someone other than Minoru (VolcanicPanic)

That was a joke. I'm not that daft. Looks like easy pickings today.

Vote: Minoru (VolcanicPanic)

I'm not really understanding this Goon thing though. 'Goon' is a term for a scum with a distinct lack of role, it isn't really a role in itself. Which leaves me puzzling as to how a role cop can determine someone is a goon, when it should have just determined said target has 'no action' or something. Revealing them as a 'Goon' elevates the role-cop ability to investigator as well. It's hard to believe.

[CMP]

I'm not really understanding this Goon thing though. 'Goon' is a term for a scum with a distinct lack of role, it isn't really a role in itself. Which leaves me puzzling as to how a role cop can determine someone is a goon, when it should have just determined said target has 'no action' or something. Revealing them as a 'Goon' elevates the role-cop ability to investigator as well. It's hard to believe.

Again, a role is not the same as an action. Paranoid Gun Owner doesn't have an action, but it's a really dangerous role, as an example.

[Peanuts]

It's role cop, not action cop. There's a difference.

You really believe this, don't you? Unfortunately I can't find my more detailed book called MafiaWiki, but I've got a similar book which reads:

An investigative role that informs the player of a target's role, i.e. Cop, Doctor, Vanilla, Tracker, etc. A rolecop is generally more useful for scum but it can be used as town role as well.

Not to be confused with Flavor cop which is more flavor based and more useless.

If this action actually gave you the ability to determine the target's allegiance, how could it possibly be more useful for scum?

So you're stating you're innocent because you think one particular role is overpowered? I can understand if it was a choose-your-own-side blocker, but role cop isn't a very uncommon role.

No, I am saying that this role is so overpowered it's impossible, so Akira is lying about that result, and he is lying about not knowing what a goon is. And if he is lying, he is scum. And if he is scum, this means I'm not.

Norio says he has 3 ways to confirm townie (I think, it's been a while since he said that) but I do not believe he said outright 'I have 3 investigators'.

You are right. Good, so we don't have three ways to confirm townies, but four. Still too much to be true. The scum wouldn't have any chance against us.

I was referring to the fact that if you were townie, you wouldn't be this doubtful about this situations. But again, there's not much else for you to defend yourself with or against. It's not a steep incline of an accusation that you can scale yourself, it's more like a brick wall that'll take a hell of a lot to climb over.

Okay, for starters I'm doubtful because I know it's wrong. But I see you can't know that. But it wouldn't make any sence if I didn't know I was Yakuza either. Do you really don't find it fishy that we are so strong?

"A goon is a member of scum with no actions!"

Yes, while that is true, a goon might be a role in this game. Don't historically quote past games as evidence. Every game is different with its own set of individual rules, and while most games are similar, there can be deviations in them.

That's not past games, that's nomenclature in general. If nomenclature changes, tell me, what use does the role cop have? He wouldn't know much more after investigating. Except if he could precisely tell which role is scum and which is town, but in that case he'd be a less effective investigator.

"A role-cop knows the allegiance of the player and the role! That's unfair!"

I never said I knew your allegiance, I said that your result was "Goon". Automatically that means you're a part of the Mutineers, unless you're apart of a third faction and just slipped up.

So, assuming I was a "goon", you'd now know I am scum. No matter which side I am on, Mutineer or possible third party, you'd still not what you need to know to lynch me. Anything else is details.

"A role-cop that is an investigator is overkill!"

Yes, that's true. Goon is not a town role, unless we've entered a parallel universe.

See, that's what I am saying. What would the scum do if we've got four roles which can find them?

"But Akira, you're lying!"

Ah, the most classic defense ever.

Either you or whoever claimed to you. I'd guess you.

[CMP]

You really believe this, don't you? Unfortunately I can't find my more detailed book called MafiaWiki, but I've got a similar book which reads:

If this action actually gave you the ability to determine the target's allegiance, how could it possibly be more useful for scum?

No, I am saying that this role is so overpowered it's impossible, so Akira is lying about that result, and he is lying about not knowing what a goon is. And if he is lying, he is scum. And if he is scum, this means I'm not.

You are right. Good, so we don't have three ways to confirm townies, but four. Still too much to be true. The scum wouldn't have any chance against us.

Okay, for starters I'm doubtful because I know it's wrong. But I see you can't know that. But it wouldn't make any sence if I didn't know I was Yakuza either. Do you really don't find it fishy that we are so strong?

You're really not getting thid. It's not outright stating you're scum. It's stating that you have a scum's role. Ergo, you're scum. The Godfather would probably come up as Godfather, but the scum blocker would only come up as Roleblocker. So no, I believe this is a very lucky instance, not a result of an overpowered role.

Oh, and it can be more useful for scum because of what I've just stated. Townies won't know whether a Roleblocker or (in some circumstances) Protector is scum or townie. The scum, on the other hand, don't need that little bit of often-missing information, for obvious reasons. When they find an allegiance ambiguous role, it pretty much spells death for that person. As a townie role cop, that mistake usually can't be made.

Which brings us back to the point of which I believe the Role Cop's been lucky enough to find the Goon, which is not allegiance ambiguous. If you want to blame a role, blame your own.

It's not overpowered. That is how the Role Cop operates in these sorts of games situations.

Norio's experienced enough at this game to know when somebody's townie, whether by a cop, a role cop, a watcher, or (formerly) a blocker.

Hey, that's four different roles he can use to confirm townies! What are the odds?

[def]

Even if we knew it was true, it would still be safer to vote out Minoru and have the vig take out Isamu. (and, if we have one, maybe have a Watcher target Isamu in case he's protected)

Scum rarely have protection roles, since they are rarely the target of night actions.

Well, if I was a goon, my action would be nothing, as well as the one of a vanilla townie, enabling me to claim vanilla townie. That's the problem with the role cop, you can't have a person clarified if they are vanilla, only if they've got an undoubtly townie role like investigator.

That's why the investigator is usually assessed as more useful than the role cop, because of this very flaw. A role cop who also works as investigator would be overkill.

And according to Norio we have already three investigators. I'm sure if one of Norio's investigators would have found this out, he'd have told us in the morning. Which means there'd be a fourth investigator, if Akira was right. Can you believe that? If so, you are most propably the most naive townie ever. Or scum. Whatever.

And as for not looking a gift horse in the mouth: That's just another way of saying 'Why should I think, let that dragon do that.'

It's true, if you were a goon, your night action should be nothing. But that's not to say that is how the kami-sama are dealing with this. This is our first life in the land of the rising sun, after all. If that is how it was done, it's unconventional, but conceivable.

As for my "investigators", only one is a proper investigator. The other two are roles with an investigative side-effect. But I have had no contact with a role-cop. On day one, I did say that if there was a scum role-cop, there would be a town role-cop though Score one for metagaming!

Anyway, if the role-cop is claiming to Akira, it's worth it to vig kill Isamu. In the morning, Akira and his role-cop will be held responsible if it goes poorly (as Minoru is being held responsible today). So, I urge Akira to share his info with a third party in case the "role-cop" is a liar, and the scum take him out to tie up loose ends.

Vote: Minoru (VolcanicPanic)

Neutral blocker

[Bob]

No, I am saying that this role is so overpowered it's impossible, so Akira is lying about that result, and he is lying about not knowing what a goon is. And if he is lying, he is scum. And if he is scum, this means I'm not.

So, basically you're saying that this result is impossible, so thus I'm lying and you're obviously a saint. I'll say it again, in big bold letters for you Isamu:

Not Every Game Is Similar! Just Because A Goon is A Vanilla Scum in other games Doesn't mean that it's a Vanilla Scum in this one!

[Brickdoctor]

Scum rarely have protection roles, since they are rarely the target of night actions.

It's still a possibility, though. A watcher would just ensure that the Scum don't try anything while the vig kills Isamu.

Not Every Game Is Similar! Just Because A Goon is A Vanilla Scum in other games Doesn't mean that it's a Vanilla Scum in this one!

'Goon' isn't just a word. It's the name of a role. Not a special role. A common role. If its meaning constantly changes, what's the purpose of having that name in the first place? It would be pointless. And if names of roles constantly changed, role cops would be useless.

[def]

It's still a possibility, though. A watcher would just ensure that the Scum don't try anything while the vig kills Isamu.

It's in the realm of possibility, but I think it's very unlikely. I would rather the watcher target one of the people assumed town at this point.

[Peanuts]

You're really not getting thid. It's not outright stating you're scum. It's stating that you have a scum's role. Ergo, you're scum. The Godfather would probably come up as Godfather, but the scum blocker would only come up as Roleblocker. So no, I believe this is a very lucky instance, not a result of an overpowered role.

Oh, and it can be more useful for scum because of what I've just stated. Townies won't know whether a Roleblocker or (in some circumstances) Protector is scum or townie. The scum, on the other hand, don't need that little bit of often-missing information, for obvious reasons. When they find an allegiance ambiguous role, it pretty much spells death for that person. As a townie role cop, that mistake usually can't be made.

Which brings us back to the point of which I believe the Role Cop's been lucky enough to find the Goon, which is not allegiance ambiguous. If you want to blame a role, blame your own.

So, what is the chance of the scum having a role that might be town? There'd be blocker. There'd be Role Cop, but if a Role Cop gets Role Cop as result, he ought to realize that the other Role Cop is a scum Role Cop. There'd be protector, but just how likely is that?

So, there are two roles which can be confused at worst. But if you get Goon or Godfather, the town has hit Jackpot as well, while with Vanilla you at least have a proven townie. So except for those two roles, pretty much every invetsigation results in either a confirmed townie or scum. Sounds a bit stronger for Town to me.

So, basically you're saying that this result is impossible, so thus I'm lying and you're obviously a saint. I'll say it again, in big bold letters for you Isamu:

Not Every Game Is Similar! Just Because A Goon is A Vanilla Scum in other games Doesn't mean that it's a Vanilla Scum in this one!

And I'll say it again, in normal letters:

If the nomenclature changes, what use is the role cop? If he can find definite town roles and definite scum roles, he simply is a less useful investigator. If not, he isn't even that. What would a role cop gain from his result?

[def]

Sounds a bit stronger for Town to me.

It sounds like an analysis of game mechanics that the scum can take up with kami-sama after things are over. But it doesn't sound implausible to me.

[Capt. Redblade]

Vote: Someboy who's mildly suspicious, but is not Minoru.

Unvote: Someboy who's mildly suspicious, but is not Minoru.

Vote: A second person who's mildly suspicious, but is also not Minoru.

Unvote: A second person who's mildly suspicious, but is also not Minoru.

Can't say I don't learn from my mistakes.

Vote: Minoru (VolcanicPanik)

[swils]

Vote: Someboy who's mildly suspicious, but is not Minoru.

Unvote: Someboy who's mildly suspicious, but is not Minoru.

Vote: A second person who's mildly suspicious, but is also not Minoru.

Unvote: A second person who's mildly suspicious, but is also not Minoru.

Can't say I don't learn from my mistakes.

Vote: Minoru (VolcanicPanik)

This, really?

I know I've been far from the most vocal in the temple, but come on. Surely, your tiny lizard brain grew a few sizes to match your body, didn't it? You start the day by suggesting something that had already been all-but disproven, and then you mimic Aiko?

You've got to be kidding me.

[Brickdoctor]

This, really?

I know I've been far from the most vocal in the temple, but come on. Surely, your tiny lizard brain grew a few sizes to match your body, didn't it? You start the day by suggesting something that had already been all-but disproven, and then you mimic Aiko?

You've got to be kidding me.

She's just trying to hide the fact that she's a sheep. Or maybe Scum. Or both.

Though, to be fair, there's not much to discuss right now.

[swils]

Doing a pretty poor job at hiding it..

Well, there's perhaps nothing for today, as it seems Minoru's gotten the big vote, but there's still plenty to look at in terms of the suspicions raised today. As soon as I get a chance, I, at least, will be going to consult the wise ramen-bowl of remembrance again to reflect upon some of the past days' events. It was discussed earlier today, but fell by the wayside: Nobuo's determination against Ichirou, and then there's Isamu's votes and accusations to consider, if the claim against him bears truth (neither of which, admittedly, have I looked at in depth yet, so this may be jumping the gun). Or maybe all of this has been discussed to length, but behind closed doors.

[Capt. Redblade]

This, really?

I know I've been far from the most vocal in the temple, but come on. Surely, your tiny lizard brain grew a few sizes to match your body, didn't it? You start the day by suggesting something that had already been all-but disproven, and then you mimic Aiko?

You've got to be kidding me.

So I skip over the occasional post in my mad dash to catch up. So sue me.

[Rick]

It's true, if you were a goon, your night action should be nothing. But that's not to say that is how the kami-sama are dealing with this. This is our first life in the land of the rising sun, after all. If that is how it was done, it's unconventional, but conceivable.

If it's not too sensitive info (i.e., revealing a role we have that the scum might not yet know about), what was the result the role cop got on night 1? This perhaps sheds some more light on the type of results the role cop gets.

[Brickdoctor]

So I skip over the occasional post in my mad dash to catch up. So sue me.

We can do better than that. We could kill you. We just have more important things to deal with right now.

Seriously, if you were actually a Townie, you might care enough to try to understand things instead of going on a 'mad dash to catch up'. No one's going to think any less of you if you take a few extra minutes to read things carefully as you catch up. That you try to hurry makes me think that you might be trying not to appear inactive - and those who try to appear inactive are usually Scum trying to stick around the middle of the pack.

[Eskallon]

Vote: Minoru (volcanicpanik)

Theres no point repeating the reasons outlined in the 30 posts above me since you have all ready read them all. (hopefully)

[swils]

So I skip over the occasional post in my mad dash to catch up. So sue me.

Seems more like you skipped over every comment made today that wasn't "Vote: Minoru".

Plus, uh, what Emi-san said.