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aleluca

LDD 4.2.5 crash!

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Hello everybody, i'm Ale and I'm a newer over here, i wanna share with you one bug very boring in LDD. The brick 1x1 with knobs (4733, 47905, 87087) once joint with a techinc brick 1x1 (6541) if try to move them together, LDD crash (you can seee the picture attached)!!! :hmpf_bad:

After you open it again, it's going to remove them from your design coz it considers wrong assebly!!! This bug comes from the ver.3 till the newest release 4.2.5!!!!

This is very pity bug coz this way to build parts is very common in many project... Anybody has some suggestion? Or found it before?

Ciao

post-17438-132710688072.jpg

Edited by aleluca

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Strictly speaking it's what TLG call "out of system" and is often referred to by AFOLs as an illegal building technique. There is a very slight height difference between the stud on the side of the brick and the hole in a Technic brick which means the top and bottom of the bricks are slightly out of line. The consequence of this is that using it in a model can place the bricks under undesirable levels of stress and potentially damage parts.

It's unfortunate that LDD crashes when you do this, but the correct behaviour* would actually be for LDD to prohibit this type of connection entirely, so "fixing" the bug probably isn't going to help you anyway.

*strictly speaking it can be a legal technique as long as nothing is connected above or below and it is only a single stud, but that's an extremely uncommon scenario anyway

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Hello Andy, from a strict "view point" you're definitelly right! but the reality is that this technique is often used! Obviously truly u can have some assembly stress but it can be absorbed by the natural tolerance (and consequentelly airgap!) of the briks themselves! However i'm aslo sure that if "tomorrow" a official LEGO designer will employ this techique in some creation, this bug will be solve imediatelly!!! What do you think?

I'm a strong supporter of the maximum freedom during the design coz the creativity must never limited, so as the choice to don't let user customize the parts or create a newer...obvious these won't able to be purchased to the official LEGO shop....so.... ok but i guess this is not the right topic to speak!

However thanks very much for your anwser ... i appreciate :wink:

Ciao

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However i'm aslo sure that if "tomorrow" a official LEGO designer will employ this techique in some creation, this bug will be solve imediatelly!!! What do you think?

I think they will not support it anyway!

After all this happens already: some set uses techniques that LDD will not support and probably will never support.

It is not a matter of opportunity. There is an exhaustive document that examine and explain illegal techniques.

So, why does LDD not support that, even if these techniques are widely used by MOCers and even in official lego set (mostly in old sets, anyway)?

I think the reason is that they want LDD to be a tool for make lego creations using legal techniques. What I mean is that with LDD they want to promote the use of legal techniques only.

I'm one of that LDD users that don't appreciate this philosophy! I'd like that LDD will allow to do everything is possible to do with real bricks. But I think my desire will remain unsatisfied! :cry_sad:

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I think the optimal solution would be to have a toggle that would allow parts to collide/intersect. I've run into two bugged pieces (actual bugs, not illegal builds, reported in the bug thread) just today that a setting like this would resolve.

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Well, there goes Psiaki's X-wing. :cry_sad:

I think the optimal solution would be to have a toggle that would allow parts to collide/intersect. I've run into two bugged pieces (actual bugs, not illegal builds, reported in the bug thread) just today that a setting like this would resolve.

From what I've heard, such a feature would be too complex to implement in LDD and it would be more sensible to simply switch to LDraw.

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From what I've heard, such a feature would be too complex to implement in LDD and it would be more sensible to simply switch to LDraw.

It's not very hard to implement. In fact, the LDD developers have an internal debug version of LDD that does just that, and they use it to be able to open those "UnplaceableBricksDump.lxfml" to view offending bricks. So why haven't they enabled that as a switch on/switch off feature for regular uses? I see three reasons

1) LDD is a tool for consumers. Sure, with the removal of DbM and LU, the strong focus on children can be losened somewhat, but it's still primarily a tool for LEGO consumers - not advanced AFOL MOC:ers.

2) If a certain builder uses collision control off, and then another is in "on" mode and they share files...there will be a problem when bricks are removed

3) By not allowing it, builders are forced to use legal techniques. Sure there are a few cases we LDD users have discovered where official sets are using illegal techniques, but those are very, very few and are a result of miss in the internal TLG model review process.

So why is TLG forcing legal techniques, even in a CAD tool?

Because illegal techniques destroy the bricks. Plastic (which is a polymer), is a very odd material. Unlike metal, it can permanently stretch even a room temperature and moderate loads. LEGO will not incorporate connections in their sets that will over time destroy the form or clutch power of the bricks - and I guess they don't want to enable consumers to make illegal builds in a CAD tool either. It's just a matter of principle. Sure LDraw tools can allow that, but they are not a corporation with responsibility in the same was as TLG.

Personally I actually like this "side effect" of LDD that you can only build legal, since I'm not a big fan of some of the MOCs you see nowadays and that are called "fantastic work"; with bricks that are not fully connected, things attached at an angle, or pieces that models that sometimes won't hold together if you touch them. Besides, for me LDD is a tool for the design process, and that is where its strength lies - you can quickly work with ideas in preparation for the physical build, and then the snap-together feauture makes all the difference in the world, since it makes LDD ultra fast to build with.

EDIT:

About the bug that Aleluca reported. That has nothing to do will illegal or not illegal - it's just a plain ol' nasty LDD bug :tongue:

And the technique to attach those two bricks is actually not illegal per se - it's when you place another brick ontop of them that it becomes illegal (because of the reason explained by Aanchir and others).

Now, why TLG accepts a 1x1 plate or 1x1 round plate to attach to a technic hole, or even a 1x1 Round brick, but NOT 1x1 Bricks, I don't know :wacko:

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It's not very hard to implement. In fact, the LDD developers have an internal debug version of LDD that does just that, and they use it to be able to open those "UnplaceableBricksDump.lxfml" to view offending bricks. So why haven't they enabled that as a switch on/switch off feature for regular uses? I see three reasons

1) LDD is a tool for consumers. Sure, with the removal of DbM and LU, the strong focus on children can be losened somewhat, but it's still primarily a tool for LEGO consumers - not advanced AFOL MOC:ers.

2) If a certain builder uses collision control off, and then another is in "on" mode and they share files...there will be a problem when bricks are removed

3) By not allowing it, builders are forced to use legal techniques. Sure there are a few cases we LDD users have discovered where official sets are using illegal techniques, but those are very, very few and are a result of miss in the internal TLG model review process.

So why is TLG forcing legal techniques, even in a CAD tool?

Because illegal techniques destroy the bricks. Plastic (which is a polymer), is a very odd material. Unlike metal, it can permanently stretch even a room temperature and moderate loads. LEGO will not incorporate connections in their sets that will over time destroy the form or clutch power of the bricks - and I guess they don't want to enable consumers to make illegal builds in a CAD tool either. It's just a matter of principle. Sure LDraw tools can allow that, but they are not a corporation with responsibility in the same was as TLG.

Personally I actually like this "side effect" of LDD that you can only build legal, since I'm not a big fan of some of the MOCs you see nowadays and that are called "fantastic work"; with bricks that are not fully connected, things attached at an angle, or pieces that models that sometimes won't hold together if you touch them. Besides, for me LDD is a tool for the design process, and that is where it's strength lies - you can quickly work with ideas in preparation for the physical build, and then the snap-together feauture makes all the difference in the world, since it makes LDD ultra fast to build with.

EDIT:

About the bug that Aleluca reported. That has nothing to do will illegal or not illegal - it's just a plain ol' nasty LDD bug :tongue:

And the technique to attach those two bricks is actually not illegal per se - it's when you place another brick ontop of them that it becomes illegal (because of the reason explained by Aanchir and others).

Now, why TLG accepts a 1x1 plate or 1x1 round plate to attach to a technic hole, or even a 1x1 Round brick, but NOT 1x1 Bricks, I don't know :wacko:

Well, i think your answer is very exaustive, honestly i'm in the middle between what you defined "legal" and "illegal" and i do not like either when touch something and it cannot stay together but... i'm also sure that the coupling which open this topic it is absolutelly not going to destroy, demage or compromise the bricks!

First due to the tolerance they have and second because in this assembly there is no step or dangerous gap. Obvioulsy it's what in mechanical is called hyperstatic system ... but what in LEGO isn't so???

However I'm 99% sure that this is just a bug, which i hope LEGO's team will solve soon :hmpf_bad:

PS: The passion of the MOCs saved LEGO Group from its dark time in 90's, then i think LDD, a part its commercial purpose, should also be designed to give some freedom (in responsible way, of course!) to its users who at the end exchange, buy or sell LEGO bricks from official or unofficial channels!

However LEGO is still a wonderful invention which run me crazy everytime today as 30 yrs ago :sweet::classic:

Ciao

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PS: The passion of the MOCs saved LEGO Group from its dark time in 90's, then i think LDD, a part its commercial purpose, should also be designed to give some freedom (in responsible way, of course!) to its users who at the end exchange, buy or sell LEGO bricks from official or unofficial channels!

Yepp, and I like that you've pointed that out, because I agree that it was the innovative approach of (among other) AFOLs that has helped TLG during the crisis (just look at all the AFOLs that got employement at TLG as designers. Jamie Berard just to name one). But (and this is important), there is a big difference between really stretching what you can do with LEGO and building illegal. The great innovation of the new designs from TLG is that they use innovative techniques within the boundaries of the legal principles. Now that's something extra and why I love to build official sets and bump into some clever solution where I just go "wow...that is just so good" :classic:

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It's not very hard to implement. [...] I see three reasons...

I figured it would be rather simple to do. As to the reasoning of why or why not they should give us this option, I see it as akin to the hidden Extended mode in prior versions.

1) Let "collisions off" mode be a toggle in an .ini file. Those who really want it can do the legwork to get it.

2) Maintain the state of the toggle in the saved .lxf file. A .lfx built in "collisions off" mode will open in "collisions off" mode regardless of the state of the toggle in the .ini file.

3) I actually strongly agree with this. My main desire for a "collisions off" mode is to work around actual bugs, rather than build with illegal abandon.

To sum up, I'm a fan of forced legal building and coming up with truly creative solutions instead of cheap hacks, but only if the bugs inherent to certain parts in LDD don't get in the way of actual legal builds. I've run into three such bugs just in the past day (two of which I reported in the bug thread, the third was previously known), hence my suggestion of a "collisions off" mode.

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The great innovation of the new designs from TLG is that they use innovative techniques within the boundaries of the legal principles. Now that's something extra and why I love to build official sets and bump into some clever solution where I just go "wow...that is just so good" :classic:

Lets say that esixt two lines of principle:

1) use the legal techniques TLGs

2) use the illegal techniques MOCs

The first "squize" the brain to achieve a result whit the tool available staying inside the boundaries, the second try to find some "shortcut" to get a best result! Well it depends where we wanna stay, personally i think both are acceptable... but at the end of this day what i understood about LDD, is that, a part the bugs (understandable for all softwares in general), if i wanna design with it i MUST "give up" something and make a smart design staying inside bondaries! :wink:

It's an interesting challenge!

Ciao

Edited by Calabar
Quote fixed

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One thing I don't like about the "legal way to build" is that are considered illegal many technique used in many official sets in the past, for example vertically insert a tile between the studs of a brick or use the grid of a fence to connect a round brick.

That limit prevent me to accurately reconstruct official sets, and I think it is a pity.

An "old official techniques" compatibility mode would be really appreciated! (by me, at least)

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