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Meatman

Where is the line drawn between "Borrowing" ideas and "Ste

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My son was going through the MOCpages today and showed me a new technic Lamborghini car that someone has built. I am not going to post the link for the model in question, but the builder is calling it His Creation when it is clearly that of a well known technic builder, only the Rebuild is modified with parts that the builder didn't have or he changed some things that he didn't like. :hmpf_bad:

If you are going to post pictures of models that you built and you know that you used someone else's ideas or designs and they are blatantly obvious, shouldn't you give some form of credit to the original designer?

I for one have built plenty of other people's MOC, but I would never post pictures of them without giving some form of props for doing so, even if I modified things or changed colors.

I shot an e-mail with a link to the original designer and he replied back that this was just something that is to be expected and he really didn't care.

Is this wrong or am I just making a mountain out of a molehill? :wacko:

Edited by Meatman

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I allways mention people's names if I use their design idea's. Mostly I try to figure it out myself, but sometimes it's not nessecary to reinvent the wheel. And it's greatly being appreciated if someone else mentions my name if they use my designs. For example I made a 8466-like tr-tr using a chassis that Sariel designed and I even mentioned him in the video.

Edited by Jurgen Krooshoop

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Are you sure the famous builder and the person who posted are different people?

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Are you sure the famous builder and the person who posted are different people?

Yes, they are definitely different people. Like I said, I e-mailed the original designer and he didn't seem to care, but that still doesn't make it morally right.

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I think a mention is good manners but not necessary. I don't feel it's a big deal. Most creations Lego or otherwise have connections to other previous work. Did the guy who built the original car acknowledge the actual designer of the Lamborghini? After all he was copying someone elses design.

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As Jurgen wrote, it´s the least you can do to mention the person you borrowed the ideas from. It does not cost you anything and maybe when the author of the idea finds out, it can make him happy and not angry. The other thing is, when two people independently have the same idea, but it does not concern the whole models.

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Here is a link from Brazil that I just found and I think you guys will see what I mean. There is no way that 2 people had the same idea here, especially when the original designer has instructions posted.

LINK

One of the Comments made:

"Tom, your great MOC.

I've seen some replicas of cars made from Technic pieces on some blogs and yours is the same level.

The functions are pretty cool.

No doubt a higher quality image would give even more value to your car."

Now wouldn't anyone that used 90% of someone else's design correct this poster in the very next post by admitting that they are using someone else's design?

Edited by Meatman

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I think Credit due if you use someones design or idea is well deserved.

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@Meatman:

I saw that you posted original Crowkillers-pictures and mentioned the instructions in the post of the Brazilian "Tom"-guy. IMO that was the right thing to do.

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If the entire model is substantially a copy of another one, it certainly should be credited accordingly. It was good on your part to notify the original designer. (although if he doesn't care, I wouldn't either :tongue:)

On the other hand, this become more murky when it comes to individual assemblies or mechanisms. I don't think anyone could lay a realistic claim on "inventing" a certain Lego building technique, although I've seen AFOL arguments about this kind of thing before.

Edited by CP5670

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I think posting someone's creation and calling it your own, even if it is tweaked a bit, still deserves at least a sentence or two of credit to the original designer. Now techniques are another matter, as those are not someone's "own" work, and can and should be shared throughout the Lego Community. Taking another person's credit for a creation is quite rude, and for a contest, illegal.

But since the original designer doesn't care, I don't see why you can't just email the guy who copied the creation to give credit where credit is due.

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The reason that the original designer (Paul Boratko from Pennsylvania USA) "didn't care" is that he's posted the Lamborghini Gallardo instructions on his website for free: http://crowkillers.com/index.html . It is very gracious of him to let others mimic his creation. However, your son should learn this "life lesson" -- PLAGIARISM can be a bad thing in the adult world. It is best to give credit (where credit is due), rather than claim that somebody else's work is YOUR OWN. In the adult world, folks can get in BIG TROUBLE over plagiarism.

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Yes, as others have said, if you've derived substantial inspiration from another work credit is appropriate. There's no harm either way;

1. If it's a minor change then people will appreciate your honesty.

2. If it's a major change people will think you're being too kind to the other MOC! :tongue:

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I think a mention is good manners but not necessary. I don't feel it's a big deal. Most creations Lego or otherwise have connections to other previous work. Did the guy who built the original car acknowledge the actual designer of the Lamborghini? After all he was copying someone elses design.

So getting praise and pats on the back for someone else's ideas and designs are not a big deal? I somewhat agree, it's not a huge deal, but I certainly would feel funny inside when people told me how great my model was when I knew 50% of it wasn't mine. I also checked out the guy's mocpages and he has pictures of a Murcielago that he is building that is already earily similar to Paul's model that he did. And considering that the original Lego Lambo desingner not only calls it a Lamborghini Gallardo but also has stickers on it that also represent the original car and it's maker, then I would say full credit has already been given. Now if he took the Lamborghini design and replicated it and called it something else, then that would be different. It's not like he is working with sheet metal and a metal lathe. I also found it humorous that the guy who built the modded version of Paul's car even mentions something about people stealing his photos of his car on that Brazilian site. I Agree with you guys. If you are going to Mod or change an existing model from TLC obviously people will know what you have done, but if you are building and altering a MOC from an AFOL, then that is something much different and you should at least say where you got the idea from.

That is my 2 cents :classic:

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Fortunately there is no such thing as copyright in LEGO - I mean: anyone is alowed to recreate anyone's MOCs, MODs or buiding techniques without a legal obligation to any kind of tribute. However, the decent thing to do is to give reasonable credit when due. After all, you'd expect other people to do the same for you, right?

If someone does 'steal' your MOC - blatantly copying something and then passing it off as their own - there is a very nice Flickr group you can use to set the dogs on them: http://www.flickr.com/groups/brick-busters/

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Fortunately there is no such thing as copyright in LEGO - I mean: anyone is alowed to recreate anyone's MOCs, MODs or buiding techniques without a legal obligation to any kind of tribute.

I'm pretty sure (but I'm no lawyer) that is not the case. As with anything artistic you should be able copyright it. Afterall, to a LEGO artist, LEGO is just like paint, and you can copyright a painting.

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I'm pretty sure (but I'm no lawyer) that is not the case. As with anything artistic you should be able copyright it. Afterall, to a LEGO artist, LEGO is just like paint, and you can copyright a painting.

In normal life I'm a musician, and I know that you automaticly have the rights to everything YOU compose. The only problem is being able to prove this to others. In terms of LEGO I think it's the same. It's very clear that this TOM-guy copied Crowkillers design. A good way to see that Tom copied Paul's design (and not the other way around) is to look at the posting-date. Tom posted "his" model on july 8th, 2010, so it's clear that Crowkillers was the first and Tom made a copy. Ok, Paul doesn't seem to care, so there's no real problem for Tom. But if he would copy eg my Little Devil and would call the slightly changed design his own, that would give me a really akward feeling. I think you are moraly obligated to mention using other people's designs.

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I'm pretty sure (but I'm no lawyer) that is not the case. As with anything artistic you should be able copyright it. Afterall, to a LEGO artist, LEGO is just like paint, and you can copyright a painting.

One thing is ability. Another completely different thing is whether this is being done or not. I think it would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if people suddenly decided their models were copyrighted and no-one should be allowed to even copy them without some kind of monetary compensation. We're not making money on any of this (well, at least most of us aren't) and although it is annoying to see people 'steal' MOCs there is no monetary damage. If there were (e.g. if anyone were to 'steal' anyone's MOC and try to sell it) I'd be the first one to want that to be put and end to.

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One thing is ability. Another completely different thing is whether this is being done or not.

You don't need to file something to copyright it. Nothing needs to be done aside from announcing that it's your work. Many sites, such as PCS and even my own does this.

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This is more of a morale issue than anything else. On brickshelf right now there are about 5 other people who built Paul's car and added there own changes, which is completely fine because not only are not claiming it as their own design, but also have crowkillers credited in the description. There is nothing wrong with sharing ideas an posting pictures of your modded or bowwored ideas and sharing pictures, but posting models on the MOCpages that you used someone else's instrucions to build is something different. Unless you let everyone know where you got your ideas from. :thumbup:

I see now that This Tom claims that everyone is copying the model because there are instructions available and he modified and changed the seats, the rear, the front, because he did not like them and he made improvements. The funny thing is, I really don't see these improvements.

Edited by Meatman

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One thing is ability. Another completely different thing is whether this is being done or not. I think it would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if people suddenly decided their models were copyrighted and no-one should be allowed to even copy them without some kind of monetary compensation. We're not making money on any of this (well, at least most of us aren't) and although it is annoying to see people 'steal' MOCs there is no monetary damage. If there were (e.g. if anyone were to 'steal' anyone's MOC and try to sell it) I'd be the first one to want that to be put and end to.

I agree. Publishing MOC's will hopefully stimulate other builder's creativity. I would allways encourage people to make their own version of something. That's one of the reasons I make instructions for some of my MOC's and provide them for free.

But claiming someone elses design as your own is moraly wrong.

BTW Tom's versions doesn't look as nice as the original from Paul. I think the changes were purely made to compensate missing parts.

Edited by Jurgen Krooshoop

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I'll throw my two cents in here. I agree that if you get inspiration from a builder, borrow a technique they used in a MOC, or use another MOC as an inspiration...then a nod to the builder(s) that inspired you is a courteous thing to do. I know that some AFOL's and TFOL's fight about the origin of various building techniques...but who really cares. This whole hobby is all about community...not who can come up with the most whacked-out building technique or MOC. More sharing and positive comments will make this community grow bigger and stronger.

-Davey

tot-lug_100x40.jpg

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Well, here is Paul's reply from his blog :thumbup:

Thanks for the heads up. I got an e-mail link yesterday about this. To tell you the truth, I really don't care. Sometimes you just have to accept that things like this will happen. It's not like the guy is selling off his design or making money from it and if he can, then more power to him. It looks to me more like he was just using whatever parts that he could find to compensate for the ones that he didn't have.

The whole reason why I made this model was to try and do what I felt a true Lego Designer would have done, mainly because of the negetive feedback that I always seemed to get that my models used too many pieces or were too complex, but then you have to expect that whomever builds the model will change it up and modify it however they would like. There are no stipulations when it comes to building that you must follow the original plans to the "T". If that were the case, The Lego Company would probably already be out of business.

I have received quite a few e-mails asking for me to redo the model and add suspension.... I built this model for all of you guys, do whatever you want with it. Also due to the 100 or so e-mails that I got asking about different colors and such, I offered this design to The Lego Company. Just knowing that I actually designed something that was on a store shelf would be awesome. But I haven't heard anything back yet and more than likely never will.

Just build guys! And have Fun!

-Paul

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Have you got a link for the blog?

It's just at Paul's site at www.crowkillers.com The blog isn't really being used properly though :hmpf_bad: Just click on the comments.

Edited by TechnicJuan

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