Future availability of 9V

[gambort]

Uh, that stuff isn't visible. The picture show the cover plate for all that removed. that is why the blue pins are there to begin with. Whoever built that did a great job at hiding the PF stuff.

At least some people are observant. It's hardly surprising that HoMa would do a good job. He's been doing good jobs for over a decade.

Tim

[peterab]

With all do respect, that's a horrible justification as it's perfectly easy to add weight and you can do it in a multitude of ways, whereas a battery pack takes a specific bulk of space.

Any weight takes up space, the new battery pack is pretty small, I can't see the particular shape of the battery box any more annoying than the limitations the shape of the 9V motor place on you. In fact the battery is easier to hide.

Don't get me wrong, I've come a long way towards PF from 9V, but, for starters, I am NOT spending $75 to get a battery pack and charger when they should have a $5 battery pack that I can use my own rechargeables in. I find it's much nicer to be able to pick up from the rail. Unlike Tony, I don't have a huge layout and can live without track looping back on itself... I'm talking about a typical use at my house, which might be around the Christmas tree, for example, that I want to run for a LONG time without having to stop and recharge.

They do have a cheap battery box, in fact they have two. One that takes 6 AA's and if space is a real issue one that takes 6 AAA's. The smaller one is in the new train sets. Hopefully it will become seperately available. I'm sure it's already on bricklink. Feel free to use your own rechargables, but I've bought a set of AA's, and I could probably get the rechargable battery box shipped from the US for about the same price, and it would have greater charge time and would only need access to the socket rather than being totaly removed from my mocs.

While 9V has some nice features, so does PF. For typical around the Xmas tree use I cant see much advantage to either, but you may see things differently, thats fine, a circle of 9V track, a motor and a speed regulator are easily obtainable on Bricklink. I just can't understand 'the sky is falling' reaction to the end of 9V. Sure the clubs who have heavilly invested in it were going to be a bit dissapointed, but they got a lot of warning, and had the chance to buy discounted motors, and more track, and most have since adapted. TLG have also taken their concerns into account and have produced a couple of motors and battery boxes in responce which are much better than the restrictive RC ones.

Edited August 10, 2010 by peterab

[legotrainfan]

How much would it cost per track if you wanted to acquire a large number of track pieces this way?

You can also send them a mail and ask that question (shop.lego.com => contact us => send mail). Just give them a set in which PF straight tracks appear. Tell them you need a straight, which is part of that particular set. Ask them what one piece of straight track would cost and ask how many you are allowed to buy at once? There should be a limit, but I think it's above 50 pieces. Don't know if this is true for every element, though. Don't forget to ask for the shipping costs, but normally the tell you the price including the shipping costs anyway.

I have just looked for and found the old receipt. It was the order with my two straight RC/PF tracks. The TLC element number of "rail straight 16 M" (straight PF/RC track) is: 4279714. As I said, I ordered two pieces and got them for 2.72 euros (one piece: 1.36 euros). However, that was in 2007 and the price might have gone up.

[aZz]

I could only imagine how this discussion would difer if the swapp had of been going from pf to 9v.

[fred67]

Any weight takes up space, the new battery pack is pretty small, I can't see the particular shape of the battery box any more annoying than the limitations the shape of the 9V motor place on you. In fact the battery is easier to hide.

That shape is always an option, but just using weights it can be that shape or any... anything that will fit in the train. I don't understand the complaint about the 9V motor, though... most bogies on any car (and diesel engines, and any steam engine that has an x-x-2 (or even 2-x-x) would have a bogie just that size.

They do have a cheap battery box, in fact they have two. One that takes 6 AA's and if space is a real issue one that takes 6 AAA's. The smaller one is in the new train sets. Hopefully it will become seperately available.

That's the problem... it's not readily available. In fact, I can use an old battery box, but then I'd have to modify the cable.

While 9V has some nice features, so does PF. For typical around the Xmas tree use I cant see much advantage to either, but you may see things differently, thats fine, a circle of 9V track, a motor and a speed regulator are easily obtainable on Bricklink.

Yes... I've already said PF has nice features. That Christmas tree example is just something that I would leave running for hours while I'm playing with other things with the kids... you never have to stop playing.

I just can't understand 'the sky is falling' reaction to the end of 9V.

I just can't understand why some people feel that others feel that way... I think I've been very moderate about it, and no one has implied that the end of 9V was the end of the world.

[Captain Green Hair]

I have quite some 9V trains and parts, but I'm definitely seeing the possibilities of the new PF trains, though it might be a slightly more difficult system.

I think I'll combine the 2, using 9V on short tracks with trams and such, and perhaps PF for big trains on longer tracks and difficult structures as turntables and bridges.

In the end, the great thing of Lego is that everything can be combined with everything.

[broomhandle]

it seams the 9v discussion will never die. my thoughts are it was popular when 9v was around, and popular now still. so it will be around. just as rare used collectibles.

i prefer the newer PF/RC because you can buy track new. and you can do a reverse loop! :)

[Pugsly]

i got back into Lego trains just at the switch from 9V to R/C. I have been buying 9V track on ebay, but have bought maybe 8 sets of plastic track from Lego direct. I usually run 2 separate loops, a 9v and a PF. occasionally if i want to run a longer 9v train, i do the brass tape trick on the Pf track and it works perfectly. I did do some where in did each track separately so the brass touches each other at the track ends, but mostly run a long piece from end to end of all the pf track pieces. Never ran into loss of power either way.

9V track on ebay and BL is expensive, well the straight pieces are. i usually buy sets with missing pieces or extra track cause i get the track 9V motor, and baseplates cheap that way. just yesterday i bought railway express 4561 with 10 straights 16 curves and all the other pieces for $75!!!!!!! The last one i bought like that i paid $110 for (but it did have more straights a 2 switches)

[Carefree_Dude]

i got back into Lego trains just at the switch from 9V to R/C. I have been buying 9V track on ebay, but have bought maybe 8 sets of plastic track from Lego direct. I usually run 2 separate loops, a 9v and a PF. occasionally if i want to run a longer 9v train, i do the brass tape trick on the Pf track and it works perfectly. I did do some where in did each track separately so the brass touches each other at the track ends, but mostly run a long piece from end to end of all the pf track pieces. Never ran into loss of power either way.

9V track on ebay and BL is expensive, well the straight pieces are. i usually buy sets with missing pieces or extra track cause i get the track 9V motor, and baseplates cheap that way. just yesterday i bought railway express 4561 with 10 straights 16 curves and all the other pieces for $75!!!!!!! The last one i bought like that i paid $110 for (but it did have more straights a 2 switches)

Hey I almost bid on that same auction! I decided not to though because I just spent a lot on the Airport Shuttle

[CarrollFilms]

There are benefits to Power Functions. for starters, there are more doable layouts. Also, the PF motor seems to be slightly stronger than the 9V motor. YOu can also control trains individually. You can buy rechargable battery packs, and charge them while they are still in your train. You can also hide cables pretty easily. As much as I prefer 9V, I've accepted that 9V is over, never coming back, and PF is what we have now. Luckily it is easy to convert any 9V train into PF with a simple cable. If you build a "Power Functions" car you can hide all the PF stuff behind the train, and have a hidden cable going into the actual train to power the motor.

Yes there are benefits, but after the battery box starts to lose it's juice you need to replace the battery box and no one likes stopping the train and then opening the body, removing the battery box, put a new one in, connect the wires, then let it continue. With a 9V you can just let it rest, no worries about problems, all I really need to do is switch the track and change the train, very little effort needed. Yes 9V track is starting to get pricey but it is time to stock up on 9V track. Really I don't care what you say about 9V I love 9V, I'm probably going to switch to PF but that will be a last ditch effort to trains, but right now it looks like 9V will be around for me, i'll just buy some PF trains, sell the PF's and replace it with 9V. GO 9V!!!!!

[Carefree_Dude]

Yes there are benefits, but after the battery box starts to lose it's juice you need to replace the battery box and no one likes stopping the train and then opening the body, removing the battery box, put a new one in, connect the wires, then let it continue. With a 9V you can just let it rest, no worries about problems, all I really need to do is switch the track and change the train, very little effort needed. Yes 9V track is starting to get pricey but it is time to stock up on 9V track. Really I don't care what you say about 9V I love 9V, I'm probably going to switch to PF but that will be a last ditch effort to trains, but right now it looks like 9V will be around for me, i'll just buy some PF trains, sell the PF's and replace it with 9V. GO 9V!!!!!

You don't have to remove the battery box to recharge it. You can recharge it right in the train; On both of my trains with the rechargeable box I simply have to remove one piece to get to the plug in. Also, the train stays strong till the moment it dies.

[hoeij]

The Benefits of Power Functions Trains (an incomplete list):

....

Multiple trains - the PF system allows for multiple trains running at multiple speeds on the same track. This cannot be done with 9v without a significant investment in DCC and the time to install it.

....

Reliability/Replaceability - Like it or not, the motors made towards the end of the life of the 9v system were inferior to the motors made towards the beginning. Lubricants, parts, etc. were all skimped in the name of saving money. The older, more longer lasting motors are now very old. So regardless of you having an older or newer 9v motor, they're going to fail sooner than later. Power Functions motors train or otherwise are currently available, and if they fail can be replaced at retail cost. As 9v motors die the amount of usable motors will decrease, and the price of 9v will only go up. 9v rails, too, age. The metal rails will corrode and as they are used will eventually break free of the plastic track base.

....

--Tony

A few comments here, running several trains on the same loop is actually not easy to do with PF

unless you also have several people controlling the trains. At the local train show a few months

ago I had 3 loops, a 12V with typically 2 trains running on it, a 9V loop with typically 3 trains

running simultaneously on it, and another loop with 1 PF train (the Emerald Night) running on it.

Occasionally I had to shut down the AC power to prevent a collision (the remote-control button

to turn off the AC power was within hand reach at all times).

I was running this layout by myself. If all running trains were PF trains, then that would have

been very difficult to run several trains on the same track, unless I had more people to hold

the PF controllers.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes, with PF you have more options if you want

to run multiple trains on the same track, however, if you don't also have an additional

set of eyes and hands, running more than 2 trains is actually not so easy to do in practice,

and might actually be harder than it is in 9V.

The other issue: how long do the 9V motors last, and will they remain available? That's the

topic of the first post in this thread. The 9V motors are not as robust as the 12V motors.

They do break (= problem), and they don't make them anymore (= problem). Still, there

are lots of 9V systems out there that will eventually end up on eBay, most of which have

a 9V motor that has seen little use. Since most people will be buying PF trains, there is

a good chance that the supply of 9V motors will be sufficient for a long time.

[zephyr1934]

Stronger motors, eh? Now that's going some way towards swaying me. As is longer track runs, and the idea of peak performance right until the battery dies. Might be worth investigating the possibilities of PF for myself rather than stocking up on 9v parts.

Thanks, Tony. You've given me more than expected to think about.

Here's my 2c,

I've not played with the PF train motor, but using a pair of XL motors and one battery, I've been able to pull some stunningly long (and heavy) trains. Here I pulled a 22 car train using 4 9v motors and three controllers. The cars are fairly heavy, which is why so few per motor. Here I pulled a 33 car train made up of similar cars using just 2 XL motors and one rechargeable battery (and this locomotive had to do more work because of the drag from the steam engine and the fact that the train was always in at least one more curve than the 9v train). I've since pulled longer/heavier trains with the same locomotive. Though the XL powered train is slow because I did not do any gearing.

9v minuses-

-power drops on long track

-power drops due to oxidation on the rails

9v pluses

-I much prefer track power for train control (individual preference)

-the motors are a lot easier to hide and swap out (you only swap a truck, whereas PF will need a battery box, and most likely an RC receiver).

PF minuses-

-the IR range is poor at shows- no problem in my basement, but when heading to brickworld with a switching layout I was worried about other folks crowding the limited channels. Ha, at BW if the locomotive got much more than 8 ft away I had to walk with it to actually get it to receive my controls.

-The parts are bulky- hard to to do a 6 wide locomotive with a narrower hood (i.e., 4 wide hood). Either need to go wider or stash propulsion in a car.

-In the above locomotive the battery is built into the tender so when it needs recharging the locomotive needs to be swapped out (though there are probably eloquent ways to make the battery easy to swap).

-When PF dies, it does so abruptly and with no warning (so if you have hard to reach places on your layout, recharge before you run out of power). If a train goes off the track it keeps going.

-If a train derails, it is more likely to keep going (which can be a problem if you are on a table)

-expensive, but per unit of power, quite possibly comparable to 9v at MSRP

PF pluses-

-power power power

-very smooth (it is A LOT easier to start a long train with PF than with 9v- at least when using just one IR receiver- and the 9v motors fluctuate a lot more to the point where I need to insert stronger magnets at shorter train lengths).

-want to run a slow freight, no problem with PF, but it is problematic for 9v

At this point I am going to stick with 9v for most of my trains, but I will continue to dabble in PF. I see no reason why one cannot have both running on the same layout. If I were starting today, knowing what I know, I'd probably go PF simply because of availability and then figure out how to make it work.

Benn

[fred67]

The other issue: how long do the 9V motors last, and will they remain available? .... Since most people will be buying PF trains, there is

a good chance that the supply of 9V motors will be sufficient for a long time.

I can't bear the thought of continuing to invest in a dead technology, especially when second hand prices are so inflated.

I have a personal preference for 9V, and I wish LEGO would have taken a different course. There's a reason model railroaders have successfully been using powered rail for over 100 years. Yes, now we have DCC, but with the IR controls and receivers, there is certainly a way to get the best of both worlds.

But TLG didn't do that... so we need to start moving, even if slowly, towards whatever LEGO is supporting now.

Those 9V RC motors are not PF. TLG doesn't even call them PF (although they say they can be combined with PF components). The only "real" PF motors I'm aware of are M, XL, and E, and they are all generic motors, which is the course TLG wants to take, I think... one set of motors that can be used for anything, nothing specific for trains or cranes or anything else.

So, this is my understanding: TLG was not happy with how trains were going (neither 9V nor 9V RC). The only "official" train that even has instructions (I don't think it's correct to say "designed for") PF is the EN. The two new train sets just released were already in the works when TLG decided to discontinue using 9V RC... this is from what I understand, having read a few things at the end of last year and the beginning of this year.

IMO, I think TLG is going to abandon 9V RC just the same... they want generic motors, the 9V RC motor is not generic. So, again, from what I understand, TLG is already planning to abandon you if you've invested in 9V RC, and aren't even sure (or weren't, I haven't heard anything for quite some time) which route they are going to go WRT trains. From what I understand (*), there won't be new train sets probably until 2012, if not later, and based on what I'd heard, it will be PF only, if at all.

So... let's get a few things straight. Personal preferences aside:

1. 9V is dead. Future availability will only get more expensive on the second hand market. Don't delude yourselves into thinking it will magically get cheaper - it won't.

2. 9V RC is current, but already deprecated.

3. PF refers to one of three motors right now: M, XL, and E. That's where trains are going, IMO, and that's where LEGO wants them to go.

While I prefer electric rail, there is one benefit of using PF motors... TLG cannot pull the rug out from under you again. These motors are all over the place, inexpensive, and whatever you ultimately do to transmit power from a motor to your wheels you will need only update it with whatever new motor TLG comes up with in the future. TLG has a bad habit of constantly changing things... 12V, 9V, 9V RC, and now PF... you can't count on them for longevity of a product line, so now you won't have to as long as they produce "some" motor.

If I could prod TLG to do anything, it would be WRT track... selling straights separately (or even selling long straights... 2x or 4x), and if they are going to insist on battery power, a motor with a form factor not based on technic... like an actual 4x? brick, would be nice. The E-motor might be a start of something like that.

PS: still waiting for that MOC of a hand car using PF.

PPS: "What's an E-Motor," you ask? It looks four wide, with a flat bottom (making me guess you can attach it brick-like). Now, the M motor has a 2-wide flat bottom, but it "torques off" because that's often not enough to hold it in place.

(*) I keep saying "from what I understand" because I don't want to claim I know what TLG is doing, and certainly want to be corrected if I'm mistaken.

[Carefree_Dude]

The motors that come with the new PF trains are true PF motors; Lego doesn't sell them separately yet though. If lego starts selling these separately as well, then you can add them to the list.

[fred67]

The motors that come with the new PF trains are true PF motors; Lego doesn't sell them separately yet though. If lego starts selling these separately as well, then you can add them to the list.

I disagree. Even BrickLink doesn't pretend it's PF...

The only difference between the one that comes with the set and this one, that you CAN buy in the TRAIN section of LEGO's website, is that instead of a separate cable that you can connect to PF, it's integrated... that's the only difference. If you follow that logic, I can take one of these, add a PF cable to it, and call it PF.

You are likely NOT to see the one with the integrated wire separately... because there's already the one you CAN buy, in the TRAIN section, that you can already attach to PF components.

Works with PF =/= PF.

[andythenorth]

You are likely NOT to see the one with the integrated wire separately... because there's already the one you CAN buy, in the TRAIN section, that you can already attach to PF components.

I have no facts to support this, but I don't think Lego are going to produce and stock inventory for two very similar motors (PF and RC) in the longer term

I would bet that the current RC motor in the Lego store will be replaced by the new PF Train Motor when current inventory of RC motors is sold. I also bet that the motor is a slow selling item, due to limited audience.

The new train motor is a true PF motor - it's got the PF connector. The system is defined by the connector type in this case.

cheers,

Andy

Edited August 22, 2010 by andythenorth

[AndyC]

The only difference between the one that comes with the set and this one, that you CAN buy in the TRAIN section of LEGO's website, is that instead of a separate cable that you can connect to PF, it's integrated... that's the only difference. If you follow that logic, I can take one of these, add a PF cable to it, and call it PF.

That's not the only difference, though it may appear that way externally. The internals are different and designed to be stronger and more power efficient, as has been borne out by various tests. Furthermore, TLG call them Power Functions Train Motors, so they definitely count as Power Functions components.

[fred67]

That's not the only difference, though it may appear that way externally. The internals are different and designed to be stronger and more power efficient, as has been borne out by various tests. Furthermore, TLG call them Power Functions Train Motors, so they definitely count as Power Functions components.

Where do they call it PF? Just because they show it on the box with other PF stuff? It's just a redesigned 9V train motor.

From what I understand, PF is supposed to be generic... making a PF train motor makes no sense, then, as the idea was to use a generic motor that could be used for anything.

As far as calling if PF just because it's got an integrated cable... no, I don't buy that. The only "really" PF engine is the EN.

If LEGO ever lists this motor under the PF section of their website (in addition to or instead of the train section), I'll admit I'm wrong, but I really doubt we'll see that happen.

And as I mentioned, even these are going to be phased out... TLG doesn't like the current trains (that was the last I heard) and they are going back to the drawing board and don't even have any plans that I'm aware of. I'd be willing to be we don't see any new engines until at least 2012.

EDIT: from this press release:

....

Using the LEGO Power Functions system the new train system will benefit from a set of electric elements that are cross theme, widely available and not completely train specific which allows us to amortize the development and on going cost across multiple themes.

...

Using the universal LEGO Power Functions system for trains will give The LEGO Group the ability to match the demands and wishes of the AFOL Train community in the future.

This is what I was saying is the upside of PF... I do not believe they will keep making the 9V RC motor, but whatever PF motors they may switch to making in the future will likely be plug and play with the current M/XL/E motors, such that when your motor eventually fails in 10 years and they're not being made anymore, there will be something that can replace it with little hassle. If they make motorized trucks, though, and discontinue them, then you're screwed.

Edited August 22, 2010 by fred67

[fred67]

You know what is really sad... it's not TLG changing the system, it's that I can't find out any newer information about it.

Even the iltco.org site just brings up a blank page for me (maybe it's because I'm using Chrome).

I guess like most companies, if they tell you what's coming up they think you are less likely to buy what's current.

[andythenorth]

whatever PF motors they may switch to making in the future

I don't understand? I have a PF Train Motor in front of me. It's not simply the RC motor. It has redesigned internals. The characteristics of the motor are totally different. It has a PF connector on it.

The mouldings are mostly identical with previous RC motor - the cost of those moulds is sunk. There's no new development there. The electrical components have already been redesigned, that's now also sunk cost. The only additional cost to a PF train motor is maintaining the mould and stocking inventory. Given that the RC motor currently on the store retails for about £10 sterling, the marginal costs on the part can't be that high, or they'd charge more for it - the costs on some other PF and train parts is high. I'd expect the PF Train Motor to sell around the same when it hits the store.

This isn't an argument that Lego won't discontinue trains...just that the PF Train Motor *is* the PF Train Motor. It is all jut guess work, but I'd be surprised if there was some 'other PF Train Motor' around the corner

Edited August 22, 2010 by andythenorth

[fred67]

What I'm saying is that LEGO's goal was to not have to make motors specific for any one line. The XL IS the train motor... just look at the Emerald Night. It's a generic motor that gets applied to trains and any other line that needs power. That's what TLG's goal was.

And it may just be a matter of personal opinion, but... wait, where'd you read it had redesigned internals? Anecdotal evidence that it's stronger? Because every review I've read said that the 9V RC was better than 9V, and that PF - using XL motors, was far stronger than 9V... but the PF they were referring to was XL motors.

Anyway, it may only be a matter of opinion, but even if you look at LEGO's power functions website, while the OLD 9V RC motor appears there (as it's compatible), there's nothing non-generic shown when you're actually looking at pages with the PF motors, and it must be the opinion of the BL maintainers that it's not PF, either... in fact, the one you can buy now is x1688 while the new one is just x1688a... "with integrated PF attachment."

Since the PF "goal" was to be generic, I have a difficult time accepting TLG calling these "PF" just because it happens to work with PF components... every motor and battery pack can work with PF components. It's also not PF just because it might have been redesigned.

I'm not going to nit-pick anymore; it's my opinion (shared by others) that calling this "PF" is a misnomer for a variety of reasons... but it's not worth arguing about.

But the point was that if you design your locomotion around an XL, M, or E motor, that TLG can't screw you by discontinuing them because there will almost surely be drop in replacements. If you design it around one of these powered bogies and TLG discontinues them (which they almost surely will), then you're just going to be disappointed. From everything I've heard over the past couple of years, LEGO will be using EN style locomotion... an XL or similar motor, and I was pointing out that if you go this route yourself, you will almost surely be "future proofing" yourself from the inevitable changes that TLG will make.

Edited August 22, 2010 by fred67

[rday1982]

If LEGO were to discontinue the powered bogies entirely, it would certainly make designing new sets for the train line somewhat challenging. To date, EN has been the only train with a wheelset using gears and axles. They like the powered bogies because they keep the construction of trains pretty simple, and thus make them more acessible to kids. If they start making all trains powered from the XL motor, for example, with gears and axles on every wheel pair instead of bearing elements, then they'll run into design problems when making bogies that can turn corners, and problems with too many parts in a very limited space.

I think we'll see the PF/RC/whateverthehellitis bogie for a while.

[andythenorth]

where'd you read it had redesigned internals? Anecdotal evidence that it's stronger?

It's not anecdotal The PF Train Motor can deliver approximately twice the stalled torque of the RC Train Motor, and approximately 50% more stalled torque than the 9V Train Motor. It's also more efficient than the older motors, delivering that torque with lower power consumption. Extensively tested here.

[fred67]

If they start making all trains powered from the XL motor, for example, with gears and axles on every wheel pair instead of bearing elements, then they'll run into design problems when making bogies that can turn corners, and problems with too many parts in a very limited space.

It's already been done by a number of LEGO Train Enthusiasts.

I think we'll see the PF/RC/whateverthehellitis bogie for a while.

No doubt... a couple of years at least.

And I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong about powered bogies being "PF"... it just seems to me TLG was explicitly saying that the point was to "amortize the development and on going cost across multiple themes," which a train specific bogie wouldn't do... but since they don't really tell us what's going on, it's always possible they made an exception.

Edited August 22, 2010 by fred67