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Imperial Guards: Bluecoat and redcoat uniforms

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I know this is a popular topic causing much confusion, but haven't seen a thread about it here. Do you consider both bluecoats and redcoats British, or are bluecoats French or is it something completely different?

My first opinion was that they are both British, but redcoats are those who serve close to Admiral Woodhouse and hence the special colour and slightly different flags.

However, recently I tend to think that bluecoats may be French, which would bring more diversity to the Pirate world.

I've also seen other options, like considering both of them the same nation, but calling one of them ground troops or port crews, with the other being navy. It would be something like the diversity of uniforms on "Star Trek" - different for ships, different for bases. But this would require remodelling the original Lego sets - for instance, if you consider the reds to be ship crew, you'll have to change the crew and flag of the Caribbean Clipper, as well as replace the crew and flags of the Imperial Trading post with blue ones and so on.

Tell me what you think, which option you agree with or do you have any other ideas?

I apologise if this has been discussed in some other thread, but I've looked over all the titles and haven't noticed anything like it.

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Great topic, and to my knowldege it hasn't been discussed here.

Hmmm, I think (in the event that I should get imperial vessels) that I'd end up treating it one of two ways:

Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume (then again, as I don't necessarily care for the later pirate stuff, I could avoid this problem by not buying them.)

Methodology number two: Given as the pirates got all the big ships anyway, I might be inclined to treat them as French (early blue), British (red) and spanish (green/late blue) in an alliance which was built to curtail the operations of larger than life pirates.Historically accurate...not so much. Fun, yes.

Methodology three: Yes, I know I only said I was going to use two...given the fluer motif on the early imperial soldiers stuff, as well as the almos napoleonic hats, I'd say that thinking they are french is not much of a stretch at all.

Me, I'm likely to do any or non of the above...

Akkh

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Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume (then again, as I don't necessarily care for the later pirate stuff, I could avoid this problem by not buying them.)

Methadology 1 is the one I've been using.

Here are the uniforms:

British Navy - Officier's Uniform

british_navy_capt1.jpg

British Army - Typical Lobster

post-273-130694403187.jpg

French Army

french1.jpg

I have seen the custom French mini-figure uniforms somewhere, and they incorporate the red elements into the design making them distinctly different. This includes the design template and the actual finished result. So as soon as I remember where I've seen them I'll post images.

Another reason why I use Methadology 1 is because I live in the hope that one day LEGO will actually release a French sub-theme for Pirates with different uniforms. I shall go back to dreaming now...

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I couldn't find what I was referring to, but I've found some interesting French alternative uniforms none the less.

From Port Brique

ga13band.jpg

frenchofficers.jpg

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Yes, methodology number one seems very appealing to me.

Mister_phes, could you give some links to where you've found these pictures (I mean those of real uniforms)? I'd like to broaden my historical knowlegde about those naval forces we are discussing, perhaps you know some good websites too?

Yes, the armada should definitely be considered Spanish, so the question remains if there are three or two naval powers in the Pirate theme (or should I say one and a half, because of the very few Spanish sets released).

But they really don't have to be in an alliance :)

I have seen the custom French mini-figure uniforms somewhere, and they incorporate the red elements into the design making them distinctly different.

Yes, I think even adding red sleeves and red epaulettes would do the trick, leaving yellow epaulettes for the Britons.

I live in the hope that one day LEGO will actually release a French sub-theme for Pirates with different uniforms.

Yes, that would be nice indeed. Plus the continuation of the Spanish subtheme of course.

Other ideas I've considered are: mixing bluecoats with redcoats freely as they belong to the same naval force (but what about the flags then?) or dividing them according to ranks, for instance: red coats for officers, blue coats for lower ranks.

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Mister_phes, could you give some links to where you've found these pictures (I mean those of real uniforms)? I'd like to broaden my historical knowlegde about those naval forces we are discussing, perhaps you know some good websites too?

You'll be finding links to plenty of information at The Costumes Manifesto...

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both are british, red guys are the marines, and blue guys are the naval army

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There could be almost be a poll...

a) Those who think the blue coats are French and just the red are British

b) Both blue and red coats are British

c) Completely different view beyond all comprehension.

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Methodology number one: Blue is British imperial navy (at least historically). I'd then probably assign red to a marine expeditionary unit. THe only think I'm not absoutely certain what how it would fit in would be the last years of the imperial armada, which has a definite spanish influence in armor and costume

red is marine exp. unit (remember the nickname "lobster"?)

blue... hm... isn't that limited to officers and lower ranker staff (midshipman,...) in brittish navy?

there is "a the spanish influence" because tlc mixed two historical eras in one theme. the spanish soldiers refer to the 15-16th century; the brittish troops refer to 18-19th century.

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The British were there in the 1600's though...

They colonised Barbados in the late 1620's... Siezed Jamaica from the Spanish in 1655... They colonised Antigua in 1667... British Virgin Islands annexed in 1672... The 17th century was a big year for the British in the Caribbean.

By the way, I'm conquistador now! The English are my foes! They ceased so many colonies from Spain. I want REVENGE!!! :^D

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So, assuming we have The British, the Spaniards and perhaps the French in the Pirate line, what other nationalities do you think they could introduce had the theme been reintroduced? Or what other nationalities would you create (have you created) on your own, perhaps you have any ideas how they should look like (using existing minifig parts)?

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obviously the Dutch! the VOC (Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie) is legendary for it's international trade. the company even had her own army, and probably was the most powerful entity in Europe in the 17th century (the dutch call this the Golden Age)! so i can see a set with a huge transport ship accompanied by a smaller military vessel,...

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As far as I'm concerned there's only British and Spanish so that leaves room for the French, Dutch and Portuguese.

There could also be non European sub-themes like the rastafarians or the Mayans, Incas, Aztecs and Olmecs (which the lovely Spanish so kindly wiped out). But I'd say the Indigo Islanders were Olmecs since they seem a bit out of place and little is known about them.

We would almost create an entirely new thread for this discussion... Providing there are enough interested contenders... But I see potential for this discussion to go away beyond the topic of this thread. Well I hope anyway...

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It would even be theoretically possible to add in Americans, who were fighting pirates in the late 1700/early 1800's. I forget the name of that one vessel off the coast of Florida...

Akkh

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I was contemplating adding the Americans... But decided not to. It would just conflict too much with Western |-D

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Do you have any ideas (or pictures) how those new nations should look like?

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Yes I do. They're pictures from other sources. I don't have them right now but I'll find them later - hopefully.

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I just want to remind you of this thread. Does anyone have any images of other nations you'd like to see sailing on Lego's seas? I feel a strong urge to create some custom minifigs representing other nationalities and give them one or two of my ships... :)

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Yes! Do it! Do it!

It would be good to have someone other than me posting images in this thread!

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I believe that the Blue Soldiers were the French and the Red were the British. But either way, there certainly isn't enough of either so if you can mold both of them into one force, do it.

I wish Lego would kickstart the Pirate Line again. Me and my Pirate-Loving Friend have talked about the possibilities.

I think it would be incredible if Lego released some Quality pirate sets. They could either have the French/British/Spanish, although the British or French would make the most sense, as I believe the Spanish's power was sinking in the Carribean by the mid 1700's(I could be TOTALLY wrong... if I am please correct me :D )

If Lego doesn't want to use real world nations anymore, they could just make a generic "Imperial Power" group, which would just HAPPEN to look exactly like the British/French/Spanish. LoL

I think that this time though, the IMPERIAL FLAGSHIPS should be bigger than the Pirate ships, as this would be the more realistic case. An ideal release for ships would be...

1 Very Large Imperial Galleon (Size of the Skulls Eye Schooner, Black Seas Barracuda, ect). It would be very 'Imperial' looking with the fancy decor, and come with a load of sea-ready sailors, grunts, officers and one admiral/captain and governor.)

1 Large Pirate Ship (Size of Carribean Clipper) A big ship which is loading with more cannons than it looks like it should have, ragtag decor... you know the deal

1 Small Pirate Ship (Renegade Runner size)

1 Merchant Ship (Renegade Runner size) Just a generic ship with sailors and neat cargo.

This is just my ideal release for ships... not bases, ect

This makes me depressed that I know Lego will never do this... I love how alot of new Lego Torso's look... so the new Pirates/Imperials would have awesome torso's either way...

I know this wasn't really on topic... but I had to get it off...

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I agree with you. The soldiers, whatever they were called, have always suffered from lack of big ships in the Lego world. It was because the theme was called Pirates and the bad guys were the main characters and were supposed to be greater power. But it was innacurate and I didn't like it. I think it would've been most fun if all sides had both huge and small ships. I also think they should release a big merchant ship, not the size of the Renegade Runner, more like the Barracuda...

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I agree with you. The soldiers, whatever they were called, have always suffered from lack of big ships in the Lego world. It was because the theme was called Pirates and the bad guys were the main characters and were supposed to be greater power. But it was innacurate and I didn't like it. I think it would've been most fun if all sides had both huge and small ships. I also think they should release a big merchant ship, not the size of the Renegade Runner, more like the Barracuda...

I've decided to put my response to this in The Pirate Theme ended... just so things are in the right threads...

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Basically, Lego wanted to give some diversity to the Imperial Navy. Lego knew as good as anyone, that the uniform in the British Navy in the period of colonial expansion (that the Imperials were based on) was the blue that we see associated with the first line of Imperial Soldiers that Lego introduced in 1989. The red uniform we later see with the Imperial Guards line Lego introduced in 1992, was the uniform of the British army. More specifically, ground infantry. Lego mixed it up a bit though - the red were the soldiers. The blue were just sailors. Every ship in the British Royal Navy carried a crew of 'Red-coat' soldiers proportional to the total population on board. In the interest of adding a bit of flair to the Imperial sets, Lego changed all the colours from the blue to the red. They didn't want to give any particular association with any specific nation, so that's why they changed up the colours in the flags and the sails. In any case, all of the Imperial sets, both Soldiers and Guards are my favourite line ever. I use the Red-coat soldiers as soldiers and the Blue-jacket sailors as sailors. But that's just me. I say Lego should create new Imperial and Pirate sets with the same building quality that the sets of the early nineties had. But this time they should include Red-coats as soldiers, Blue-jackets as sailors, and the flags and sails of the Imperial Navy should include some kind of mix of red and blue. Who's with me?

-Ashton

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Aye, I'm with yer!

I never thought about putting red and blue in the same set, but it does make sense. Not sure about the flag though. Does it need to be the same colour as soldiers? But then, if we were to look at the Union Jack its red, blue and white...

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