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I notice there is less resistance against using non-Lego solutions in this board than in the past.
 
Spoiler

I originally described the last as follows: "Someone recently posted a miniatur version of 8865 with custom suspension 'because there was no Lego solution available'. There was praise all along, and not a word on using custom parts or illegal builds.". But this was not actually the case, and was unnecessarily harsh on the builder, who took offense to this. Rightly so, because I was speaking from emotions, without checking the facts, so I wrote things that weren't true. I apologize to all those who felt disadvantaged.

I thought this was a forum about Lego, where people use Lego pieces to solve problems, without "cheating". I remembered the days where if you used a modified piece your MOC wasn't even considered a Lego model by many people. Nowadays, there's hardly mention on this and it sometimes feels that I'm the only person here that still cares, that can't appreciate a model if the builder copped out somewhere. My rule still is, If you can't do it in Lego, then you can't do it. And a model that doesn't do it is better to me than a model that does it by cheating. After all, if you're allowing A, then why not allow B, and then C, all the way to Z and if that happens, what are we even doing?

 
I understand 3D printing has something to do with it, but isn't the whole sport that you have a limited set of pieces that you'll have to do with, and that that means that some things can't be done? Isn't that the whole idea? I mean, if everything can be done, where's the achievement in doing it?
 
Having done my bit of a rant, I am curious to see how others are seeing this.
 
Have others also noticed a trend over the years? What are your opinions on it? What are your opinions on purism vs. using non-Lego solutions? Do you use non-Lego, and if so, why? What's OK to you and what's not, and why? Custom string? Custom stickers/prints? Custom tyres? Custom coloring? Custom springs? Can you define a limit that makes clear what's within and what's outside? If it's not clear, how do you handle the gray area? If you're an extensive user of non-Lego solutions, why are you into Lego instead of scale modeling in general?
 
What are your opinions about all this?
Edited by Erik Leppen
I said things that weren't true and someone corrected me on this

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Interesting post Erik, and yes I thought about it. First, I'm not interested too much into perfect model shaping, I'm ok with models that do not perfectly resemble the real thing, as I'm much more interested in the "technic" aspect of a construction. I agree with you on the beauty of the challenge of building something and limiting ourselves to just real Lego parts, and so far the only thing I've allowed myself is a buwizz device. Why? Because as much as I'm eager to learn new technic tecnique, I was eager to learn what would have been possible by using this device on an RC model. I'm not interested in custom parts just because they are better than Lego ones, like rims for example. I can re-use one thousand times the ones I have from my Lego sets. Truth said, I mostly do MOD, not MOC, so maybe my opinion is biased by this.

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Lego limits me and at the same time he amuses me in order to overcome his limitations, if I modify a piece for another purpose I would move on to another hobby. I have my exceptions to the rule, rubber strings and axles, I don´t mind cutting one of 12 to have one of 11 if I need it.

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What dellock6 and jorgeopesi say (with the exception of cutting an axle)

I have lots of lego, most of it studded. The studdless sets I have do give me many more parts and some options, but making it all work together is a challenge at times - the challenge I like!

Also, I dont buy Lego, if I haven't got it, I work around it. I am too tight to buy specific pieces (and also do plenty of other things so Lego time is limited to the wet season usually)

I would like a better ability to make steering axles with drive (4wheel drive) without using portal axles that are on my unimog, but I dont have those parts so I worked around it.

I too prefer to work on the technical aspect rather than what the end result looks like, coming from a studded lego history, more imagination is needed!

I have used aftermarket string though - bricklayers line works well for my cable car hoist, has a bit of streatch though cheaper than spectra

I dont post too much really because a) limited build time, b) I feel old that I dont have much of the newer stuff and c) the building is more interesting for me.

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I am not a designer but I build a lot and I don't build any models which use non Lego parts.  The only exception I have made is using 3rd party yellow hose (like lego pneumatic) for the BMW DTM.  I personally feel colouring / chroming lego parts is acceptable but only when absolutely necessary.

One exception I would probably make is custom wheel covers, for instance custom Ferrari F40 wheel covers for the 1:10 scale version.

I don't believe in designing and making parts that you need because you can't find a solution in Lego.

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I should have also added that I get a little frustrated when people ask :-

a) how do i do this? b) how can I get the build plans for that?

figure it out your self! learn to think and try to work out how somebody did something or how something works. example sheves on a crane. I had this problem years ago, before the internet and so had to think about it, study the problem and then I remember how the sheaves work like gears and realised that there is a gear ratio applicataion there.

I dont want to get too derogatory on people, but with the ready easy access to the internet, it is EVEN EASIER to research projects and see how stuff is done in the real world, but my prefered way is to get upclose and personal with actually equipment. About 8 months ago I happened to be a yacht marina and near by were some articulated trucks parked up. I spent about 30 mins crawling under them and around them taking pictures seeing how it all fits together, how the axles are mounted and suspended, the Watts link and Panhard links (yeah, I named dropped there because some will know what they are, others will look them up and the others that may not even read this thread, wont look them up)

I probably spend more time thinking and researching than actual building, because by then I know how I would build it and as most of my thinking happens on either an airplane ride or a motorbike trip, I am usually there by the time I have it mostly figured out!

 

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I am mostly purist, but I think that gif you are gonna make a modded MOC, make it all or nothing. If you supply instructions, find a purist way to do so. I do own a 3D printer (that kinda sucks, it can't print ball joints), but I have been trying to avoid using it for MOCs.

Edited by TechnicRCRacer

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Great topic. I initially was a 'purist on the fence'. But then one day, I decided to cut a differential and use its 2 clutch gears to open up options for a transmission.

This went up a notch as last week, I got a 3D printer (nothing fancy) and now am seriously contemplating the idea of 'custom' parts. As to my 'view' on using 'custom' parts, definitely yes, as those help extend (push forward) what one can do with the standard assortment of parts.

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I think the same way as @Hay Ewe. I only buy parts when necessary. I recently had to buy parts for a project, but I bought in lots, not specific. This way, you could get parts cheaper, and maybe extra parts you will eventually need.

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So far, I have only two objectives: (1) enjoy the exploring/designing/building/optimising process, and (2) create something that is highly playable (in terms of speed) and durable, to be able to last for months (at least), or until I decide to embark on something new.

To meet (1), I chose Lego and I tend to use as much pure Lego as possible due to its versatility. However, to meet (2), I have used some non-Lego parts (mainly to replace the PF components).

In future, if my objectives change (e.g. to build instructions? to compete in contests? to build highly authentic and detailed display sets? etc.), or as TLG comes out with new/better parts, I’ll probably adopt a different position along the pure / non-pure spectrum.

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I use 3d printed parts, non-lego tires, 3s lipo batteries, a Pololu TRex DMC, a Traxas 2.4 GHz radio, and sometimes even my SBrick.  

I do not alter parts (generally) and I do not use Kragle.  I also strive to keep the non-lego parts to a minimum in my MOCs.  If I can 'make it happen' with lego, then I'll have no need to resort to non-lego.  I'll try numerous iterations of a lego design and only if they have all failed do I look at non-lego solutions.

I'm not a purist by any measure, but do understand it.

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what's your timeline history like? The last 10 years got a huge pile of connectors for example that never used to exist before that. Are you purist if you only use parts before some particular period? What if you make or modify some piece that turns up in a production set next year? Is your previous solution now null and void? Are you more of a hero if you can use a minimalist parts selection? Do you become a legend if you can make an RC sewing machine using nothing more than 1x2 technic bricks and 4L axes?

I make a habit of grinding teeth of old connectors to make smooth x44 units. The reason is that i get get toothed ones for a couple of cents instead of 50-100 times as much for the smooth one. Yes, it's modifying parts, but it still achieves an aim you could achieve by being a purist.

Also, regarding your first bullet point since i was one of those involved, how do you get a pulley to spin on a bar? mine are all friction fit into axle holes and you can't get a low friction way of mounting them without slop either, since they are also friction fits into the 1/2 pin or similar.

Edited by bonox

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1 hour ago, AndyCW said:

I use 3d printed parts, non-lego tires, 3s lipo batteries, a Pololu TRex DMC, a Traxas 2.4 GHz radio, and sometimes even my SBrick.  

I do not alter parts (generally) and I do not use Kragle.  I also strive to keep the non-lego parts to a minimum in my MOCs.  If I can 'make it happen' with lego, then I'll have no need to resort to non-lego.  I'll try numerous iterations of a lego design and only if they have all failed do I look at non-lego solutions.

I'm not a purist by any measure, but do understand it.

I'm kinda surprised this is the first post to even graze the Sbrick/BuWizz discussion.  I tend to lean towards the purist side of things but my recent experience with the BuWizz (full disclosure: non Li-po owner, and BuWizz + buggy = win) and I will never have an issue going that route over a V1 IR receiver.  Is that a lesser level of modfication?  What ab third party tires? 

I recently purchased third party insturctions for a certain rocket launching tuck that called for hacking some pieces by page 3, I just tossed them right there.   Is that hypocritical?

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I am a purist and I also see a growing trend of non-purism, but not significant. Apart from SBrick which made it in the legal zone for most AFOLs, even our contests allow or encourage the usage of it, and I still don't know what to think about this. Especially from the popularity point of view. Even in the AFOL community, remote models get much more attention, and SBrick for that become the default solution (using PF IR nowadays makes your model "lame") so you have to be non-purist to get some attention and I'm not very happy about that because I'm an attention whore :tongue:

My biggest problem with non-purism that it's a slippery slope, so I stick to rules to avoid the uncomfortable feeling that I'm slipping away from my hobby slowly (instead of just abandoning it and moving to the other one I'm slipping towards ). So my rule is to use only existing parts (I know, Lego itself invents new parts every year). Also to use current parts which is a bit harder to follow, but there are some obvious parts I will never use (toothed bushing for example).

Or dunno... I'm losing interest anyway...

EDIT: also I think of Lego as a form of art. The small details and solutions what makes it interesting, not perfect shaping and filling the gaps of the bodywork or high performance at whatever cost. That's why I'm on the fence with Dogald's Aston Martin. It's so good (the best looking Lego supercar I've seen, and even the body is not about filling gaps with whatever pieces) that it's not as interesting as a Lego model for me any more.
That's also a thing observed on a Lego exhibition a few days ago: AFOL models are so realistic (I'm talking about mostly the city theme) that they become totally uninteresting and bald. At the same time I still love the official modular buildings so it's not a general apathy.

Edited by Lipko

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I could say, that I'm purist. Only bad thing I have done, i disasambled once shock absorbers, and used only halfe of them

800x683.jpg

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Honestly whenever I've tried to use 3rd party parts they got broken, or they were not of acceptable quality, so only manipulation that was made by me (so far) was not to use complete turntable (did not assemble it 4 times), just side with gear because I needed big gear for this model. And of course few times I've "stuffed" LEGO tires to make them thinner and bigger in diameter like here...

(I use link because images are way to bit to post them here directly...)

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I only use common string, if original LEGO string is not long enough.

I also use my own fabric for sails for sailboats (that reminds me, it is a long time since I built last sailboat)

Otherwise no 3rd party wheels, no 3rd party tires, no Sbrick, no modification of LEGO parts, no 3D prints, no non-LEGO parts.

I even think buying parts I do not have at the moment is "cheaty-shortcut". I build with what I have, if I do not have a part, I redesign. That is my personal standard, I do not judge other peoples MOC by this view, it is just standard I pushed onto myself.

So I guess I am purist.

Also: I noticed recently on some MOC (system bricks) on rebrickable or here, people present MOCs where some bricks are just attached (better to say just put to the position) there by some magic (gravity or glue?)

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its an interesting question, the one reason I love lego is you can view someones MOC and know you can recreate it as its a standard set of parts

no need for a machine shop/ 3d printer, But yes I do love what efferman has created on shapeways which just ups the realism and playability of lego!

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9 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

Someone recently posted a miniatur version of 8865 or some other old set, with custom suspension "because there was no Lego solution available". There was praise all along, and not a word on using custom parts or illegal builds.

That would be mine 8865. It's custom suspension from actual Lego parts... And more importantly (!!!) I gave a solution with rubber bands, so before you comment, I'd suggest reading the topic first. 

I agree it isn't what Lego intended, to disassemble a part to only use the spring, but I think it's more in a grey area than absolutely illegal.

I first saw this type of suspension used years ago by piterx on one of his small builds. Iirc most people didn't mention it being illegal then either. In fact, they found his solution very creative, because the parts were still 100% Lego and could be restored to a fully functional normal Lego spring. 

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1 hour ago, J_C said:

I only use common string, if original LEGO string is not long enough.

I also use my own fabric for sails for sailboats (that reminds me, it is a long time since I built last sailboat)

Otherwise no 3rd party wheels, no 3rd party tires, no Sbrick, no modification of LEGO parts, no 3D prints, no non-LEGO parts.

I even think buying parts I do not have at the moment is "cheaty-shortcut". I build with what I have, if I do not have a part, I redesign. That is my personal standard, I do not judge other peoples MOC by this view, it is just standard I pushed onto myself.

So I guess I am purist.

Also: I noticed recently on some MOC (system bricks) on rebrickable or here, people present MOCs where some bricks are just attached (better to say just put to the position) there by some magic (gravity or glue?)

Yes, some hyped builders do these hovering bricks techniques. I think many of these models are simply not assembled, just puzzled together for photo making. I don't consider these Lego hobby models, but photo hobby materials instead (still, they are awesome). Or just some parts not attached to anything, just held there by gravity.

Also, there is the "fake stud technique", when you cut tubes and hoses to 2x stud height to attach bricks to eachother upside down. I don't like this technique at all (not only illegal, but I don't think that's firm enough for Lego standards).
All these techniques mean unplayable, ungrabbable models and considering that Lego is a toy after all, this is non sense in my opinion.

A last thought: Just because we don't point out every illegal or not appealing solutions we see, doesn't mean we agree with them. (and yup, taking out the spring from the shock absorber is also a no for me).

Edited by Lipko

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After creating some MOCs, and built them both digitally and real, I realized that I am purist, although I am friend of third party tires.

First of all: just like @Erik Leppen wrote, much more fun, and keeps the mind busy in a challenging way, than find a third party workaround (like 3D printed parts) - feels like giving up, only exception is maybe experimenting. Many times I feel with 3D printing, that the parts are so specialized for one purpose, that it could be called Playmobil, or other non-buildable toys...

If I build a MOC, I am here in the forum not only to get, but also to add value, see: to share it. If I share, than it must be able to be built by anyone - purists, non purists, children, adults, whoever has widely available LEGO parts. If it is buildable, it must be as solid as just possible - no tricked or poor connections. Also buildability and optimization of the parts are another important aspects, and make a project complete for me. (Remove unnecessary parts, less color variety, so once one needs to place a Bricklink order for that MOC, than it is more effective) All in all: my main drive is, that anyone should be able to enjoy the build as much as I do.

I learnt a lot since my buggy - with wich I was not completely sure to share first, as I did not found it good enough. Meanwhile I checked couple of MOC reviews, and I realized, that damn, it is just as good, or even better - as it doesn't falls apart by a single touch. :tongue:  But I hinted the weak points as well, I feel it is the correct way. Some might be able to improve (and it happened luckily). That's why I really appretiate the WIP topics, although I am a lonely loner on a lonely road... alone (design-wise), others can offer creative and fresh solutions for a problem, coming from a different point of view - still by using LEGO parts only.

Still, I like to use the material and structural properties of LEGO parts, example: using axles as torsion bars for suspensions, or using LEGO tires turned inside out in system builds or at buildable figures. Can this be done without injuring or creating permanent deformation in the part? Use it!

15 minutes ago, Lipko said:

Yes, some hyped builders do these hovering bricks techniques. I think many of these models are simply not assembled, just puzzled together for photo making. I don't consider these Lego hobby models, but photo hobby materials instead (still, they are awesome).

This is the art part of / with LEGO for me, I don't consider them as MOCs, and yes, some of those are real ART.

 

Edited by agrof

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A very interesting discussion topic.

I have used 3D printed parts in the past to achieve a MOC due to space constraints but with the advent of new Lego parts i.e connectors, the new worm gear, large gear rack quadrant, it is now possible to build them using Lego parts only.

One thing I would love Lego to have is more curved parts such as beams & quadrants.

I am attempting with my current build of a BCE to use only Lego parts but this leaves a conundrum: 
End result is not functional or if modify a part it can be fully functional. At the moment I intend to explore every possibility to keep the BCE MOC 100% Lego and get it working.

I have been to several Meccano exhibitions and even the most die hard Meccano builders sometimes use 3rd. party or modified parts.

I like the challenge of using only Lego parts as it keeps the brain active !!

Doug

 

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Up until my large scale RC models, I was purist simply because I did not have the means to acquire or make custom parts, I maybe cut an axle once or twice, and it always made me feel bad afterwards. It didn't feel genuine. I built with what I had and made the most of it. A lot of my Lego creativity was cultivated in that period. Since then, my collection increased dramatically, and I started to take on larger ideas. I found that I was always drawn towards vehicles, and making them as realistic and practical as possible. This quickly lead to my conclusion that there is a clear limit to what Lego parts can handle, and I danced around that limit for quite some time - I still do today. When I began my series of large scale RC vehicles, there were many prototypes created that simply ate up Lego pieces during operation even after dozens of purist re-designs. I decided, for the sake of the pieces, to look towards custom batteries, electronics, modded pneumatic suspension, 3D printed parts, etc. I was simply bored with playing around at the limit of purist design, since my concerns have always been for high performance practical operation. Still, I only use it where I know purist solutions will not satisfy the goals. In a future project, I will abandon buggy motors and use some hobby grade motor. Why? Because I successfully completed 5 iterations of a vehicle using 4 buggy motors, and I've exhausted all the options, all the techniques, and I seek better performance.

Why not quit Lego and move on to hobby RC if I care more about performance than these perceived 'rules'? Because Lego is still cheaper, allows for modular, re-usable construction, and provides a challenge given the weaknesses of plastic. But most of all, it's my hobby and I do as I please. A lot of people enjoy my creations, but I know there are some that don't count my work as legitimate. So be it, I'm doing it for myself, I simply share it to get feedback or to help others attempting similar projects. I respect purists, though. We're all having fun in the same hobby, after all.

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2 hours ago, J_C said:

I even think buying parts I do not have at the moment is "cheaty-shortcut".

I postulate that you also breathe only the air from inside the Lego pieces bags ;) Seriously though, it's a very interesting issue and Erik has a point here. I think we can distinguish various degrees of non-purism, a few examples I can think of, in ascending order of "heresy":

1. custom stickers
2. custom-chromed Lego pieces
3. custom remote-control systems (SBrick and such)
4. custom power supplies (BuWizz)
5. custom tires on Lego rims
6. custom lighting (Brickstuff, Lifelites)
7. 3D-printed pieces
8. painting Lego pieces
9. cutting/gluing Lego pieces
10. modified Lego electronics (e.g. gutted 8878 batteries)
11. third-party motors

Personally, I can go up to point 7 just fine in justified cases (wheel covers are a good example where it's hard to get good results with Lego pieces but quite easy to do so with 3D printing) but not beyond. Perhaps it would be funny to write something like a Lego purist's 10 commandments: thou shalt not chrome and so on ;)

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@Sariel Hilarious :laugh: :thumbup: Good point, there are some clear levels to this madness, and it makes sense to rank these 'offenses' based on their impact on a model and to Lego pieces. Sort of a 'how low can you go' scale :wink:

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